284 replies to this topic

[Sader325]

habu86, on 10 March 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

FTFY.

I dunno, maybe it's my having spent too much time trying to make a -0XP more viable, but something weird seemed to happen when trying to make the numbers work on a 70-ton IS mech with ECM, and I've more than once found myself wishing for those extra 2 slots and 1.5 tons.

Yes, I know HBR doesn't have endo and FF. I'm trying to make a point regarding crit space and how constrained you can get.

Either way, the fact remains that giving the Tempest Radar Dep as quirk, frees up a module slot for other stuff and makes it incrementally more flexible and powerful than its non-hero cousins.

My warhammer brawler has the same or very similar hardpoint setup to this hero archer. Said warhammer regularly smashes people for 600+ damage games, and its very first game was 800 damage with no basics.

This is literally the same mech, but with one less heat sink. The only thing I have to do is find .5 tons and I've got the same exact build with 1 less heatsink.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Quick question:

If a Timberwolf hero was released with an ECM mount and no reduction of hardpoints, which Timberwolf would be preferred by combatants?

[TamCoan]

Prosperity Park, on 10 March 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

Quick question: If a Timberwolf hero was released with an ECM mount and no reduction of hardpoints, which Timberwolf would be preferred by combatants?

I'm assuming allot of people would take it over other timberwolves. General consensus is the wolf is the best mech in the game, or at least among the top three. So giving it ECM would only make it better. It fills that sweet spot of weight, loadouts, hitboxes and abilities.

I think the only TW variant with an ECM is a bounty-hunter config.

IMHO the archer would have to first be proven that it is just as good, if not better than a TW for the hero to be considered PTW.

[Moomtazz]

Prosperity Park, on 10 March 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

Quick question:

If a Timberwolf hero was released with an ECM mount and no reduction of hardpoints, which Timberwolf would be preferred by combatants?

Apples to Oranges. Omnimech vs battlemech.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Moomtazz, on 10 March 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

Apples to Oranges. Omnimech vs battlemech.

Both being delicious fruit served from the same basket.

However, since density is strong with you, I will rephrase. If a Thunderbolt/Stalker/Battlemaster/Blackjack/JagerMech Hero was released with ECM, then which Variant would be preferred by combatants?

Edited by Prosperity Park, 10 March 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[Grimlox]

Sader325, on 10 March 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

My warhammer brawler has the same or very similar hardpoint setup to this hero archer. Said warhammer regularly smashes people for 600+ damage games, and its very first game was 800 damage with no basics.

This is literally the same mech, but with one less heat sink. The only thing I have to do is find .5 tons and I've got the same exact build with 1 less heatsink.

Not as if the WHM-7S is exactly OP and even if you happen to do well with it and think you would do as well or better with the Tempest by building it with the same brawling loadout it is entirely possible the Archer will be a complete fail as a brawler due to hitboxes. Looks a lot like the profile of a Mad Dog and we all know how well those do at brawling even though they have an amazing amount of missile hardpoints that look fantastic on paper.

EDIT: PGI has done a fine job of not allowing hero variants to be P2W. I own the Heavy Metal, Ilya Muromets, Yen Lo Wang, Pretty Baby, Flame, Dragon Slayer, Top Dog, and maybe one or two others I can't think of right now. Not one of those mechs is anywhere near best of class and none of them are clear best in chassis either. In fact more often than not they are well on the weak end of the spectrum. I'm doing my part of the P2W equation by paying but for some reason PGI isn't selling me win advantage mechs. Only conclusion I can draw at this point is it's not P2W yet after years of offering hero mechs and I have no reason to believe it ever will be.

Edited by Grimlox, 10 March 2016 - 09:48 AM.

[Triordinant]

When there are 3 to 5 Hero 'mechs that are the only variants of their chassis with ECM we will have officially entered P2W territory.

[Lucian Nostra]

Triordinant, on 10 March 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

When there are 3 to 5 Hero 'mechs that are the only variants of their chassis with ECM we will have officially entered P2W territory.

3-5 mechs out of like 100 mechs would be p2w? And the pirates bane is adding to the total?

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 10 March 2016 - 09:51 AM.

[CDLord HHGD]

Prosperity Park, on 10 March 2016 - 09:20 AM, said:

Quick question:

If a Timberwolf hero was released with an ECM mount and no reduction of hardpoints, which Timberwolf would be preferred by combatants?

It doesn't have the same number of useable hardpoints. It's got two energy and one missile in the CT. Three hardpoints for two crits.

If ECM was as powerful as it used to be, you'd be onto something, but until I see nothing but ECM mechs in CW, there's nothing here.

[Sader325]

Grimlox, on 10 March 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

Not as if the WHM-7S is exactly OP and even if you happen to do well with it and think you would do as well or better with the Tempest by building it with the same brawling loadout it is entirely possible the Archer will be a complete fail as a brawler due to hitboxes. Looks a lot like the profile of a Mad Dog and we all know how well those do at brawling even though they have an amazing amount of missile hardpoints that look fantastic on paper.

EDIT: PGI has done a fine job of not allowing hero variants to be P2W. I own the Heavy Metal, Ilya Muromets, Yen Lo Wang, Pretty Baby, Flame, Dragon Slayer, Top Dog, and maybe one or two others I can't think of right now. Not one of those mechs is anywhere near best of class and none of them are clear best in chassis either. In fact more often than not they are well on the weak end of the spectrum. I'm doing my part of the P2W equation by paying but for some reason PGI isn't selling me win advantage mechs. Only conclusion I can draw at this point is it's not P2W yet after years of offering hero mechs and I have no reason to believe it ever will be.

Success in brawling is dependant on only one factor.

Reaching brawling range without being hit. This is something that I am very good at and understand quite well.

If a Mad Dog reaches brawl range without getting hit, it wins. When it comes to solo queue, I'm a ninja. I get my Maddog SRM brawler to places you'd never expect and end people quickly.

The archer is going to have 10 tons more armor than a maddog, move about the same speed and have ECM which only enhances my already stellar ninja skills.

It's going to be my sneakiest IS brawler to date, only rivaled by my SRM 36+A Archer for deadliness.

[Baelfire]

Prosperity Park, on 10 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

Both being delicious fruit served from the same basket.

However, since density is strong with you, I will rephrase. If a Thunderbolt/Stalker/Battlemaster/Blackjack/JagerMech Hero was released with ECM, then which Variant would be preferred by combatants?

Depends on hardpoints, quirks and builds. Remember that ECM Mechs usually get only small quirks, if they get quirks at all. If i have the choice between a Jagermech with ECM and almost no quirks and my JM6-DD, i would take my JM6-DD any time of the day if i want to run several UAC/5's.

The question is, if the ECM Timberwolf had negative quirks that resemble the reduced quirks on the IS Mechs, how many people would still chose the ECM variant? I would probably not.

Edited by Baelfire, 10 March 2016 - 09:59 AM.

[Triordinant]

Lucian Nostra, on 10 March 2016 - 09:49 AM, said:

3-5 mechs out of like 100 mechs would be p2w? And the pirates bane is adding to the total?

If Heroes are the ONLY variants of their chassis with ECM, then Yes. It doesn't matter how many 'mechs there are total. It's how many are the ONLY variants of their chassis that have ECM. Don't count the Pirate's Bane. There was no issue until the Tempest. The question is will the Tempest be the last example of a Hero being the only variant with ECM? Or is it the start of a P2W trend? We'll have to wait and see...

[Grimlox]

Sader325, on 10 March 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

Success in brawling is dependant on only one factor.

Reaching brawling range without being hit. This is something that I am very good at and understand quite well.

If a Mad Dog reaches brawl range without getting hit, it wins. When it comes to solo queue, I'm a ninja. I get my Maddog SRM brawler to places you'd never expect and end people quickly.

The archer is going to have 10 tons more armor than a maddog, move about the same speed and have ECM which only enhances my already stellar ninja skills.

It's going to be my sneakiest IS brawler to date, only rivaled by my SRM 36+A Archer for deadliness.

I don't think you can always rely on getting to the fight without taking a hit, although perhaps I underestimate your stellar ninja skills. I think what happens when you do get hit matters a lot too.

On a side note does your WHM brawler build have an upgraded engine? I ask since you said the Tempest would be about the same speed as a Mad Dog but I think the MDD goes 81 and the stock Tempest/WHM is only 64.8.

[Damia Savon]

Zerberus, on 10 March 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

The way ECM is now and with the number of ECM mechs available, it´s not really an issue, there I agree.

However: Does everyone still remember when the Hero locust came out as the only locust w /ECM? Where many people like myself weren´t crying about P2W, but did clearly warn about the precedent it establishes? And how we were told by the community that it would be a one time thing?

Yeah, so much for that... or the introduction of coolshots setting the precedent necessary to get 3PV through without a catastrophic amount of whining? Becasue both "would never be in the game"....

And yet when one attempts to apply the Slippery Slope reasoning to other major changes championed by some, specifically because of precedents like this, it´s called out as a logical fallacy.... Except that it´s not a fallacy if it´s verifiably happened exactly that way in the past, esp. if it was more than once. That it´s merely an observation of past events leading to a reasonable assumption as to how the same company will continue to act in the future if not given a reason specifically not to.

Which we probably won´t, becasue there will always be enough people that are vocal enough to get even the most harebrained idea through.... With all the long term results it brings with it.

This is exactly what happens when we simply accept things we don´t like instead of actively trying to change them. We get more and more things we don´t like, with the reasoning that what´s good for A is also good for B, and since A was ok with us B should be, too....

Apples and oranges...cool shot and 3pv are not the same as ECM. How many hero mechs came out between the PB and the Tempest? How many of those had ECM? How many are the best variant?

Basically, you would have a point if PGI started to make each Hero way better than the free versions. The Tempest has ECM because of the lore, which is far better justification than the PB has.

[Damia Savon]

Prosperity Park, on 10 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

Both being delicious fruit served from the same basket.

However, since density is strong with you, I will rephrase. If a Thunderbolt/Stalker/Battlemaster/Blackjack/JagerMech Hero was released with ECM, then which Variant would be preferred by combatants?

It depends on the quirks. Give the Arrow ECM and I won't take it over the other energy heavy varients. Give my Misery ECM and yeah that might make it better than other varients, if only because of its ballistic slot. ECM would not make the Firebrand preferred over the DD. I don't have the tbolt or battlemaster heroes so I can't judge those, but neither hero is currently the preferred choice and I doubt ECM is going to change that.

ECM can make a good mech excellent but won't make a bad mech good. Quirks, weapon mounts, hard point locations and engine size all come before ECM.

[Zerberus]

Damia Savon, on 10 March 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

Apples and oranges...cool shot and 3pv are not the same as ECM. How many hero mechs came out between the PB and the Tempest? How many of those had ECM? How many are the best variant?

Basically, you would have a point if PGI started to make each Hero way better than the free versions. The Tempest has ECM because of the lore, which is far better justification than the PB has.

Are we even discussing the the same thing? Are you sure? Maybe read it again...

Because my post has NOTHING whatsoever to do with the terribad´s P2W whining or heros being OP, or some other fictional boogeyman, those ideas are not even floated. I have no idea what depth of your subconscious you pulled that from, but it definitely wasn´t my post.

However, it does have EVERYTHING to do with the community regularly saying "Oh, it´s only one little thing , it will be OK" and then seeing exactly these threads pop up 6-12 months later criticising the exact same thing now being done multiple times.

Despite numerous precedents showing that that is exactly what will happen, as well as explicit warnings from members of the community that have been here long enough to see history repeat itself multiple times, and actually learn from that.

"Accept it once, accept it forever" is the basic modus operandi around here. And that is exactly and entirely why some things, like hero mechs w/ ECM as the only variant, or changes to basic BT build rules (10 HS min, crit sizes and tonnages) should not be (or have been) accepted by the community even once. Becasue they eventually all snowball into a Pandora´s Box. That´s just the way it´s worked around here since 2011, whether people believe it or not. Belief has no bearing on verifiable facts.

But what do I know, I´ve only been here since closed beta, so I never saw PGI actually make any of those changes, much less follow the discussions and watch exactly what myself and numerous others warned of unfold time and time and time again.

Seriously, If there´s one thing this community can be flabbergastingly resistant to, it´s learning from history so as not to repeat it. We see this constantly in game balance discussions and game mode discussions, where things that were previously tried and failed miserably are once again being touted as the be-all end-all problem solvers, despite having caused more problems than they solved the last time we had them.

Edited by Zerberus, 10 March 2016 - 10:39 AM.

[habu86]

I mean seriously though, if you're so convinced an ECM heavy is outright P2W, might I recommend the HBR? You can set it up almost identical to the tempest (1 less M hardpoint, but one extra E hardpoint), we know it's got solid hitboxes, and it's available now for c-bills.

Also, it's Clan so it comes with EZ-mode and instawin consumables

[Mechteric]

I find I care a bit less now since ECM doesn't have the large bubble it used to...


Though in my opinion ECM should be treated like GECM in BattleTech where it doesn't provide that benefit to friendly mechs in the vicinity. Instead we should have Angle ECM that does that as a separate piece of equipment that you can choose as an alternative to GECM in the ECM hardpoint.

[Sader325]

Grimlox, on 10 March 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

I don't think you can always rely on getting to the fight without taking a hit, although perhaps I underestimate your stellar ninja skills. I think what happens when you do get hit matters a lot too.

On a side note does your WHM brawler build have an upgraded engine? I ask since you said the Tempest would be about the same speed as a Mad Dog but I think the MDD goes 81 and the stock Tempest/WHM is only 64.8.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d61663375bcfdd3

This is off the top of my head. I know I didn't leave tonnage on the table. I can't login so I don't know the build exactly.

The archer can do something very similar to this, and it can do it with ECM.

habu86, on 10 March 2016 - 10:24 AM, said:

I mean seriously though, if you're so convinced an ECM heavy is outright P2W, might I recommend the HBR? You can set it up almost identical to the tempest (1 less M hardpoint, but one extra E hardpoint), we know it's got solid hitboxes, and it's available now for c-bills.

Also, it's Clan so it comes with EZ-mode and instawin consumables

My Hellbringer has 7 ER Small Lasers, 2 SRM 6+A, 3 tons of ammo and 25 heat sinks. It has ECM and pulls 600+ damage games regularly simply because its a ninja.

[Moomtazz]

Prosperity Park, on 10 March 2016 - 09:33 AM, said:

Both being delicious fruit served from the same basket.

However, since density is strong with you, I will rephrase. If a Thunderbolt/Stalker/Battlemaster/Blackjack/JagerMech Hero was released with ECM, then which Variant would be preferred by combatants?

It depends on hardpoints and quirks. The reason the TW can't be compared is that hardpoints are variable on omnimechs. But you do see people with Cheetahs who prefer to lose the ECM, so even there it is not always the 100% winner.

As far as battlemechs, look at what we already have. The only current ECM variants of IS Battlemechs that are the undisputed top variants are the Spider and Raven. Why would you assume the Archer would be?