Mechwarrior Buddah, on 04 December 2015 - 03:34 AM, said:
meant to go to off topic and failed?
theres yer problem
Its not that now, especially when a 100 ton mech with all that momentum travelling 47-60 kph can be stopped by a ******* pebble
ugh
this is probably the biggest gripe (honestly truly folks) I've had with the game. They may not be "nimble" but seriously, I can't walk over the top of a toe high rock...?
Like I said neither impression is wrong we all have our own opinion of what feels correct. As for the underlined it is probably because a lot of the time a lot of these long time fans treat anyone that liked anything after 3025 as usurpers and anime loving freaks that dared to taint their beloved franchise by liking something that wasn't part of their chosen era. People on both sides of the fence tend to be vindictive and hold grudges for real and imagined slights, which leads to little sympathy from either side.
oh just stop dude. Saying "Mechs aren't able to move like you're describing" or "Your'e completely disregarding the entire premise behind the game of Btech with that idea" is hardly reacting in any way that you described here.
Yes us long-term fans love Btech. Most of us know that an exact interpretation of that TT game and rules is impossible. What we do, however, want is a game that feels, works, and reacts in similar ways to the TT game. I don't want nor do I expect MWO to be a straight up "sim", but the way this game began to develop was WAY to "arcadey" for my personal tastes and thsoe of many others of those long-term fans.
I'm also tired of anyone who's been in MWO or Btech for a long time now being represented as "bad" for MWO. I'd also like to point out that many of those "purists" are the ones who have doled out tousands and millions of dollars over the years to PGI. That doesn't mean they deserve any special recognition, it means that they are supporting this game just like you and every other player here. Not to mention (well I guess I am going to mention it after all lol) most of those "purists" have never, ever, EVER asked for the entire game to play like that. Most of them simply ask for a portion of the game to play like that as an option. (IE CW)
Stuff like your post does nothing but try to develop this rift between the player base. "Us vs. them" mentality. That's one of (although a minor one in my opinion) the reasons it can be hard for a company to develop a game of this type. PGI seems to be embracing options instead of restrictions thankfully when it comes to this type of thing.
Gas Guzzler, on 04 December 2015 - 02:00 PM, said:
Reducing the differential is fine, no issues with that, makes sense.
Its not about whether you have issues with it, its an objective decrease in efficacy. It's about if you have enough angular velocity to put your left arm between you and the incoming PPCs before they get to you. Skill is irrelevant once you make the decision to twist. You just do it, and your mech twists away as fast as it can.
Speed is a great advantage but in sports, speed can be negated by other factors. If speed was everything, younger, faster athletes would dominate the older guys but that doesn't always happen because the older vets are more experienced and can make up for the speed deficit with wisdom.
I mean, even in this game...you're not torso twisting at random times or waiting to see a shot before you twist, right? You time the cooldowns and a smart pilot can try to outwit you by delaying their shot until you turn back to fire. Maybe it was possible before to see a PPC bolt leaving the barrel and react but I'm not so sure about that these days (esp. with PPC velocity quirked mechs).
Madcap72, on 04 December 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:
Older re-post of what I did for another thread. Book number is on epub bud.
Book 1
"Wasps were most frequently used as 'Mech unit scouts. They were fast, relatively light-armed and armored, and extremely maneuverable. With the fusion-heated jump jets tucked into legs and angular back-mounted packs, they could leap up to 180 meters — six times their own length — firing down on ground targets from the air or gaining a clear view of the surrounding terrain."
Fast, maneuverable, jumpy.
"The 'Mech slid, rolled, brought its arms underneath it. The laser lay nearby, jarred from the monster's grasp when it fell. Grayson saw the Wasp's head swinging up, searching for the weapon, as he continued burst upon burst of fire at the machine's armor".
Human like maneuvering, rolling on the ground, push ups. More like a battle suit than a "lumbering walking tank".
Book 5
"3]By all accounts, the battle pitted two master Mech Warriors against each other. Kell did not retreat to a range where his LRMs would give him an advantage. Instead, he used his incredible agility to make his 'Mech a nearly impossible target, while using his fore and aft lasers to score random hits on his foe.
Yorinaga, as always, fought a self-possessed battle. He tried to concentrate his fire, as was his custom, on one part of his foe's 'Mech, but Kell's twisting and dodging made that difficult. Yorinaga used his medium and small lasers to keep Kell at bay while his PPCs cooled, and he staggered their use so that Kell could not advance while theWarhammer ran hot."
Heavies moving with agility, twisting and dodging making it hard to make hits.
"Justin saw the Rifleman's arms swing toward the sky. He planted the Centurion's left foot and cut sharply to the right. He raced straight in at the Rifleman's back, making himself an easy target. The Rifleman's arms snapped down easily and Wolfson brought all four weapons to bear on the suicidal Centurion.
One heavy laser washed the remaining armor from the right arm of Justin's 'Mech, locking the Centurion's shoulder in a tangle of fused myomer muscles. The second laser vaporized armor on the Centurion's left thigh. The right autocannon's hail tore armor from the Centurion's left breast, while its twin ripped jagged scars across the 'Mech's right thigh.
Undaunted by the damage the Rifleman had inflicted, the Centurion stiffened its left hand into a spearhead. Safely inside the firing range of the Rifleman's long arms, Justin hesitated just long enough for Wolfson to realize his error. Tightening the grip of his phantom hand, Justin stabbed the 'Mech's left hand into the Rifleman."
Mechs using balance to plant and change direction quickly while charging
So on and so forth, through multiple places in dozens of books this theme continues.
Once again, Mechwarrior/ Battletech is a make believe world of fiction, The MW games simulate that fictional world. Trying to match MW to the real world isn't going to line up 100%.
However, between the TT and lore and other cannon sources there are established parameters and characteristics. Mech X can go speed Y and so forth. The lore fleshes out where the rubber meets the road.
So, yea. Some mechs lumber around, some mechs are high speed death machines that can dodge weapons fire like a martial artist.
Just because something is canon lore doesn't mean it's well liked as a whole by the fan base. I mean...Jar Jar Binks is canon for Star Wars, right? I can't name a single person that liked him.
Lyoto Machida, on 03 December 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:
DBs are the hardest hitters in football as well...due to speed. People always say that assaults couldn't be knocked down by mediums or whatever but how fast is that medium moving?
I mean...this is a DB hitting an OL. Probably around a 100lb difference...
Yea, why believe math and science when you can just use visual perception and ignore all that complicated stuff. Like when people thought the world was flat.
Lyoto Machida, on 04 December 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:
Just because something is canon lore doesn't mean it's well liked as a whole by the fan base. I mean...Jar Jar Binks is canon for Star Wars, right? I can't name a single person that liked him.
Yet, just because it's not liked by imaginary people that may or may not like it, doesn't mean it's not relevant. Also your analogy to Jar Jar binks is flawed, that is different lore, a biological creature, and an individual, not an entire genre of machines.
Also, your analogy fails to recognize that Jar Jar Binks was the Sith Lord putting everything into motion, and that the fan base has the opinion it does because of the artistic direction taken not to reveal it. Seriously, google it.
Bottom line, your post has little relevance to my post.
Older re-post of what I did for another thread. Book number is on epub bud.
Book 1
"Wasps were most frequently used as 'Mech unit scouts. They were fast, relatively light-armed and armored, and extremely maneuverable. With the fusion-heated jump jets tucked into legs and angular back-mounted packs, they could leap up to 180 meters — six times their own length — firing down on ground targets from the air or gaining a clear view of the surrounding terrain."
Fast, maneuverable, jumpy.
"The 'Mech slid, rolled, brought its arms underneath it. The laser lay nearby, jarred from the monster's grasp when it fell. Grayson saw the Wasp's head swinging up, searching for the weapon, as he continued burst upon burst of fire at the machine's armor".
Human like maneuvering, rolling on the ground, push ups. More like a battle suit than a "lumbering walking tank".
Book 5
"3]By all accounts, the battle pitted two master Mech Warriors against each other. Kell did not retreat to a range where his LRMs would give him an advantage. Instead, he used his incredible agility to make his 'Mech a nearly impossible target, while using his fore and aft lasers to score random hits on his foe.
Yorinaga, as always, fought a self-possessed battle. He tried to concentrate his fire, as was his custom, on one part of his foe's 'Mech, but Kell's twisting and dodging made that difficult. Yorinaga used his medium and small lasers to keep Kell at bay while his PPCs cooled, and he staggered their use so that Kell could not advance while theWarhammer ran hot."
Heavies moving with agility, twisting and dodging making it hard to make hits.
"Justin saw the Rifleman's arms swing toward the sky. He planted the Centurion's left foot and cut sharply to the right. He raced straight in at the Rifleman's back, making himself an easy target. The Rifleman's arms snapped down easily and Wolfson brought all four weapons to bear on the suicidal Centurion.
One heavy laser washed the remaining armor from the right arm of Justin's 'Mech, locking the Centurion's shoulder in a tangle of fused myomer muscles. The second laser vaporized armor on the Centurion's left thigh. The right autocannon's hail tore armor from the Centurion's left breast, while its twin ripped jagged scars across the 'Mech's right thigh.
Undaunted by the damage the Rifleman had inflicted, the Centurion stiffened its left hand into a spearhead. Safely inside the firing range of the Rifleman's long arms, Justin hesitated just long enough for Wolfson to realize his error. Tightening the grip of his phantom hand, Justin stabbed the 'Mech's left hand into the Rifleman."
Mechs using balance to plant and change direction quickly while charging
So on and so forth, through multiple places in dozens of books this theme continues.
Once again, Mechwarrior/ Battletech is a make believe world of fiction, The MW games simulate that fictional world. Trying to match MW to the real world isn't going to line up 100%.
However, between the TT and lore and other cannon sources there are established parameters and characteristics. Mech X can go speed Y and so forth. The lore fleshes out where the rubber meets the road.
So, yea. Some mechs lumber around, some mechs are high speed death machines that can dodge weapons fire like a martial artist.
Lyoto Machida, on 03 December 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:
DBs are the hardest hitters in football as well...due to speed. People always say that assaults couldn't be knocked down by mediums or whatever but how fast is that medium moving?
I mean...this is a DB hitting an OL. Probably around a 100lb difference...
also, just to clear up this misconception, (sorry I missed this somehow earlier in the thread), That's a tight end, not an O lineman.
#83 Gerald Christian
Right, because it fills out what the inventors of the game envision it being like if a person was actually there, not shaking dice and playing with toy models.
Are you saying that it is better to NOT adhere to the original IP or what? So what if it's fluff, it's the fluff intended to flesh out the universe.
Locationclimbing Mt Tryhard, one smoldering Meta-Mech corpse at a time
Posted 04 December 2015 - 04:18 PM
Madcap72, on 04 December 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:
LOL, some people need to read the novels again, especially the Kieth and Stackpole books.
It's explicitly described, in detail, how mechs are able to move with speed, precision, and with good pilots grace.
Depending on size and layout, they can pivot, duck, roll and pop up, go prone, and replicate human movement.
Almost all the books are on Epub bud. Google, read, learn.
I have them all, have read them all, some close to a dozen times.
I also addressed that.
Go reread the relevant EARLY novels. Yes, they anime'd things later, but no, that is not their original portrayal. And again, go compare those novels you think tell all to the actual game rules that made "simple" things like jumping without falling a major accomplishment.
But for simplicity AND laziness sake, I'll just quote myself:
Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 11:50 AM, said:
mostly seems to be a matter of those who preferred the Battletech Universe before it jumped the shark.
Most original source text, and lore novels (1st Edition Housebooks, TRO 3205, Gray Death trilogy, Sword and the Dagger) painted a much more lumbering picture, as a bit of a "westernization" feel to the traditional Ballet Anime Mechs. While yes, laughable in terms of grasp of engineering and physics (of course, it was a game made in the early 80s, pre internet, with rules meant to allow customization but also to not get too bogged down they were somewhat generic) the lack of agility is pretty plainly seen in the actual TT game mechanics.
Research the piloting rules and rolls. Running, Jumping, Death from Above, Jump kicks (described thusly in the TRO 3025 WSP-1A Wasp entry: "With this maneuver, jump-capable light and medium 'Mechs could jump and smash their leg components into the head and upper torso of opposing units, hoping to cause more damage then they inflicted upon themselves."). modifiers for speed, running on pavement, turning at speed. So while not particularly scientifically accurate, Mechs could achieve good in line speed, but actual feats of "agility" were bloody difficult, and failed at least as often as not. And these were what you or I would consider SIMPLE actions, not complex gymnastics, or such.
NONE of them paint a picture of mechs running about like 30 ft tall pro athletes.
Later, in the literature, more and more Gundam crept in, along with "Stackpoling", and eventually due to the influx of anime in the 90s, the desire to save a sinking game company drove them to adopt totem mechs, Sword, claws, etc, and all sorts of abject silliness. And more and more flash was added to the writing to keep it fresh and exciting for the ADHD 90s Anime/Punisher/Wolverine loving masses.
The commentary is essentially thus: There are a million and one Gundam Mech games out there. Some of us would really like to see ONE game capture the just some of the original feel of Battletech again. In Closed Beta, things were originally much more lumbering. But even in CB there was a significant number who wanted to see the skill tree done away with because Mechs got too agile.
Apparently the Devs are at least partially in agreement, since they decided to reduce overall agility pretty much across the board.
I can only imagine the crying if they were ever able to reintroduce the delayed convergence, and heat affects (flickering HUD, possible ammo explosions before capping out heat scale, even more sluggish reflexes as the mech overheats, etc) that are part of actual Battletech.
Yes, there is also a group that prefer the "latter day battletech" (heck there are people who think MWDA was great). Point is, they've had their game, for MOST of the MW titles released. Why are people so biased against allowing the long time fans of the game actually have the game at least passingly resemble the one they've desired for so long (and tbh, the game the devs touted and promoted to get our founders money?).
More to the point, the agility hardly makes the game "unplayable" or whole classes DoA as some are crying (just like a huge number of MWO pilots suddenly developed motion sickness issues when jump shake was introduced. Which is odd, as motion sickness of that severity would have been triggered just by your average day piloting a jenner). It's that people don't want to have to adapt.
As for the "physics" arguments, the OP chose to "very incorrectly" try to use Handwavium Science Fantasy Physics to explain why our Mechs should be Pretty Pretty Ballerinas, so many of us used known and proven principles and laws of physics, engineering, etc, to show why that dog wouldn't hunt.
Long and short of the game, and mech agility, etc? Really it boils down to how the Devs nvision their stompy robots moving, nothing more, nothing less.
Yea, why believe math and science when you can just use visual perception and ignore all that complicated stuff. Like when people thought the world was flat.
So who are the hardest hitters in football in your opinion then? I know it's an arbitrary list but look at the guys listed in the top 10 here...there are no 300lb+ guys in there. Not even a single dude over 245lbs...
Average weight? 219lb...definitely not LB or DL weight.
Sandpit, on 04 December 2015 - 04:09 PM, said:
also, just to clear up this misconception, (sorry I missed this somehow earlier in the thread), That's a tight end, not an O lineman.
#83 Gerald Christian
Sorry to muddy up your misconception clearing but that's an offensive tackle (Eric Winston) getting lit up by Kam Chancellor. I had to watch the gif a few times to make sure it wasn't the tight end...look at who is snapping the ball. The OT pulls behind the TE and gets lit up.
Bishop Steiner, on 04 December 2015 - 04:18 PM, said:
I have them all, have read them all, some close to a dozen times.
I also addressed that.
Go reread the relevant EARLY novels. Yes, they anime'd things later, but no, that is not their original portrayal. And again, go compare those novels you think tell all to the actual game rules that made "simple" things like jumping without falling a major accomplishment.
Yea, that's why I pulled quotes from early novels. So, there ya go buddy.
If the OL is the equivalent of an Heavy or Assault Mech than the WR is the equivalent of a Light or Medium Mech. The Offensive Lineman weighs about twice as much as the Wide Receiver (306 to 156) and is only 0.36 seconds slower (4.65 to 4.29). Thus the WR will have a greater top speed than the OL but as we can see in the videos their acceleration is roughly equal. Granted I chose two very fast players at their respective positions, I think we can expect the Engineers designing Battlemechs to build them to the pinnacle of the human physique.
To further the information on the post (mind you I am addressing parts of it at random).
As of 3050, the tallest Battlemech is the Executioner at 14.8 meters tall, mind you this is also as of 1995; somewhere after that FASA was swapped out with "Wizkidz" and this is where the Battletech stuff got seriously out of whack and scales started hitting 20 meters or taller. The Atlas up until 1995, has frequently been stated between the sizes: 13.2 meters (low) and "just under 14 meters" (high).
This is also the original reason that Atlas concept art has a "large" head. In standard Atlases the pilot is seated with the nose as the pilot's traditional viewport when the main screen was down. In Dual Cockpit versions, such as the Atlas D-DC, the pilot and commander are squeezed in with the "Eyes" as the viewport should the system go down.
Mind you: Wizkidz also endorsed weapon concepts like this:
Anyone that knows ANYTHING at all about firearms would know that this weapon simply could not function in any meaningful form. And then the description of it goes on to claim it's a laser pistol when clearly it is not. (In other words, they are far from being consistent).
MWO's Hunchback is 13.6 meters tall.
In Battletech, the Hunchback is described as being so short and stocky (at around 9 meters tall) that it could not fit its ammunition internally. Thus, the ammunition is stored in a drum on the left side-rear of the mech for most models. The exception is in the HBK-4SP where the drum is mounted dead-center of the mech's rear in order to even-out reload times for both SRM launchers.
Going back to the Atlas, take note of the size of its missile launchers. The SRM-launchers are larger than the LRM launchers (which makes sense since according to many scattered pages of Sarna and confirmed in the tech handbooks), SRM-2, LRM-5, MRM-10, Streak SRM-2, and Mech Mortar/1 are all interchangeable on a Battlemech (for those hardcore enough for the "softpoint" system Battletech has in place on mech weapon swapping) within short order.
Also that SRM-4, LRM-10 MRM-15, Streak SRM-4, and Mech Mortar/2 are considered roughly the same size and interchangeable.
And in turn: SRM-6, LRM-15, MRM 20, Streak SRM-6, and Mech Mortar/4 are swappable.
Then: LRM-20, MRM-30, Mech Mortar/8 are swappable.
It should be noted that depending on which source: Arrow IV, MRM-40 and the Long Tom are considered to be too large to be easily swappable with any system (it seems the Catalyst editions lump them in as swappable with LRM-20s and thus can be changed out with the above. Sarna excludes any mention there.)
The specified measurements and scale of the typical LRM matches the Stinger FIM-92's warheads.
Similar is the 9k32 Strela-2.
Also keep in mind, even SRMs are man-portable as SRM-2s. (Mind you that's a total of 2 missiles fired in a 10 second time frame, doesn't necessarily mean they have twin launchers like these guys.)
Then again.... this is indicated as an SRM-2...by Wizkidz.
o.O;
If we jump back to the Atlas, it is stated it has a far-fire fast reload LRM-20 at 5 tubes, which lobs missiles 5 at a time over 10 seconds. The reason? The traditional Atlas designs did not have the room inside the Atlas for a 20 tune launcher. The hip-pack is its LRMs instead. Those that removed the SRM-6 rack could fit the LRM-20 with its proper 20 tubes, though these often get displayed as twin racks of 10 tubes such as on the Atlas C(omstar), K(urita), and S(teiner)2.
Going back to mech scales...
This is one of several images of a Thunder being swarmed. Some depict Elementals, which considering their size difference, still fits to about this scale (even if that Thunder is narrower).
The Wolverine here:
Which this reminds me to note that Battletech Tanks can match the weights of Battlemechs...and despite being wide can still fit on a single lane in traffic. So why the hell are MWO's mechs reaching over 17.6 meters (MWO Atlas)?
This art is painstakingly scaled.
Notice something about size? The actual artwork is done by WH Keith Jr., the very first Battletech author. Notice the size of the SRM tubes on the head? (Common misconception: The weight of a weapon system doesn't just include the 'launcher' or 'barrel', but the entire workings of the gun including the feeding mechanism, which sometimes reaches throughout the body of the mech to be able to pull ammo.)
Now take a look at the size of the head of this Dragon...
And the Dragons of BT.
The "Belly" of the Dragon gives room for the missile loading mechanism...and the pilot's legs. At the proper seating (chest-up visible from the 'glass'), the pilot sits comfortably inside this tiny mech. In MWO, the pilot can fit in the head -- which is almost identical in size and proportion to the BT Dragon... but the rest of the body has been drastically and needlessly enlarged).
----
Now, some people do wonder about the "wonky" BT scales, as sometimes light mechs are larger than mediums and heavies are sometimes smaller than mediums. It's true.
Ever wonder why the Locust is so goddamn skinny?
It's pretty simple, the Locust was built as an exceptionally tall (but lanky thin) scout in order to better see over ledges as well as to put its weapon systems up high for fighting infantry and pursuing vehicles. The exceptionally long legs are a great reason for why it can achieve speeds over 100 kph. It is frequently described as approximately 11 meters tall, (Timber Wolf is 12.6 meters tall, Direwolf is 12.3 meters tall).
Meanwhile the Flea (also 20 tons like the Locust) is barely over 8 meters tall...and bulkier.
Mind you the one thing the Flea has over its towering Locust friend...is torso twist.
Jenner is another tall, thin, lanky mech in BT. It also lacks torso twist.
This Mad Dog isn't far off in scale, either.
The Catapult is another victim of scaling. The reason the Catapult has such a huge body and tiny launchers is really quite simple: The Catapult's main design is barely 10 meters tall at the launchers.
Of course it needs to be mentioned that Catapults come in two varieties.
The stunted Catapult (classic). (This is a C4)
And the Stilted Catapult is often described as just over 12 meters tall. (This is a Stilted C1).
Both are 65 tons, both have the same armor amounts. Both lack torso twist. The advantages to the stilted version is being taller allows it to step over larger obstacles as well as hurl explosive death over taller cover. The disadvantages of the stilted version is that the materials constructing it are 'spread' more in terms of skeleton, muscle, and armor, meaning you had the same amount of armor/structure, but since it covers a larger area it is in essence 'thinner' or weaker. Also something about being harder to pilot while jumpjetting. But pfft.
This image shows a TSAR tank with 9 meter-tall wheels.
Also.. as I know it's also commonly misconceived:
Autocannons.
Keep in mind that AC calibers have quite a range, and that "higher caliber" means fewer shots to get the result due to larger bullets. AC/2s range from 25mm to 90mm. AC/5s range from 40mm to 120mm. AC/10s range from 80mm to 120mm...and are basically known for being able to fire twice as fast as AC/5s (sounds like a non-jamming UAC/5 to me). AC/20s range from (strangely) from 30mm to 203mm with the IS limit being 185mm...and supposedly a 203mm AC/20 requiring the mech to be stationary and braced to fire. (The only known 203mm AC of any sort in Battletech is mounted on the Ebon Jaguar / Cauldron Born, and is the closest thing to a single shot AC...and even then it is highly debated).
Quote
If a mech is built like a human and controlled by a human then it will perform like a human provided its skeleton can withstand the forces the myomers impart on it while under strain. The fact that Triple Strength Myomers do not tear a mech apart is evidence enough that normal myomer have no problems moving a mechs skeleton without damaging it.
TL;DR
Battlemechs are not the slow, lumbering machines you have been led to believe but are actually fast, agile, and capable of the kinds of complex maneuvers a human being is capable of.
edit*
please do not quote this whole post but only the parts you wish to address.
On to flexibility...
Battlemech movement capabilities feed heavily from the following animes: Fang of the Sun Dougram. (Linked video demonstrates an instance of how missing a perfectly stationary target is still possible in Battletech -- possibility of pilots passively evading attacks.) Mobile Suit Gundam (specifically, 08th MS Team) (Linked video gives an idea of how infantry, vehicle and mech interactions are intended to work in Battletech; it is important to note that MANY BattleMech designs in the 1980s versions of Battletech had mechs with hand-held weapons that they could drop and swap; Battlemaster, Thunderbolt, Wolverine are just a few). PatLabor (a police mecha anime which fueled the development of Agricultural mechs and much of BT's universe fluff). First vid demonstrates basic controls and movement (to which there is a glove set similar to it described in the Tech Manual's cockpit section). This second PatLabor clip shows the peril of fighting with a Rifle (or LBX) versus an Autocannon.
It also draws from dozens of others.
Battlemechs are capable of many things, from going into the Prone position
Hull Down (though this can be achieved a variety of ways)
And according to (PDF) Page 42 of the Technical Manual, BattleMechs can also perform handstands.
Oh, and the glove thing I mentioned about Patlabor -- right there in the same page.
Right, because it fills out what the inventors of the game envision it being like if a person was actually there, not shaking dice and playing with toy models.
Are you saying that it is better to NOT adhere to the original IP or what? So what if it's fluff, it's the fluff intended to flesh out the universe.
No it doesn't, it fills out fluff. The fact that you keep trying to make it into anything more significant than that is a bit silly. I've read all kinds of books regarding Star Wars. I've yet to be able to play a Star Wars game that gives me the "freedom" with the force that they had in the fiction.
Fluff is not relevant for rule discussion.
Lyoto Machida, on 04 December 2015 - 04:35 PM, said:
So who are the hardest hitters in football in your opinion then? I know it's an arbitrary list but look at the guys listed in the top 10 here...there are no 300lb+ guys in there. Not even a single dude over 245lbs...
Average weight? 219lb...definitely not LB or DL weight.
Sorry to muddy up your misconception clearing but that's an offensive tackle (Eric Winston) getting lit up by Kam Chancellor. I had to watch the gif a few times to make sure it wasn't the tight end...look at who is snapping the ball. The OT pulls behind the TE and gets lit up.
#73, not #83...watch the gif again. Or the video:
I stand corrected!
That's also Kam Chancellor who is widely regarded as one of if not THE best safeties in all of football. Taking a "1%" outlier as an example isn't the best basis
also, just to clear up this misconception, (sorry I missed this somehow earlier in the thread), That's a tight end, not an O lineman.
#83 Gerald Christian
Now I understand why you want battlemechs to be slowed down, was that video a little fast for you to follow?
Props to Madcap72 for digging up the references I was too lazy to look up, thanks man!
Koniving too for the tech manual and pics!
Edited by Homeskilit, 04 December 2015 - 05:04 PM.
To further the information on the post (mind you I am addressing parts of it at random).
As of 3050, the tallest Battlemech is the Executioner at 14.8 meters tall, mind you this is also as of 1995; somewhere after that FASA was swapped out with "Wizkidz" and this is where the Battletech stuff got seriously out of whack and scales started hitting 20 meters or taller. The Atlas up until 1995, has frequently been stated between the sizes: 13.2 meters (low) and "just under 14 meters" (high).
This is also the original reason that Atlas concept art has a "large" head. In standard Atlases the pilot is seated with the nose as the pilot's traditional viewport when the main screen was down. In Dual Cockpit versions, such as the Atlas D-DC, the pilot and commander are squeezed in with the "Eyes" as the viewport should the system go down.
Mind you: Wizkidz also endorsed weapon concepts like this:
Anyone that knows ANYTHING at all about firearms would know that this weapon simply could not function in any meaningful form. And then the description of it goes on to claim it's a laser pistol when clearly it is not. (In other words, they are far from being consistent).
MWO's Hunchback is 13.6 meters tall.
In Battletech, the Hunchback is described as being so short and stocky (at around 9 meters tall) that it could not fit its ammunition internally. Thus, the ammunition is stored in a drum on the left side-rear of the mech for most models. The exception is in the HBK-4SP where the drum is mounted dead-center of the mech's rear in order to even-out reload times for both SRM launchers.
Going back to the Atlas, take note of the size of its missile launchers. The SRM-launchers are larger than the LRM launchers (which makes sense since according to many scattered pages of Sarna and confirmed in the tech handbooks), SRM-2, LRM-5, MRM-10, Streak SRM-2, and Mech Mortar/1 are all interchangeable on a Battlemech (for those hardcore enough for the "softpoint" system Battletech has in place on mech weapon swapping) within short order.
Also that SRM-4, LRM-10 MRM-15, Streak SRM-4, and Mech Mortar/2 are considered roughly the same size and interchangeable.
And in turn: SRM-6, LRM-15, MRM 20, Streak SRM-6, and Mech Mortar/4 are swappable.
Then: LRM-20, MRM-30, Mech Mortar/8 are swappable.
It should be noted that depending on which source: Arrow IV, MRM-40 and the Long Tom are considered to be too large to be easily swappable with any system (it seems the Catalyst editions lump them in as swappable with LRM-20s and thus can be changed out with the above. Sarna excludes any mention there.)
The specified measurements and scale of the typical LRM matches the Stinger FIM-92's warheads.
Similar is the 9k32 Strela-2.
Also keep in mind, even SRMs are man-portable as SRM-2s. (Mind you that's a total of 2 missiles fired in a 10 second time frame, doesn't necessarily mean they have twin launchers like these guys.)
Then again.... this is indicated as an SRM-2...by Wizkidz.
o.O;
If we jump back to the Atlas, it is stated it has a far-fire fast reload LRM-20 at 5 tubes, which lobs missiles 5 at a time over 10 seconds. The reason? The traditional Atlas designs did not have the room inside the Atlas for a 20 tune launcher. The hip-pack is its LRMs instead. Those that removed the SRM-6 rack could fit the LRM-20 with its proper 20 tubes, though these often get displayed as twin racks of 10 tubes such as on the Atlas C(omstar), K(urita), and S(teiner)2.
Going back to mech scales...
This is one of several images of a Thunder being swarmed. Some depict Elementals, which considering their size difference, still fits to about this scale (even if that Thunder is narrower).
The Wolverine here:
Which this reminds me to note that Battletech Tanks can match the weights of Battlemechs...and despite being wide can still fit on a single lane in traffic. So why the hell are MWO's mechs reaching over 17.6 meters (MWO Atlas)?
This art is painstakingly scaled.
Notice something about size? The actual artwork is done by WH Keith Jr., the very first Battletech author. Notice the size of the SRM tubes on the head? (Common misconception: The weight of a weapon system doesn't just include the 'launcher' or 'barrel', but the entire workings of the gun including the feeding mechanism, which sometimes reaches throughout the body of the mech to be able to pull ammo.)
Now take a look at the size of the head of this Dragon...
And the Dragons of BT.
The "Belly" of the Dragon gives room for the missile loading mechanism...and the pilot's legs. At the proper seating (chest-up visible from the 'glass'), the pilot sits comfortably inside this tiny mech. In MWO, the pilot can fit in the head -- which is almost identical in size and proportion to the BT Dragon... but the rest of the body has been drastically and needlessly enlarged).
----
Now, some people do wonder about the "wonky" BT scales, as sometimes light mechs are larger than mediums and heavies are sometimes smaller than mediums. It's true.
Ever wonder why the Locust is so goddamn skinny?
It's pretty simple, the Locust was built as an exceptionally tall (but lanky thin) scout in order to better see over ledges as well as to put its weapon systems up high for fighting infantry and pursuing vehicles. The exceptionally long legs are a great reason for why it can achieve speeds over 100 kph. It is frequently described as approximately 11 meters tall, (Timber Wolf is 12.6 meters tall, Direwolf is 12.3 meters tall).
Meanwhile the Flea (also 20 tons like the Locust) is barely over 8 meters tall...and bulkier.
Mind you the one thing the Flea has over its towering Locust friend...is torso twist.
Jenner is another tall, thin, lanky mech in BT. It also lacks torso twist.
This Mad Dog isn't far off in scale, either.
The Catapult is another victim of scaling. The reason the Catapult has such a huge body and tiny launchers is really quite simple: The Catapult's main design is barely 10 meters tall at the launchers.
Of course it needs to be mentioned that Catapults come in two varieties.
The stunted Catapult (classic). (This is a C4)
And the Stilted Catapult is often described as just over 12 meters tall. (This is a Stilted C1).
Both are 65 tons, both have the same armor amounts. Both lack torso twist. The advantages to the stilted version is being taller allows it to step over larger obstacles as well as hurl explosive death over taller cover. The disadvantages of the stilted version is that the materials constructing it are 'spread' more in terms of skeleton, muscle, and armor, meaning you had the same amount of armor/structure, but since it covers a larger area it is in essence 'thinner' or weaker. Also something about being harder to pilot while jumpjetting. But pfft.
This image shows a TSAR tank with 9 meter-tall wheels.
Also.. as I know it's also commonly misconceived:
Autocannons.
Keep in mind that AC calibers have quite a range, and that "higher caliber" means fewer shots to get the result due to larger bullets. AC/2s range from 25mm to 90mm. AC/5s range from 40mm to 120mm. AC/10s range from 80mm to 120mm...and are basically known for being able to fire twice as fast as AC/5s (sounds like a non-jamming UAC/5 to me). AC/20s range from (strangely) from 30mm to 203mm with the IS limit being 185mm...and supposedly a 203mm AC/20 requiring the mech to be stationary and braced to fire. (The only known 203mm AC of any sort in Battletech is mounted on the Ebon Jaguar / Cauldron Born, and is the closest thing to a single shot AC...and even then it is highly debated).
On to flexibility...
Battlemech movement capabilities feed heavily from the following animes: Fang of the Sun Dougram. (Linked video demonstrates an instance of how missing a perfectly stationary target is still possible in Battletech -- possibility of pilots passively evading attacks.) Mobile Suit Gundam (specifically, 08th MS Team) (Linked video gives an idea of how infantry, vehicle and mech interactions are intended to work in Battletech; it is important to note that MANY BattleMech designs in the 1980s versions of Battletech had mechs with hand-held weapons that they could drop and swap; Battlemaster, Thunderbolt, Wolverine are just a few). PatLabor (a police mecha anime which fueled the development of Agricultural mechs and much of BT's universe fluff). First vid demonstrates basic controls and movement (to which there is a glove set similar to it described in the Tech Manual's cockpit section). This second PatLabor clip shows the peril of fighting with a Rifle (or LBX) versus an Autocannon.
It also draws from dozens of others.
Battlemechs are capable of many things, from going into the Prone position
Hull Down (though this can be achieved a variety of ways)
And according to (PDF) Page 42 of the Technical Manual, BattleMechs can also perform handstands.
Oh, and the glove thing I mentioned about Patlabor -- right there in the same page.
It amazes me how people take thigns so out of context just to try and prove their point.
You left out the part regarding "under carefully controlled conditions"
Getting a mech to do a handstand in a hangar under heavy supervision and requiring no other movements other than doing a handstand is not the same as "nimble"
smh
Ok, how about this. You can do all those things you want in your mech, however, you must stand perfectly still, not fire any weapons, redirect all concentration and mech energy and resources into pulling off a handstand
while in battle
being shot
Homeskilit, on 04 December 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:
Now I understand why you want battlemechs to be slowed down, was that video a little fast for you to follow?
Props to Madcap72 for digging up the references I was too lazy to look up, thanks man!
Koniving too for the tech manual and pics!
yes because a mistaken 83 for 73 is "video too fast"
sit down junior with your grade 3 insults, the adults are having some decent conversation. If you can mind your manners we'll let you sit with us at the big boy table again later.
yes because a mistaken 83 for 73 is "video too fast"
sit down junior with your grade 3 insults, the adults are having some decent conversation. If you can mind your manners we'll let you sit with us at the big boy table again later.
hahahaha I asked a question and you resort to name calling while claiming to have manners that I do not?
Why would you even look at the numbers anyway? You the guy that gets hit is the 3rd guy in the line (pulling guard) so there is no way he could be a tight end.
Edited by Homeskilit, 04 December 2015 - 05:21 PM.
No it doesn't, it fills out fluff. The fact that you keep trying to make it into anything more significant than that is a bit silly. I've read all kinds of books regarding Star Wars. I've yet to be able to play a Star Wars game that gives me the "freedom" with the force that they had in the fiction.
Fluff is not relevant for rule discussion.
I stand corrected!
That's also Kam Chancellor who is widely regarded as one of if not THE best safeties in all of football. Taking a "1%" outlier as an example isn't the best basis
Fair enough...what about those guys in that top 10 of all-time hardest hitters then? Looks like 3 LBs and 7 DBs to me...pretty sure all 7 were safeties.
hahahaha I asked a question and you resort to name calling while claiming to have manners that I do not?
Homeskilit, on 04 December 2015 - 05:02 PM, said:
Now I understand why you want battlemechs to be slowed down, was that video a little fast for you to follow?
try again junior, try getting back on topic and stop resorting to personal insults, then trying to play the "victim" when you get a little retaliation for your poor attempt at insulting the intelligence or physical acuity of someone else
try again junior, try getting back on topic and stop resorting to personal insults, then trying to play the "victim" when you get a little retaliation for your poor attempt at insulting the intelligence or physical acuity of someone else
It is on topic though, you are the most vocal proponent for slow turret mechs in this thread and you just showed us you cannot follow what is going on in that video.
Lyoto Machida, on 04 December 2015 - 05:21 PM, said:
Fair enough...what about those guys in that top 10 of all-time hardest hitters then? Looks like 3 LBs and 7 DBs to me...pretty sure all 7 were safeties.
Safeties are specifically known for hard hitting abilities on most reams. They're often recruited for that specific ability to help stop the run and make receivers think twice. Safeties are technically DBs, but they're not cornerbacks and aren't built anything like them most times
Safeties are beastly and one of the reasons I hated playing slot lol
As far as mechs go, the only basis I've seen anyone use are fictional fluff that were never even remotely hinted at for actual game play and an example from the Tech Manual (which is still fluff folks, until you show me the PSR modifiers for pulling off a handstand) where they saw A (single) mech perform a handstand (and I'm willing to bet that if you ask the writers they would agree that it wasn't an Atlas) under very careful and controlled environment while doing nothing else but attempting this one particular movement on a flat, level, perfectly set up floor and more than likely inside safe from environmental hazards such as wind, rain, slick pavement, uneven ground, a fly landing on the foot causing it to unbalance, etc.
6
Mechwarrior Buddah, on 04 December 2015 - 03:34 AM, said:
Seriously, google it. 
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