106 replies to this topic

[-Teiwaz-]

To Alzoc, if us MWO fans make you sick...go away, we do not need you nor want you here!! Also where did you get your secret knowledge that MWO would turn into P2W?

[Marcus Cvellus]

Like i said, we should wait and see.

[Magnificent Bastard]

People are still discussing Pay to Win? Let's talk about something that will actually have an effect on MWO... like Squatches.

[Lt Shortcut]

lol

You amuse me, peasant.

[Zephox]

Funny cuz its true ^^

[Akaryu]

hopefully your right dont want paying for things to amount to a great deal easier obtainment of a few choice hard to get weapons or mechs is fine but nothing to dramatic.

[Breach]

You can't buy skill. I imagine this is going to be a lot like Team Fortress 2, you can buy new weapons but they are not any better than the other, just different with pluses and drawbacks.

[Douglas Reichel]

Alzoc, on 19 July 2012 - 10:16 AM, said:

Don't dream too much
Maybe MWO won't be p2w on the beginning but it will certainly on long run.
Stop idealizing this game. It is a free to play with a good gameplay nothing more, nothing less.
Still a free to play so the p2w system will come don't worry.
Can't you just enjoy the gameplay?

And one more time, please before spiting on WoT or any other game, please play it for more than 3 hours.
Gold ammo gives you better pen true. But its at much shorter range mean that will have to get close and will probably be dead before it happens.

Have a nice day and sorry for the english.

So...your entire position is based not on any actual indications from the developers or the nature of the game itself, but rather pure cynicism. You expect it to be p2w solely because all games are that way now, is that it? Except for the wealth of games which are not p2w. Loathe though I am to admit it, League of Legends is not p2w. You can't buy anything with money that makes your summoner or the champions you use any "better" than those of individuals who don't pay. Thus far, nothing in MWO gives any reason at all to believe that they will sell specific weapons, items, or variations of others that are superior stat-wise to what free players will have access to. Your claim holds no water.

WoT is very much a p2w game. Someone who invests money in the best weapons, items, and tanks available does have an advantage over those who play for free, and that's what p2w means. Can they still be beaten? Sure, but not without excessive and unfun difficulty, and generally only if they're horrible players in their own right. P2w doesn't mean money ends the battle, it means you get stuff that's so much better than what's available for free that all things being equal, no free player could possibly beat you. And WoT is definitely that. And I play it casually, by the way. I just finished all research on my T18 Tank Destroyer, and am saving up to move to the next tier of TDs, accelerating my crew's training while I do so.

It's simple, a game is p2w if it offers items or other services for money wherein the player is granted significant stat boosts during gameplay over players who do not pay. It doesn't matter if those advantages are slight, or overwhelming, because in the ends it's the same, all else being equal, the paying player will always win as a result. That, is bad game design, period. It doesn't always make a game bad overall, but it is always a bad design element.

And again, you still have precisely zero credible cause for claiming MWO will be a p2w game. I concede that it's possible, but there's no way to make a determination of whether it will or not at this point, nor even the probability of such.

[Alzoc]

My post was based on my experience on "f2p" games and it makes a long times that I don't trust anything that comes from a dev' mouth.
Of course they have nice intentions for this game, they want to avoid the p2w or the pay to grind techs faster, they want the best gameplay for their game. Like any dev in facts. But! because their is a but their is money behind that game, a company behind the devs and they want that game to make them money.

Douglas Reichel, on 20 July 2012 - 02:57 AM, said:

Thus far, nothing in MWO gives any reason at all to believe that they will sell specific weapons, items, or variations of others that are superior stat-wise to what free players will have access to.

Edited by Alzoc, 20 July 2012 - 04:52 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Alzoc, on 20 July 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

My post was based on my experience on "f2p" games and it makes a long times that I don't trust anything that comes from a dev' mouth.
Of course they have nice intentions for this game, they want to avoid the p2w or the pay to grind techs faster, they want the best gameplay for their game. Like any dev in facts. But! because their is a but their is money behind that game, a company behind the devs and they want that game to make them money.

You obviously have no idea about the current Dev Group, nor have you apparently seen how active the devs have been towards the community as a whole, listening to the community at large, and overall, having a deep love and care for the battletech universe.

Also, you have a whole 2 posts to your name, and have simply come here to troll, it's quite obvious.

1/10 for riling me enough to make me type out a post.

[Alzoc]

Sorry was still typing just wanted to check my quote and don't want to retype everything.

But my post said (shortly )

-Don't have the patience to teach how world works to naïves people.
That of course the devs have the game in their hands for now because you are in beta, but it will fall in the hand of a company as soon as it will be released (still I hope no because I liked the gameplay of the only MW I played and I don't want this game to live and die like the average f2p)

-Then I said that Douglas Reichel has no right to speak about WoT because he/she is so low in the game that he /she played it for less than 3 hours (from tier 1 to 2 take about three battles, 10 min each). Then explained him he were wrong on Premium WoT mechanism wich are for now the same than in MWO prem account to progress faster and founder package similare to premiums tanks (way more expensives than prem tanks but your choice). Please check my stats and tanks I own, Alzoc EU server.

-That fans (any kind) make me sick because they base their oppinion on nothing, and spitt to the face of any people who disagree with them.

So I think I'll just wait the release of the game, because I said it I like the gameplay and will laugh when the first p2w item will come.

If you want to dicuss further with me please do it by mp because if it's just to troll (for you Jade Kistune) by crying to troll it's completly out of topic
Once again have a nice day and sorry for the english

Edited by Alzoc, 20 July 2012 - 05:36 AM.

[Teranin]

oh come on, only 1/10? if he got you to post more then one reply he at least deserves a 3/10...

[Dimael]

Douglas Reichel, on 20 July 2012 - 02:57 AM, said:

WoT is very much a p2w game. Someone who invests money in the best weapons, items, and tanks available does have an advantage over those who play for free, and that's what p2w means. Can they still be beaten? Sure, but not without excessive and unfun difficulty, and generally only if they're horrible players in their own right. P2w doesn't mean money ends the battle, it means you get stuff that's so much better than what's available for free that all things being equal, no free player could possibly beat you. And WoT is definitely that. And I play it casually, by the way. I just finished all research on my T18 Tank Destroyer, and am saving up to move to the next tier of TDs, accelerating my crew's training while I do so.

Soo...T18 TD..that is..uhm..Tier 2. You need how many hours to reach this tank? Let's assume 1 or 2. You won't see that many Premium-tanks in this area of tier. You just need a little more experience in this game. You can't play this game one hour and think, you've seen everything and know everything about it.

No Premium-tanks are better than any other Elite-tank of the same tier. A Lowe or KV5 for example are not better than a full equipped Kingtiger. The only thing what really helps to reduce the effect of low skill in a match is Gold-Ammo. But this is also no P2W..it's just a minor help. If you know how to aim for weakspots there is no need for Gold-Ammo. I'm playing without it and I'm doing really fine.

There are users that even don't use Premium-Accounts and are driving Tier8+ tanks. They just need to make more runs in the Tier5/6 area to make the money, they need to maintain their Hightiertanks. Premium is no need to play successfully.

Oh...and just in case you think I've no idea what I'm talking about. My WoT-character: http://worldoftanks....559508-AkaRyuu/

[Phii Phy Pho Phum]

Alzoc, on 20 July 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

My post was based on my experience on "f2p" games and it makes a long times that I don't trust anything that comes from a dev' mouth.
Of course they have nice intentions for this game, they want to avoid the p2w or the pay to grind techs faster, they want the best gameplay for their game. Like any dev in facts. But! because their is a but their is money behind that game, a company behind the devs and they want that game to make them money.

There are two seperate types of Free to play games. One is the P2W format used by games like, most notably World of Tanks where there are options of gold ammo, gold consumables, ect. The other is like League of Legends where you can purchase XP and cash boost as well as new characters. The purchase of the characters however is also avaliable to the wretched poor masses as well through IG cash purchases.

From everything that I have been able to read the second option is the model chosen by the MW:O design team and as such I applaud them. While there are those that will get xyz mech faster because of addition of c-bill generating mechs and premium XP boosting accounts they are not holding aside anyone from being able to earn xyz mech - it'll just take a little longer. The longer the time the game has been released the lower the effect of Wallet Warrior (me) vs Welfare Warrior (poor unwashed masses).

In conclusion, I like alzoc am sorry for the English. (Especially those that come from Kent).

[Mattrixx]

This game is yet in the closed beta and it is railed as P2W. I'd say give the devs and the company benefit of the doubt. In MWO they've already stated you can buy any mech (yes, you read that correctly) with MC (real life cash) or C-bills (in-game cash).
And as I understand it this same also applies to all the equipment in the game as well.
So you can grind in-game and get the C-bills for it or you can dish out some cash and get it faster. Hardly would call it play-2-win just yet.
Most of the items they've promised for far to be real life cash are novelty items like skins on your mech or similar stuff into your cockpit.

As to WoT. I've played it, and yes, I've gotten the tier-8 premium tanks (KV-5) as well as the T14 of the tier-5 US line. I don't use gold ammo, and frankly I think it is a waste of money.
The tier-8 premium tanks are hardly super tanks. They seem to have more weak points then many other tanks of the same tear. Especially the KV-5 has a very nasty weak spot on it not only on its giant turret (that you can easily see, aim and shoot at even at a distance) but also on the very front of it too (looks like a little R2D2 droid, on the right side of the front of the tank). Aim for these spots and I can quarantee you'll start doing a lot more damage to the terrible KV-5 monster.
And I've got my tier-9 tanks in the game so I've been at it for a while.
I enjoy playing this tank game for the fast paced venting of pvp frustration. Sometimes recklessly and sometimes not so recklessly. And I use a lot of the tier-4 to tier-7 tanks still as well. Like the IS (tier-7 soviet tank) or the KV-2 (used to be just a KV) at tier-6.
The KV-5 is mainly to help me get more in-game money faster while my tier-9s spends it all, often even in a win.

Edit:
P.s. I don't use premium account all that often. Usually only when more then one of my little brothers is online and want to hook up at the same time.

P.p.s. And yes, I intend to get them hooked on MWO as well.

Edited by Mattrixx, 20 July 2012 - 06:28 AM.

[Thrael]

The game is only in beta and there is still no community warfare. As F2P game they need some money grab and premium accounts is only part of this story they sure will added many other things. I hope it will be something like hats in TF2 I mean visual bonuses. And maybe some tools/option that will easy your usual life in hangar/mechlab.
And bonus money from founder pack must be available as premium money(not c-bills). I hope at least.

[Adridos]

Alzoc, on 20 July 2012 - 05:26 AM, said:

If you want to dicuss further with me please do it by mp because if it's just to troll (for you Jade Kistune) by crying to troll it's completly out of topic

Once again have a nice day and sorry for the english

Doors are that way. ---->

Olevoire and have a nice day outside.

[Imagine Dragons]

Dimael, on 20 July 2012 - 05:37 AM, said:

Soo...T18 TD..that is..uhm..Tier 2. You need how many hours to reach this tank? Let's assume 1 or 2. You won't see that many Premium-tanks in this area of tier. You just need a little more experience in this game. You can't play this game one hour and think, you've seen everything and know everything about it.

Considering the tier, he was probably jaded when the german hotchkiss was roflstomping tier 2s...
Which has been "fixed" for awhile now.

[StainlessSR]

The way I see Pay to Win is;
Items/skills can be purchased that are stronger than Items that can be worked/forged/found/salvaged/made/learned/practiced. In MWO this would be along the lines of a cash purchased medium laser hitting harder/recycle faster/produce less heat, than one purchased with c-bills.

Or Specialty Mechs that can be cash purchased which would have more hardpoints/extra crits/extra armor than a c-bill mech of the same make, or conversely; Any bonus to hit/dam/heat/speed just for using a cash purchased mech.

Founders mechs do not fit neither of these. They have the same hardpoints and critical slots as any other standard varient of their make, they offer no bonus to hit/dam/heat/speed or anything else that would allow one to be better than another of the same player skill level.

As for the bonus that you do get with founders mech's, extra c-bills, are a nice gimme; however, they in no way affect combat in the game. "It allows you to go purchase *** faster than a non-founder can" will be heard but any item I would be able to purchase faster than a non-founder wouldn't allow me to ruthlessly pound him if he is, greater-than|equal to, my skill/luck.

With the exp bonus of the premium account, I can not offer an honest opinion on if the skills that you get will prove to have such a great game influence as to make this point moot or not. However, as things stand now, with more game-play time than myself, the FREE player is still able to gain the same skills that I will be able to, so again IMHoO this isn't P2W.

[Catamount]

I'm hardly the hardcore WoT player that some people are, but having a Russian Tier 8 and American Tier 6 (IS-3 and E8), I did play my fair share, and it was absolutely "pay2win". People seem to misunderstand what that means. "P2W" systems aren't systems that guarantee that one will win a given game, just because they pay money, but rather that they are guaranteed to win a greater percentage of the time, for a given amount of skill.

As for MWO, anyone who cites personal experiences with other games, or cynical views of human nature as evidence both hasn't looked at a very large sample of F2P games in general, and more to the point, clearly hasn't done their research on MWO, or Mechwarrior in general. This game's very nature precludes P2W mechanics. All weapons are available to everyone, and there is no "gold ammo" analogue, because the mechanics are essentially TT based, if with the inevitable, but equally-applied tweak. There is no "gold medium laser" either, because again, that's just not how BT/MW works. The same goes for mechs. We're using canonical variants, and they're ubiquitously available, and each has their own tradeoff. There's no "HBK 4PXXXXXXFIRINMYLASOREDITION" that only gold players will get. Why? Because that doesn't exist in BT.

The very way mechs and weapons are presented here precludes any obvious route to a P2W system even if PGI wanted one.