284 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

Damia Savon, on 10 March 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

Except neither Phoenix hawk hero has ecm. Oops..no big deal after all.

Agreed, my bad.

I misread the chart.

[mogs01gt]

All ECM really does now is allows you do not run radar derp.

[Sader325]

ice trey, on 18 December 2015 - 05:27 PM, said:

It doesn't really bother me. The lore has Morgan Kell able to use the "Phantom Mech ability", but since programming that into the game would not only be difficult, but broken as well, plopping some ECM in there isn't too big a deal.

I'm not sure I'll be picking it up, though. Archers, likely, but the hero mech is Kell Hounds, which are heavily in the Steiner camp. I could only justify it for the defence of Luthien.

Give the Hero a Radar Deprivation quirk.

Edited by Sader325, 10 March 2016 - 07:49 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Well radar derp isn't quite as useful as ECM because it doesn't conceal the dorito..

[Sader325]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 March 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

Well radar derp isn't quite as useful as ECM because it doesn't conceal the dorito..

That's the point.

It would be unique without being P2W. Which is what this current hero is.

[Mystere]

Whine! Whine! Whine!

[Metus regem]

ECM is decent to good, but not WTFBBQOP, it doesn't protect you from Gauss/AC's/Lasers/PPC/SRM, hell you can dumb fire LRM's to get around the no locking issue. So really it is strong against lock on weapons, but since it took the radius hit down to 90m, it's just not as good, now Radar Dep module, that is much more powerful and costs no weight. So I don't see it as a P2W issue, even more so, if there is a C-bill unit that has ECM as well in the same weight bracket.

[habu86]

Sader325, on 10 March 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

Give the Hero a Radar Deprivation quirk.

That essentially amounts to giving the hero an extra mech module slot, making it objectively more capable than the non-hero Archers. For better or for wose, as of right now, the Tempest needs to set aside an extra 1.5 tons if it wants to have some measure of electronic defense, which probably sits a little closer to the pros/cons approach than giving it quirk as powerful as Radar Dep by default.

Edited by habu86, 10 March 2016 - 08:02 AM.

[Sader325]

habu86, on 10 March 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

That essentially amounts to giving the hero an extra mech module slot, making it objectively more capable than the non-hero Archers. For better or for wose, as of right now, the Tempest needs to set aside an extra 1.5 tons if it wants to have some measure of electronic defense, which probably sits a little closer to the pros/cons approach than giving it quirk as powerful as Radar Dep by default.

1.5 tons?

"Man I could be doing so much more with this 1 extra ton, I don't really need this ECM at all", said No Hellbringer Ever

[Lucian Nostra]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 December 2015 - 04:13 PM, said:

Sorry, can0t agree.

As long as there are COMPARABLE mechs available free? It's a non issue. It's idiotic to claim it has to be a carbon copy chassis with ecm to avoid P2W.

YOu have an ECM Cataphract and the Hellbringer, both free, packing ECM in the heavy class.

Back when only a handful of chassis had it? One MIGHT have had a valid argument. Now? No.

Man nice necro but Bishops post still holds true, Heroes coming out here and there with strengths their base chassis don't have isn't an issue as long as across the field there is something comparable. This was as Bishop stated an important point early in MWOs life since there was so little to choose from but as we now have a metric-fukton of mechs this worry goes away. Even ECM the biggest advantage you can give to a mech isn't what it was back than since so many mechs are capable of carrying it.

Some heroes will be better than their standard versions some will be the same-ish and some will be worse. IF every hero starts getting buffed up and every hero starts coming out with big advantages I'll start to worry.

The problem is PGI listened to the forums a bit to much and started releasing all the heroes as sub-par for a while there to base variants at which point who's gonna buy them? "Hey Kids wanna PAY for a mech thats crap compared to the FREE version!?" OH boy mister!

Even WOTs system of tier 8 gold tanks they where still better than some of the fully upgraded tanks and only after you FULLY upgraded other tier 8s did they pass the gold tanks. Thats a pretty big deal as upgrading at that tier was a grind and a half. This system was considered acceptable and it's worse than PGIs hero mech system

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 10 March 2016 - 08:20 AM.

[Sandpit]

I'm not ready to grab pitchforks for this one. It's the first time I can remember in 4 years. It's an ECM, not some sorta P2W mechanic that you can only get by spending real $.

It COULD be a slippery slope, but considering the very next mech they released DOES have ECM in the standard variant, I think you guys are overreacting a bit

[habu86]

Sader325, on 10 March 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

1.5 tons?

"Man I could be doing so much more with this 1 extra ton, I don't really need this ECM at all", said No Hellbringer Mech with access to Clan XL, 7-slot endo and FF, and 2-slot heatsinks Ever

FTFY.

I dunno, maybe it's my having spent too much time trying to make a -0XP more viable, but something weird seemed to happen when trying to make the numbers work on a 70-ton IS mech with ECM, and I've more than once found myself wishing for those extra 2 slots and 1.5 tons.

Yes, I know HBR doesn't have endo and FF. I'm trying to make a point regarding crit space and how constrained you can get.

Either way, the fact remains that giving the Tempest Radar Dep as quirk, frees up a module slot for other stuff and makes it incrementally more flexible and powerful than its non-hero cousins.

Edited by habu86, 10 March 2016 - 08:28 AM.

[Baelfire]

Sader325, on 10 March 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

1.5 tons?

"Man I could be doing so much more with this 1 extra ton, I don't really need this ECM at all", said No Hellbringer Ever

Fair enough. But is a HBR better than a Timberwolf because of said ECM? And will the Archer clearly be better than a CTF-0XP, HBR or TBR?

It is only P2W if it gives you a decisive advantage over all other options. I really doubt that, considering the shape and hardpoints of the hero Archer. Not to mention the reduced quirks it will get. There are already more than enough options for "free" ECM Mechs, so i don't see a probelm if a few heros getting ECM.

Edited by Baelfire, 10 March 2016 - 08:27 AM.

[STEF_]

Lucian Nostra, on 10 March 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

Man nice necro but Bishops post still holds true

Yea, maybe, BUT among the missile boat classTempest is going to be the best.

So.....

[Livewyr]

ECM doesn't offer any advantages, so it doesn't matter that only Hero variants of certain chassis get it.


Duh...


*gag*

[Khobai]

im fine with hero mechs having ECM. thats not the issue.

the issue is ECM does too much for 1.5 tons. it shouldnt grant stealth at all.

[Zerberus]

The way ECM is now and with the number of ECM mechs available, it´s not really an issue, there I agree.

However: Does everyone still remember when the Hero locust came out as the only locust w /ECM? Where many people like myself weren´t crying about P2W, but did clearly warn about the precedent it establishes? And how we were told by the community that it would be a one time thing?

Yeah, so much for that... or the introduction of coolshots setting the precedent necessary to get 3PV through without a catastrophic amount of whining? Becasue both "would never be in the game"....

And yet when one attempts to apply the Slippery Slope reasoning to other major changes championed by some, specifically because of precedents like this, it´s called out as a logical fallacy.... Except that it´s not a fallacy if it´s verifiably happened exactly that way in the past, esp. if it was more than once. That it´s merely an observation of past events leading to a reasonable assumption as to how the same company will continue to act in the future if not given a reason specifically not to.

Which we probably won´t, becasue there will always be enough people that are vocal enough to get even the most harebrained idea through.... With all the long term results it brings with it.

This is exactly what happens when we simply accept things we don´t like instead of actively trying to change them. We get more and more things we don´t like, with the reasoning that what´s good for A is also good for B, and since A was ok with us B should be, too....

Edited by Zerberus, 10 March 2016 - 08:42 AM.

[TamCoan]

There are enough ECM options now that I don't think it's an issue. The heroes are based off of canon mechs so they tried to justify one of the oddest battletech stories with ECM. (Morgan Kell's "Phantom Mech" ability.)

I've no problem with it.

[Lucian Nostra]

Zerberus, on 10 March 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

The way ECM is now and with the number of ECM mechs available, it´s not really an issue, there I agree.

However: Does everyone still remember when the Hero locust came out as the only locust w /ECM? Where many people like myself weren´t crying about P2W, but did clearly warn about the precedent it establishes? And how we were told by the community that it would be a one time thing?

Yeah, so much for that... or the introduction of coolshots setting the precedent necessary to get 3PV through without a catastrophic amount of whining? Becasue both "would never be in the game"....

And yet when one attempts to apply the Slippery Slope reasoning to other major changes championed by some, specifically because of precedents like this, it´s called out as a logical fallacy.... Except that it´s not a fallacy if it´s verifiably happened exactly that way in the past, esp. if it was more than once. That it´s merely an observation of past events leading to a reasonable assumption as to how the same company will continue to act in the future if not given a reason specifically not to.

Which we probably won´t, becasue there will always be enough people that are vocal enough to get even the most harebrained idea through.... With all the long term results it brings with it.

This is exactly what happens when we simply accept things we don´t like instead of actively trying to change them. We get more and more things we don´t like, with the reasoning that what´s good for A is also good for B, and since A was ok with us B should be, too....

The logical fallacy is the thought that for every chassis the Hero has to be worse than the free versions.

Lets say the Tempest becomes the best Archer due to its ECM and lets say the meta shifts and the Dragons Slayer becomes a thing again does that suddenly make MWO P2W? Is this a danger because in some examples the Heroes are more favorable than the c-bill variants?

As I said prior some will be better, some will be worse and some will be on par. For example the IM, this was a fantastic hero with it's triple UAC/5s but it wasn't the meta like the 3D putting it on par at best. The Pirates Bane, ECM, no other locust has it, but the 1E is still the best. so it's worse. The Dragon Slayer due to it's layout and ability to deadside was better than the other Victors but there still wasn't a big outcry of P2W since the other victor (9S i believe) was very close. La Malinche? mechs a freakin joke

So will a 6E 3M Archer with ECM trump a 9M Archer or one of the other variants with their quirks? waits to be seen

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 10 March 2016 - 09:04 AM.

[3xnihilo]

Since P2W means I am gaining an advantage over non-paying opponents by spending money, by my way of thinking, for a mech to be P2W it would have to be objectively the best mech in its class. If there is a free option that is just as viable, it is not P2W. I don't pilot many heavies so I am not sure if the tempest is clearly the best heavy mech on the IS side or not. But having a special feature other variants of the same chassis do not doesn't really count as P2W for me.

FWIW, the Death's Knell is arguably the best 25t mech in the game, so possibly P2W.

Edited by 3xnihilo, 10 March 2016 - 09:08 AM.