158 replies to this topic

[Tarl Cabot]

Truth be told, PGI made CW such a big deal with Steam/Steam Launch, making it seem like it was the centerpiece of the game, which it currently is not. That is why there are so many new people in it. Which also means many may not return for a long time to CW, if not the game.

Though I hate the thought of a "gateway", but may be there should be. Not sure what it should be though. It could be a series of games with an increasingly more difficult AI but treated like a VR, when pilots drops combat with training pods. Set it up to where at least 4 pilots are needed (with 4AI) vs at least 8 AI on a CW map. And a salty AI drop commander, "What do you think you are doing back there? Do I need to send an old timer to show you where the accelerator is at? type item".

There could be a lobby for players to group up, each lobby can only hold a set number of players, 24 max, each drop max 8 players +4 AI w/salty commander. And there could also be a "call to arms" flag to get other players, new or vets, to come to that lobby.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 21 December 2015 - 06:40 PM.

[vandalhooch]

Fen Tetsudo, on 20 December 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

{quote]

But we wouldn't be getting rid of faction play

Yes, your idea would do exactly that.

Quote

We already have that, its why there are ghost drops. Teams would continue to fight teams as they have always done.

Are you really this dense? How do the Kurita teams successfully defend their planet when only Davion solos attack it?

You created separate queues. Those Kuritan defenders can't defend their world because some players don't like teamwork?

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If you find there isn't enough variety of teams to play against, encourage people to recruit more players and found more teams.

The point of Faction Play is not "to find a variety of teams to play against." That's what private lobbies, leagues, and to a lesser extent group queue in Quick Play is for. Faction Play is for FACTIONS to fight against FACTIONS. A faction is made up of all the players in that faction.

BTW: Your idea would incentivize players to NOT join teams. Look at how many players already drop solo only. You are advocating to turn Faction Play into just another Quick Play mode.

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No, they would not. Not any more than they are now. That planet your team stole from the pug noobs, are you really counting that as a win?

My FACTION took the planet from an opposing FACTION is what you meant to say. Otherwise, you aren't talking about Faction Play. If the opposing FACTION failed to field anything stronger than 12 Rambo wannabes, then yes, we deserve to take the planet.

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You might as well be playing against an AI, since the dropship is getting more kills than the pugs.

No, I am trying to incentivize solo play so there will eventually be more team play.

Absolutely the dumbest thing you've said so far! You don't get people to do one thing by incentivizing the exact opposite.

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I agree. But as I have said upthread, I've already been doing exactly that for a year now - the results are that pug VS pug is fun, pre-made VS pre-made is fun, pug VS pre-made has not been fun (on either side).

So the best solution you can come up with is to get rid of FACTION oriented play in Faction Play?

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So report and ban them.

Yeah. Brilliant. There is no way that intentionally incentivizing people to get themselves banned won't cause any sort of player base revolt.

I take it back. This is the dumbest thing you've said so far.

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"We can't have nice things because people will cheat" is not a valid excuse for not having nice things.

You aren't advocating for anything nice. You want a much shallower experience with no level of immersion. That isn't a "nice thing" to have.

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Somewhat, but immersion is worthless if your player pop declines while wait times increase. Who wants to wait 30 mins just to have their 2nd 3rd and 4th mech spawncamped?

Only idiots wait 30 minutes. Do you know what would decrease wait times? Grouping up with other members of your FACTION. How about you put those kidneys in your skull to work on coming up with a way to incentivize players to increase their immersive experience. In the long run, that is much more likely to be of value for the game.

[Jun Watarase]

Quote

Are you really this dense? How do the Kurita teams successfully defend their planet when only Davion solos attack it?

Lets assume this ridiculous situation actually happens. This would bring up the following questions ;

-Why are there no Kurita solos to defend? How is it possible that in a game with thousands of players online at any time (if steam numbers are to be believed) that NO solo players in a large faction are defending?

-Why are there no Davion teams attacking? Same as above, where are al the Davion teams, and what are they doing at this time?

But lets assume this situation actually happens, even though it is nigh near impossible because it would suggest massive collussion among dozens of players to not attack/defend. If this situation were to happen, there is an amazing, very simple solution : Kurita teams drop solo to defend (but obviously not on the same team).

In before : But i don't want to do that! I should be able to drop with my 12 man to bash davion solos!

Edited by Jun Watarase, 20 December 2015 - 05:17 PM.

[vandalhooch]

Jun Watarase, on 20 December 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

Lets assume this ridiculous situation actually happens. This would bring up the following questions ;

-Why are there no Kurita solos to defend?

Were you not paying attention? Any Kurita pilot with a unit tag is banned from dropping solo. If not banned, then synch-dropping will get you banned.

This split queue idea is just dumb on every level.

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How is it possible that in a game with thousands of players online at any time (if steam numbers are to be believed) that NO solo players in a large faction are defending?

So players who want Faction Play enough to actually join a unit can't participate in their Faction's defense? Look at how many players want to be solo only. The queues would be filled with solo only attacks ( to avoid the 12-man dragon) and players who actually care about the Faction won't be able to do anything about it.

So, unit members will leave their units so they can drop in solo defense, will end up rolling the solo specialists because soloing is a terrible tactic and we'll be right back where we are now.

A split queue destroys Faction warfare. End statement.

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-Why are there no Davion teams attacking? Same as above, where are al the Davion teams, and what are they doing at this time?

Since most Davion teams tend to get beat by Kurita teams they'll leave their units to join the solo queue. (Just carrying this hypothetical to its ultimate state.) Eventually one faction's teams will begin to dominate over others. Players that fear losing will abandon the group queue because you incentivized their running away. The unit players will follow suite in order to win for their faction and we're back to where we started.

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But lets assume this situation actually happens, even though it is nigh near impossible because it would suggest massive collussion among dozens of players to not attack/defend.

No it won't. The split queue incentives this very scenario.

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If this situation were to happen, there is an amazing, very simple solution : Kurita teams drop solo to defend (but obviously not on the same team).

Not allowed. Bannable offense according to the proponents of this idea.

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In before : But i don't want to do that! I should be able to drop with my 12 man to bash davion solos!

The split queue does not create a community. It creates two separate communities.

[Deathlike]

demoyn, on 14 December 2015 - 03:39 PM, said:

Simply removing the trial mechs from the CW options would go a long way towards dulling most of these jagged edges. A player that's paid cash for four mechs is much less likely to leave the game over a few bad pubstomps than a new player in trial mechs, and those that don't pay cash will have played enough games to understand the average experience before getting into CW.

No.. they need to be there.

However, there's an easier compromise for this.

Limit the dropdeck to 1 trial mech.

There should be literally zero situations where anyone should be running a dropdeck totally filled with trials. You know exactly what that entails.

The point of the Trial mech is to be filler - to help with tonnages within your dropdeck... yet NOT be a complete dropdeck (as PGI seems to think at times that should be the case).

So, this forces people to at least acquire 3 other mechs (though, figuring out how it'll fit the fluctuating dropdeck tonnages is another matter).


I've been saying this many times about PGI's NPE infrastructure - it's virtually non-existent in CW.


What PGI should STRONGLY consider is literally linking the to the CW teamspeaks the primary faction coms within the game. Since TS3 is already integrated into the game, it can connect to hubs to some default channel (designed for or designated by PGI for simplicity) allowing those players to directly interact as necessary (mods would need some control over this, but I don't think there are too many complications related to this).

Making these things easier for accessibility improves the game immensely for the community.. while still providing a service necessary as the current situation dictates.

Still.. PGI has ignored these complaints... so I'm honestly not expecting much.

[TheArisen]

I agree with the OP, heck, I've advocated this very thing.

Pgi needs to keep the newbies out of the deep end of the pool.

[Stonefalcon]

Davegt27, on 14 December 2015 - 01:36 PM, said:

Yep your right

New players should be assigned to a training unit one for the clan side one for the IS

They stay in the training unit until rank 6 they then get a free Much bay and ability to sign contracts

I like the idea of the training company, however I feel that a player should only be able to compete in CW if they have four mastered mechs, one in each weight class.

[Widowmaker1981]

Jun Watarase, on 20 December 2015 - 05:16 PM, said:

Lets assume this ridiculous situation actually happens. This would bring up the following questions ;

-Why are there no Kurita solos to defend? How is it possible that in a game with thousands of players online at any time (if steam numbers are to be believed) that NO solo players in a large faction are defending?

-Why are there no Davion teams attacking? Same as above, where are al the Davion teams, and what are they doing at this time?

But lets assume this situation actually happens, even though it is nigh near impossible because it would suggest massive collussion among dozens of players to not attack/defend. If this situation were to happen, there is an amazing, very simple solution : Kurita teams drop solo to defend (but obviously not on the same team).

In before : But i don't want to do that! I should be able to drop with my 12 man to bash davion solos!

I assume you are aware that if a 12 man breaks up into 12 solos they are very likely going to end up largely on the same team in CW? And that TS3 being what it is, that is literally identical to them dropping as a group?

TBQFH its not actually teams causing the issue, as such. Its player skill, with the higher skilled players mainly being in teams, therefore meaning a 6 man premade or whatever normally means 6 good players, which is all that is needed to obliterate the average pug team - i can drop solo in CW and unless there is a decent unit on one or other side ill get 3-4k dmg and 10+ kills. Thats not teamwork, its the enemies being bad, and my team being bad.. i'm decent but i'm very far from the best out there. People don't want to admit that the problem is them and the solution is to improve their play/mech selection/builds, so they blame the premade boogieman.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 21 December 2015 - 03:02 AM.

[Elizander]

A prompt won't do. You need another full-blown tutorial when a new player clicks Faction Play.

[Brollocks]

I feel like I'm done with CW. Last game half our team was down 3 or even 4 mechs 5 minutes into a defense. I was still on my first mech, as were a couple of others. This is beyond frustrating, and being one of those idiots who is sticking with Davion, I'm seeing the brunt of this on my own team, game in game out.

Give me back my game mode of choice, I no longer want to play pointless boring quick matches.

[TWIAFU]

TheArisen, on 21 December 2015 - 01:38 AM, said:

I agree with the OP, heck, I've advocated this very thing.

Pgi needs to keep the newbies out of the deep end of the pool.

Your not allowed in the deep end unless you can show that you know how to swim.

Putting on water wings that are Trail mechs and doing the doggie paddle is not going to keep your head above water for long.

Muddy Funster, on 21 December 2015 - 04:31 AM, said:

I feel like I'm done with CW. Last game half our team was down 3 or even 4 mechs 5 minutes into a defense. I was still on my first mech, as were a couple of others. This is beyond frustrating, and being one of those idiots who is sticking with Davion, I'm seeing the brunt of this on my own team, game in game out.

Give me back my game mode of choice, I no longer want to play pointless boring quick matches.

You need to join our Faction TS hub then so you can stop being an idiot.

[Willard Phule]

Again, for what it's worth, there's a really simple solution.

1 - put the PSR/MM into CW. That's imperative.

2 - separate Tier 4 and 5 from the rest of the "general population"....ie: Tiers 1-3 play together, Tiers 4-5 play together.

3 - only allow trials to be dropped in the Tier 4-5 group.

MWO has a pretty vicious learning curve. Forcing the new players to play with experienced ones ends up with baby seal clubbing more often than not. Let the new players learn at their own pace, with people of a similar skill level, until they're ready to enter general population.

[Jun Watarase]

vandalhooch, on 20 December 2015 - 06:05 PM, said:

Were you not paying attention? Any Kurita pilot with a unit tag is banned from dropping solo. If not banned, then synch-dropping will get you banned.

This split queue idea is just dumb on every level.



So players who want Faction Play enough to actually join a unit can't participate in their Faction's defense? Look at how many players want to be solo only. The queues would be filled with solo only attacks ( to avoid the 12-man dragon) and players who actually care about the Faction won't be able to do anything about it.

So, unit members will leave their units so they can drop in solo defense, will end up rolling the solo specialists because soloing is a terrible tactic and we'll be right back where we are now.

A split queue destroys Faction warfare. End statement.



Since most Davion teams tend to get beat by Kurita teams they'll leave their units to join the solo queue. (Just carrying this hypothetical to its ultimate state.) Eventually one faction's teams will begin to dominate over others. Players that fear losing will abandon the group queue because you incentivized their running away. The unit players will follow suite in order to win for their faction and we're back to where we started.



No it won't. The split queue incentives this very scenario.



Not allowed. Bannable offense according to the proponents of this idea.



The split queue does not create a community. It creates two separate communities.

Two seperate communities work just fine. See : group queue and solo queue. Every sport has different divisions and brackets for a reason.

You can participate in your faction defence becuse there will be enemy teams attacking. You just wont be able to start unfair matches. The solo players in your faction will be defending against the solo players attacking so its not like you are being forced to give the enemy free wins. Everyone still gets to play.

You should be more like competitive sports players whom don't insist on fighting unfair matches that are massively rigged in their favor from the get go while insisting it's not their fault their opponents suck.

Real competitive players would be ecstatic at the idea of being matched against other teams of the same level of organization and skill because they want to challenge themselves and keep improving. Its a shame i dont see anything like that here.

Widowmaker1981, on 21 December 2015 - 03:00 AM, said:

I assume you are aware that if a 12 man breaks up into 12 solos they are very likely going to end up largely on the same team in CW? And that TS3 being what it is, that is literally identical to them dropping as a group?

TBQFH its not actually teams causing the issue, as such. Its player skill, with the higher skilled players mainly being in teams, therefore meaning a 6 man premade or whatever normally means 6 good players, which is all that is needed to obliterate the average pug team - i can drop solo in CW and unless there is a decent unit on one or other side ill get 3-4k dmg and 10+ kills. Thats not teamwork, its the enemies being bad, and my team being bad.. i'm decent but i'm very far from the best out there. People don't want to admit that the problem is them and the solution is to improve their play/mech selection/builds, so they blame the premade boogieman.

I alreay said that they wont be allowed to end up on the same team.

Edited by Jun Watarase, 21 December 2015 - 05:13 AM.

[Lily from animove]

Stefka Kerensky, on 15 December 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

I still remember this:
http://mwomercs.com/...munity-warfare/

and all the sh1tstorm made by proud solos refusing to join a unit.

What has being in a unit to do with it? imagine all these noobs make a unit, wouldn't differ in the screen except them having a Unit tag now.
And solos can also be veterans and good players.

solo's have nothign to do with noobs at all.

vandalhooch, on 20 December 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

Yes, your idea would do exactly that.



Are you really this dense? How do the Kurita teams successfully defend their planet when only Davion solos attack it?

You created separate queues. Those Kuritan defenders can't defend their world because some players don't like teamwork?



The point of Faction Play is not "to find a variety of teams to play against." That's what private lobbies, leagues, and to a lesser extent group queue in Quick Play is for. Faction Play is for FACTIONS to fight against FACTIONS. A faction is made up of all the players in that faction.

BTW: Your idea would incentivize players to NOT join teams. Look at how many players already drop solo only. You are advocating to turn Faction Play into just another Quick Play mode.



My FACTION took the planet from an opposing FACTION is what you meant to say. Otherwise, you aren't talking about Faction Play. If the opposing FACTION failed to field anything stronger than 12 Rambo wannabes, then yes, we deserve to take the planet.



Absolutely the dumbest thing you've said so far! You don't get people to do one thing by incentivizing the exact opposite.



So the best solution you can come up with is to get rid of FACTION oriented play in Faction Play?



Yeah. Brilliant. There is no way that intentionally incentivizing people to get themselves banned won't cause any sort of player base revolt.

I take it back. This is the dumbest thing you've said so far.



You aren't advocating for anything nice. You want a much shallower experience with no level of immersion. That isn't a "nice thing" to have.



Only idiots wait 30 minutes. Do you know what would decrease wait times? Grouping up with other members of your FACTION. How about you put those kidneys in your skull to work on coming up with a way to incentivize players to increase their immersive experience. In the long run, that is much more likely to be of value for the game.

just forget it, too many people still do not see CW as a RVR like content thats why they get salty about all these "problems" which actually are no problems would they see and treat Cw as such.

@Jun seperating in CW does NOT work, because CW is a RVR based mode where all matches count towards a common goal. While solo and grp queue are independend battles meaningless due to not having any impact on the consistency of anything. But CW does.

Edited by Lily from animove, 21 December 2015 - 05:31 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

Quote

@Jun seperating in CW does NOT work, because CW is a RVR based mode where all matches count towards a common goal. While solo and grp queue are independend battles meaningless due to not having any impact on the consistency of anything. But CW does.

Not true, it would have no effect at all on the ability to calculate attacker win %. Heres an example :

Planet A has two battles going on. One is a solo vs solo battle and the other is a team vs team battle.

Davion attacker solos win, gains attacker win %.

Marik defender team win, lowers attacker win % (or however it works for defenders).

Still the same attacker win % calculation we have now.

I remember when people used to insist that a group queue was "impossible" too. Those people have all mysteriously dissapeared by now though.

[STEF_]

Lily from animove, on 21 December 2015 - 05:28 AM, said:

What has being in a unit to do with it? imagine all these noobs make a unit, wouldn't differ in the screen except them having a Unit tag now.
And solos can also be veterans and good players.

solo's have nothign to do with noobs at all.

It has to do a lot.
Most noobs should enter a unit (did I say forming a unit thierselves?) and learn how to play/move/build thanks to "no more noob players".
Then, are u really thinking there are some veterans in that screenshot?
Because if so, they are noobs as well, not by member date but by results, and should enter a unit and learn how to play etc. (see above).

I drop solo, too.
Despite being an average pilot, I have fun, winning or losing.
And that's because I entered a team, where I learned a lot

[vandalhooch]

Jun Watarase, on 21 December 2015 - 05:09 AM, said:

Two seperate communities work just fine. See : group queue and solo queue. Every sport has different divisions and brackets for a reason.

This sports analogy is just stupid every time you guys trot it out.

Those separate divisions aren't all aiming for the same goal. They aren't all competing to win the same championship. In Faction Play, EVERYONE is competing for the same reward, take/defend a planet.

Quote

You can participate in your faction defence becuse there will be enemy teams attacking.

It's like you've never actually played a competitive video game in your life.

Every time a good Kurita team goes on the attack against another IS faction, the first few fights are typically against a larger, cohesive team. After two sound defeats the opposing team simply stops dropping on that particular planet.

In your fantasy land version of Faction Play, you think those less skilled team members will just keep dropping in the team queue knowing that they will always be defeated? Not going to happen. They will drop their unit tags to run away to the safety of the solo queue.

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You just wont be able to start unfair matches. The solo players in your faction will be defending against the solo players attacking so its not like you are being forced to give the enemy free wins. Everyone still gets to play.

How do you explain to the team players that they must lose their planet to another faction despite their opponents refusing to face the best players in their own faction?

Your attitude of "everyone gets to play" is the over-entitled garbage that has created this mess in the first place. This is supposed to be Faction against Faction. If only one queue of a faction determines the outcome of the war then you don't really have Faction Play.

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You should be more like competitive sports players whom don't insist on fighting unfair matches that are massively rigged in their favor from the get go while insisting it's not their fault their opponents suck.

Have you actually ever watched real sports? Overmatched opponents get blown out all the time! In college football, high ranked teams regularly schedule low ranked teams early in the season. The previous season's NBA champions are totally expected to take the court and wipe the floor with last season's worst team.

Your sports analogy does not support your argument. All it does is show everyone how little you know about sports.

Quote

Real competitive players would be ecstatic at the idea of being matched against other teams of the same level of organization and skill because they want to challenge themselves and keep improving. Its a shame i dont see anything like that here.

This happens all the time in my unit when we drop against a tough opponent. You don't see anything like that because you aren't a member of a team and therefor don't actually witness it. You just go around assuming all team members are just as cowardly as you are deep down.

Quote

I alreay said that they wont be allowed to end up on the same team.

Yes, you will prevent players who love the idea of Faction warfare from engaging in Faction warfare. It's a stupid, stupid idea.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

I'm noticing a lot of blame being shifted to tagged players and units, while failing to understand that unit tags != ability, and that units, while having an advantage, can only do so much.


Here we have an example of 100% Pugs curbstomping the living **** out of a unit +Pugs.

Spoiler

Here we have a smaller unit +pugs going to poundtown on a 12-man 'boogieman.' Notice the three unitless CJF guys and that they put up some solid numbers.

Spoiler

Again, another small group +pugs taking down a larger group. Notice some of the poor numbers put up by unit tagged players?

Spoiler

And here again, all solos against two small groups. With two untagged clanners and two untagged IS players putting up great numbers and five tagged players putting up some pretty bad numbers.

Spoiler

And here is a three man and a six man getting smashed by a two man and pugs. Notice that one of the top players, Cat UA, was untagged.

Spoiler

And this isn't uncommon. I solo CW a LOT. And I often see tagged players doing as bad as untagged. I've seen 12mans get ROFLstomped by 100% solo players and I've seen 10-11 mans get carried by an untagged player or two.


I don't understand wanting to separate queues, some of my best games have been from being a solo player or with one or two other QQ members against large premades.


Tier 5 and 4 have training wheels. The training wheels is a matchmaker that prevents good, long time players from being pitted against them as these newer, less experienced players get a grasp on the basics of the game.

CW has no training wheels (or even a tutorial for that matter). So they need to prevent extremely green players from facing extremely seasoned players. Introducing a matchmaker won't help because CW lacks the population and will always be the least popular mode. Separating queues has the same essential effect, low population + least favorite mode == not viable.

So how to do prevent this easily? Introduce a minimum standard to ensure players entering the mode are up to snuff. No one on their Cadet bonus is ready for CW. The Cadet bonus is also not anywhere near long enough for the players to firmly grasp the fundamentals. CW is a mode that players shouldn't be in without a firm grasp of the fundamentals, and that is what my OP is suggesting.

[Not A Real RAbbi]

Elizander, on 21 December 2015 - 03:18 AM, said:

A prompt won't do. You need another full-blown tutorial when a new player clicks Faction Play.

AMEN!

I suggested exactly that in the Mechwarrior Academy forum, too. Not that my suggestion carries ANY weight at all with PGI, but just sayin'...

Part of Johan's gate concept should probably be, that a tutorial and subsequent requirement (total XP earned, or group queue matches played, etc.) be completed prior to joining any Faction Warfare match solo. MAYBE requiring something like:

1.) Player has successfully completed the Mechwarrior Academy's Faction Warfare tutorial (Which also needs to happen, I know, but work with me here)

and

2.) Player has earned not less than 750 GXP in Group Queue matches, or
Player has earned not less than a combined 1,200 GXP between Group and Solo Queue matches, and not less than 400 in either

Were there some manner of LFG for FW, it might even be reasonable to add a requirement to have earned X number of LP in a group FW drop before being allowed to roll solo.

But having solo PUG newbies in FW is not cool in most cases.

[zolop]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 14 December 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

It's not a better idea if it won't work in the current environment.


What will reduce these travesties is a simple checklist. Has the player:

• Completed the tutorial?
  
• Finished their Cadet Bonus?
  
• Purchased their first mech?

What would be even better is:

• Completed the tutorial?
  
• Finished their Cadet Bonus?
  
• Purchased their first mech?
  
• Played X number of Solo/Group matches?
  
• Purchased their second mech?

Because I'm pretty sure every game I've played that has end game content has told me I need to do X, Y, Z in order to partake in the endgame content or simply that I don't even see the endgame content until after I've done certain things. And it's worked great.

Elizander, on 21 December 2015 - 03:18 AM, said:

A prompt won't do. You need another full-blown tutorial when a new player clicks Faction Play.

Agree...then after all that their needs to be one last training mission of a CW Attack, Defend Counter attack, but with turrets that do not shoot back (but exposed) and mechs that do not shoot back. Kind of like training grounds for quick play, but CW goals instead.

Edited by zolop, 22 December 2015 - 09:01 AM.