284 replies to this topic

[fogsworth]

Yeah, ECMs are pretty good. Maybe not $35 good, but maybe $20 plus complain I don't get one good. /s

Hero mechs do walk a narrow path. In this case I kind of feel like the ECM kind of fits.

[ice trey]

It doesn't really bother me. The lore has Morgan Kell able to use the "Phantom Mech ability", but since programming that into the game would not only be difficult, but broken as well, plopping some ECM in there isn't too big a deal.

I'm not sure I'll be picking it up, though. Archers, likely, but the hero mech is Kell Hounds, which are heavily in the Steiner camp. I could only justify it for the defence of Luthien.

Edited by ice trey, 18 December 2015 - 05:34 PM.

[SOL Ranger]

Khobai, on 16 December 2015 - 05:13 PM, said:

um a better idea would be to just balance ECM so its worth the 1.5 tons it costs

then its no big deal if a hero mech can use it

This, also add radar derpivation to that list of rebalancing.

I would suggest something like the following that could be made to work to step away from the digital all or nothing targeting/ECM mechanics.


Mechanics rundown:

• Allow overall easier targeting by eliminating the old ECM/radar deprivation mechanics.
  
• Have missiles targeting ECM covered targets get a wider spread penalty thus hitting less accurately.
  
• Allow long held targets to increasingly pinpoint and negate ECM effects causing targeting calibration over time, initially ECM applying a big spread penalty where said spread penatly eventually is reduced to zero.
  
• Sensor range is reduced for anything within the ECM field and effectively for anything targeting directly inside the field.
  
• Have ECM and radar deprivation stackable for these effects.

ECM/Radar deprivation new mechanic:

• Increases enemy targeting aquisition delay by 5%.
  
• Reduces sensor range by 2.5% for both allied mechs inside the field and enemy mechs attempting to target mechs inside the field.
  
• Prolongs enemy targeting calibration time by 25%.
  
• Increases enemy maximum missile spread by 25%
  
• All these stack linearly, reasonable diminishing returns after a ceiling is possibly required.
  
• Radar Deprivation acts like this new ECM effect, but only for your mech, essentially offering a +1 ECM stack at all times.

Quick example case:

Lets assume an enemy mech is spotted, he is covered by radar deprivation and 3x ECM fields, which equates to the following.

4x5% -> 20% targeting aquisition delay
4x2.5% -> 10% shorter effective sensor range.
4x25% -> 100% longer targeting calibration time.
4x25% -> 100% missile spread penalty.

• At longer ranges you would potentially need to move closer to allow your sensors to even target it.
  
• After a second or two you get a target on the enemy, the delay of 20% is noticeable but nothing too horrible.
  
• Now you immediately fire a LRM missile volley, they will suffer 100% wider spread when they land and reduce your effectiveness significantly.
  
• The longer you hold the target, your targeting is improved on an function of time exponential scale and thus as time goes by your penalty is reduced.

Time to ECM missile spread penalty graph, where the calibration time penalty prolongs the point of full negation:

0s -> 100%
2s -> 72%
4s -> 40%
6s -> 24%
8s -> 10%
10s -> 7% (Normally 10s without any calibration time penalty)
12s -> 5%
14s -> 3.4%
16s -> 1.9%
18s -> 0.5%
20s -> 0.0% (20s with 100% calibration time penalty)


I've freely assumed 10s seconds is a decent enough normal example case for this mechanic, and 20s when the effect is fully negated with the penalty applied and your missile spread is normal and unaffected, any additional ECM into the field will again reignite the calibration but from the point of that new ecm adding more difficulty to get the signal, adding more to this time.

Conclusion:

What this mechanic does is, while it allows easier locks overall due to removing the old ECM mechanic, it allows much mess precise fire, and it allows stacking and predictable gaming patterns for the workings of more precise missile behaviour, if you get manhandled by LRM's you've likely done something risky as well.


Results would be allowing a more grey area of applying missile damage, allowing more free missile fire combat but significantly much less accurate fire at the same time, where accurate fire would fall on targets quite deserving of said accurate fire.


Disclaimer: All figures are placeholders and this is only an attempt to show example of mechanic workings, not a full on solution ready for implementation, further conceptual design changes could be needed when incorporating other existing countermechanics into it as well. Also it was late when I wrote this, reserved for anything.

[Viges]

Nightmare1, on 18 December 2015 - 04:12 PM, said:

Not so much mindless as practical. I've been around this game too long to get excited over every little thing, and I've also got enough common sense to know that the slow and steady approach is the best one. Kneejerkers can ruin this game (and have in the past until their changes were repealed), and I'm tired of hearing them whine and grief in the forums as they clamor for immediate, sweeping changes that generally create more problems than fixes.

I mean, seriously, the OP is a perfect example. Two Hero Mechs appear with ECM and are the only ECM variants in their chassis. So, the OP freaks out and starts screaming that the end is nigh. People like that are high-strung and upidstay.

I mean, really, two Mechs constitute a trend? Since when??? That's nothing and it's certainly not unreasonable.

Ignoring the facts is not practical. The game went p2w long ago. It's just a fact. I don't even whine about it. At first I joined them and bought DS. Then after they released clans I just left after some days because how terrible it was. Then played some time before cheetos then left again. I just don't care anymore, play when it's manageable, sometimes on weekends. Why f2p game should not be p2w anyway? There is no laws about that and I know many games that are, this one is just one of them. You don't like p2w game? - don't play it. But saying that this game is not p2w is just a lie.

[Mad Strike]

mehh , it makes no diference. We already have lots of ECM capable mechs.

[SgtMagor]

don't think this mech is an OP chassis of destruction, dunno if ECM will help much anyway.

[Nightmare1]

Viges, on 18 December 2015 - 08:50 PM, said:

Ignoring the facts is not practical. The game went p2w long ago. It's just a fact. I don't even whine about it. At first I joined them and bought DS. Then after they released clans I just left after some days because how terrible it was. Then played some time before cheetos then left again. I just don't care anymore, play when it's manageable, sometimes on weekends. Why f2p game should not be p2w anyway? There is no laws about that and I know many games that are, this one is just one of them. You don't like p2w game? - don't play it. But saying that this game is not p2w is just a lie.

Fact? Really dude? What are you smoking?

Pay to win means that you can purchase exclusive or semi-exclusive content that gives you a decided advantage or guarantees victory in a match. Since Hero Mechs and Champion Mechs are the only truly exclusive/semi-exclusive content that could affect gameplay, you are insinuating that owning them constitutes the game being P2W.

This simply isn't so. Let's look at the list of Hero Mechs that have been considered powerful in the game's history:

IM and DS: Powerful due to their ballistics, maneuverability, and JJs (for the DS). What happened though? Ballistics and JJs got nerfed in response to community feedback/grief threads. Victor agility was also nerfed along with PPCs and Gauss, also as a result of community clamoring. The result is that the IM and DS fell from their pedestals. They certainly aren't P2W, and, even when they were top Mechs, didn't guarantee victory (goodness knows I have killed them more times than I have been killed by them).

The Huginn and Misery are two other "strong" Heroes that the IS had. The Oxide was also considered good for a while as was the Grid Iron. All of those Mechs were nerfed in the Rebalance though, I believe, and are not disproportionately stronger than any others now. It's a farce to call them P2W, especially when they are so easy to kill.

So...let's count these so-called P2W Mechs of yours:

IM, DS, Huginn, Misery, Oxide, and Grid Iron. That's six Mechs total, all of which have been nerfed back down to the baseline per player feedback. That certainly doesn't match the P2W model.

Per your assumption, these must surely be the only OP Mechs in the game, no? Well, not really because you have:

Firestarters (The Ember Hero is a joke, though fun).
Ravens (Good Hero)
Arctic Cheetahs (No Hero)
Blackjack (Hero is only so-so)
Shadowhawk (So-so Hero)
Thunderbolt (So-so Hero)
Ebon Jag (No Hero)
Timber Wolf (No Hero)
Hellbringer (No Hero)
BattleMaster (Poor Hero)
Stalker (Good Hero)
Mauler (No Hero)
Atlas (So-so Hero)
King Crab (No Hero)
Dire Wolf (No Hero)

All of those Mechs are, or have been at some point in time, considered powerful in this game. What is interesting is that only two of them have decent Heroes in addition to good variants. They all stand on their own two feet as having their own powerful, C-bill variants. This means that anyone can own them and use them, refuting the P2W model you claim exists.

The other interesting thing about P2W models, is that the devs usually ignore some of the player feedback in the interest of keeping some features deliberately more powerful, to propagate the P2W model. You don't really see that here though. Instead, PGI has a history of buffing and nerfing Mechs and weapons in an attempt to bring them in line with a targets average. The recent nerf to Gauss Rifles as well as the Grid Iron nerf both serve as merely two small pieces of this evidence.

Basically, what I get from you is this: "I don't pay for the one-month early content and get my feelings hurt when my sorry butt gets killed by a Mech I can buy for C-bills sometime in the next month or so, so I'm going to call P2W and go play something else until I return to sulk some more."

Really dude? Get over it. If you want to see what REAL P2W is, then go try Ghost Recon: Phantoms, Planetside 2, Star Trek Online, or other similar games. Those all require you to shell out some cash if you want to be competitive. Star Trek itself is so bad that you can't even step inside the PVP arena unless you've bought some powerful stuff with real money.

MWO is a far cry from P2W. In fact, the paid content such as Hero Mechs, Champion Mechs, and Premium Time really acts more like boosters would in other games than they do as gamebreaking match advantages.

Frankly, I think you're nuts and dodging the truth yourself. You can't say this game is P2W when it isn't; it's just that simple. I can take any of my C-bill Mechs and thrash any Hero Mech in this game to my heart's content because the game is NOT P2W. If you are getting your butt handed to you too much, then it's probably because you don't ever play the game, and therefore lack the skills necessary to succeed, and not because the Mechs you meet are overpowered.

I'll never understand where you Griefers, who claim to not care but then sit on the forums and berate the game and it's players, come from or why you stay. If you are truly this miserable in the game, then leave and find something more entertaining. Not only will you be happier for it, but the rest of us will too because we won't have to listen to this nonsense you're spouting. .

[PraetorGix]

Prosperity Park, on 16 December 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

I don't like how we have more Mechs coming out where the Hero is the only version that has ECM. I think many of us will agree that ECM is still worth more than 1.5 tons, so giving only the Heo Mech ECM without assigning any significant drawbacks makes me unsettled.

I think that Mech chassis that offer an ECM Hero should also offer a ECM Standard Variant. So, instead of just the Archer Tempest getting ECM, one of the standard variants should also get ECM.

Do others feel this way, too?

I don't like it. Granted, P2W is something different, I wouldn't say this is an example of P2W, but this is a 70 tonner that will come with a metric sh*t ton of quirks, not a poor underpowered Locust. In paper it seems better than any other Archer and that is wrong, it's like P2W inside a specific chassis; "you wanna do well in an archer? use the one that costs real money".
But I'm worried most of all about how quiet everyone is about it. Let it go unnoticed and the next one of these "exceptions" we see could start looking more like P2W and become a trend.

Edited by PraetorGix, 10 March 2016 - 01:03 AM.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

only thing ecm blocks is your own situational awareness

[meteorol]

That necro though

[Paigan]

PraetorGix, on 10 March 2016 - 12:46 AM, said:

I don't like it. Granted, P2W is something different, I wouldn't say this is an example of P2W, but this is a 70 tonner that will come with a metric sh*t ton of quirks, not a poor underpowered Locust. In paper it seems better than any other Archer and that is wrong, it's like P2W inside a specific chassis; "you wanna do well in an archer? use the one that costs real money".
But I'm worried most of all about how quiet everyone is about it. Let it go unnoticed and the next one of these "exceptions" we see could start looking more like P2W and become a trend.

Why are you posting this?

1.)
This thread is clearly WRONG as the new Phoenix Hawk does have a standard variant with ECM.
AFAIK there is only ONE Mech type where only the hero has ECM, the Archer.
This is NOT a trend. It's just a singular variation.
Ah yes, and the Pirate's Bane, with a timely distance of, what, 2 years?
Still not a trend, especially considering the Phoenix Hawk.

Really, sometimes it would be nice if people could use their brain for a change.

All this P2W whining in MWO remains what it is: unsubstantial, irrational, envy-driven spite.
EVERYTHING one needs is or will be free in the end. The rest are cute little additions, nothing mandatory.

2.)
Necro

Edited by Paigan, 10 March 2016 - 04:02 AM.

[Clownwarlord]

Prosperity Park, on 16 December 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

I don't like how we have more Mechs coming out where the Hero is the only version that has ECM. I think many of us will agree that ECM is still worth more than 1.5 tons, so giving only the Heo Mech ECM without assigning any significant drawbacks makes me unsettled.

I think that Mech chassis that offer an ECM Hero should also offer a ECM Standard Variant. So, instead of just the Archer Tempest getting ECM, one of the standard variants should also get ECM.

Do others feel this way, too?

Um the phoenix hawk will have 2 ecm variants not hero variants. I think it is only the Archer due to it being Morgan Kell's and his freaky ability to go ...

Edited by clownwarlord, 10 March 2016 - 02:13 AM.

[badaa]

pay to win pay to win pay to win pay to win!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MeiSooHaityu]

Prosperity Park, on 16 December 2015 - 03:56 PM, said:

I don't like how we have more Mechs coming out where the Hero is the only version that has ECM. I think many of us will agree that ECM is still worth more than 1.5 tons, so giving only the Heo Mech ECM without assigning any significant drawbacks makes me unsettled.

I think that Mech chassis that offer an ECM Hero should also offer a ECM Standard Variant. So, instead of just the Archer Tempest getting ECM, one of the standard variants should also get ECM.

Do others feel this way, too?

I agree.

I complained about this with the Pirate's Bane, but many told me it was no big deal because it was a light mech Locust. Well, a precedence have been set.

But that's ok. Now it's a 45 ton medium...no big deal also...right?


UPDATE: Ugh, apparently I can't read. I think I saw the MASC entry on the Reinforcement variant and thought it was ECM...and a Hero :/

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 10 March 2016 - 07:48 AM.

[ice trey]

Nah, Lore wise, Morgan Kell and his ghost-mech ability was a unique thing, and otherwise, the Archer was never a sneaky machine. The Cataphract has ECM, but more because it's a High-tech capellan design that was still experimental during the 4th succession war. I'd rather just not have the hero mech be Morgan Kell than have some made-up ECM archer variant clogging up the Heavy cue any more than it already is. Jaime Wolf is fine,

There are some 'mechs that really surprised me that they didn't have an ECM-allowance, like the Vindicator. Let's be honest, that mech SERIOUSLY needs to be allowed to have ECM, because besides being the Liao Workhorse, nobody's fielding it. I can't remember the last time, or first time, I'd seen anyone use one. The only reason that I don't use them is... Come on... Drac. But if I were a Liao player, I'd make constant use of them just to give some spice to this bland, meta-plagued battlefield.

If what we need is another IS heavy mech that deserves ECM, the Exterminator has yet to have ever been included in a Battletech PC game, and it was one of the ones that had the only-recently-given-rules-for Chameleon Light polarization shield. Likewise, the assault Cyclops still hasn't been addressed, but would make a good candidate for an ECM system. Lots of people don't remember that a DDC doesn't come stock with ECM, it just has the slot for it to differentiate it from the AS7-D

Edited by ice trey, 10 March 2016 - 03:35 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Oh noes Tempest is so OP!

It's safe to say that variant will get the worst quirks given that it has ECM. Remember when the 0XP came out and how everyone used them because it was so good because it had ECM? Yeah I don't remember that either.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 10 March 2016 - 07:13 AM.

[Lugh]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 16 December 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

Eh... let's wait and see how it turns out. Personally I think some existing IS heros would benefit greatly from having ECM added. The Hugin and oxide come to mind post Jenner IIC.

The Jenner IIC does fine without ECM, the Huginn and the Oxide have been doing fine without ECM for years now.

[Aramoro999]

Meh...ecm is gonna get nerfed to **** anyways, let the ppl have fun whit it till it lasts.

[Damia Savon]

MeiSooHaityu, on 10 March 2016 - 02:47 AM, said:

I agree.

I complained about this with the Pirate's Bane, but many told me it was no big deal because it was a light mech Locust. Well, a precedence have been set.

But that's ok. Now it's a 45 ton medium...no big deal also...right?

Except neither Phoenix hawk hero has ecm. Oops..no big deal after all.

[Xavori]

They should add the 7L variant. Not only would you get ECM on a non-unique variant, but you also get stealth armor and jump jets