482 replies to this topic

[FlareHeart Devalis]

kapusta11, on 17 December 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

PPC

Projectile speed: 1500
Heat: 10
CD: 4 sec
GH cap: 3

ERPPC

Projectile speed: 2000
Heat: 15
CD: 6 sec
GH cap: 3

cERPPC

Projectile speed: 2000
Heat: 15
CD: 6 sec
GH cap: 2
Damage: 12-13 FLD

I like the main post idea, however this is a bit much for heat on the clan side. Clan mechs have had their heat cap reduced, so making their ER PPCs maintain the same heat, while making the GH 2, would still keep these as unusably hot. 14 heat is as high as I would go for both the IS ER PPC and the Clan ER PPC.

[0bsidion]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

5 extra damage for 1 extra heat, while lighter, smaller? That is what I am saying. Compared to 10 dmg for 14 heat (or even 13..but 13 was tried before and the consequences were ugly).

Still feels off balanced, to me.

Ah, OK, I was pretty much just looking at the cERPPC and mostly just comparing it to clan laser family. It is surprising to hear that 13 heat had bad results. Must have been before my time, but crazy to think such a small change would have such a drastic effect.

Pariah Devalis, on 17 December 2015 - 12:33 PM, said:

Obsidion: I'd love it if clan ERPPC were 15, but the odds of that happening are next to zilch. Plus, I'm always a proponent of small changes at a time. If 12 or 13 still feels insufficient it could always get increased later.

Yeah, I know, but I figured I should lead with the big ask, so when I got whittled down to 12 or 13 it'd seem more reasonable

[Bishop Steiner]

0bsidion, on 17 December 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

Ah, OK, I was pretty much just looking at the cERPPC and mostly just comparing it to clan laser family. It is surprising to hear that 13 heat had bad results. Must have been before my time, but crazy to think such a small change would have such a drastic effect.


Yeah, I know, but I figured I should lead with the big ask, so when I got whittled down to 12 or 13 it'd seem more reasonable

the thing that makes it swing so easy is the combo of (potential) long range, and pp-fld. The beam duration helps keep lasers somewhat in check, but PPCs seem to swing from UP to OP on a dime.

[cSand]

The main issue for me, is that they explode on every single invisible terrain part. Keep the graphic the same, but just have a laser-size contact point or something so you can actually fire one through spaces etc without it blowing up on the way there

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Deathlike, on 17 December 2015 - 12:38 PM, said:

There's the Summoner's PPC arm and the Ice Ferret-Prime's PPC arm that has PPC quirks (which is laughable because it's just 1 arm and not a pair).

BJ-3s are hilarious though, and the PPC buffs apply to the ERPPC (10.5 heat ERPPCs to go with 7 heat PPCs).

Thank our balance overlord.

There's the Novatart too, with -6% heat gen and +15% velocity.

One indirect buff to PPCs I don't think people are looking at is dropping the damage back a smidge on the LPLs and cLPLs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 17 December 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

There's the Novatart too, with -6% heat gen and +15% velocity.

One indirect buff to PPCs I don't think people are looking at is dropping the damage back a smidge on the LPLs and cLPLs.

this is a good point, but it will surely cause frothing from our laservomit loving friends.

As for the Nova... probably gets overlooked because...well... Nova?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 17 December 2015 - 12:51 PM.

[Deathlike]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 17 December 2015 - 12:49 PM, said:

There's the Novatart too, with -6% heat gen and +15% velocity.

One indirect buff to PPCs I don't think people are looking at is dropping the damage back a smidge on the LPLs and cLPLs.

Well, CLPL is crazy efficient as it is, given what you trade in for heat (13 damage, 10 heat vs "15" damage, 15 heat).

[Mcgral18]

Roughneck45, on 17 December 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

Im not sure I'd touch the velocity on any of them for fear of syncing them up too well with AC5's again.

PPC- reduce heat by one
ER PPC- reduce heat by one and slight increase to velocity
Clan ER PPC- lessen the splash (I believe its 10 then 2.5 to adjacent sections now? maybe 12 and 1.5 would be enough of a buff)

May not be enough, but baby steps are better than nothing.

Well, they (vanilla) have a 50M/s difference for both PPCs (1100 VS 1150 VS 1200), so buffing PPCs could only separate that gap, moving towards the next fastest ballistic at 2KM/s of the Gauss.

They're almost in sync now.


PPCs are just not worth the cost, due to being short ranged and hot.
They were previously cool and long range, with minimal penalty up close. It's unlikely they'll ever be that good again.
It is a balancing act, but I feel the ERPPCs should be hot, long range, and not the same cooldown as brawling weapons (but GOOD at long range, not terrible).

Edited by Mcgral18, 17 December 2015 - 12:56 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Well i wrote up something big,,,lots of stuff, rebuttals to people.


PGI decided it wasnt important, after i "posted" it i was logged out and now its not here...


So again, i give up trying to discuss this because PGI's website sucks worse then most i find from free places with servers located in a 3rd world country.

Edited by DarthRevis, 17 December 2015 - 12:56 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Something to be said about turning all the weapons into wet paper balls. A baseline needs to be set. If lasers set the bar, balance based on those.
I think the heat, not the speed, is the single worst aspect of the erppc series on both sides. Yeah, it's slower than it used to be, but if you predict enough, you can do well with unquirked ERPPC velocity as far as hitting.  On the other hand, its heat?
A Warhawk with 30 DHS, 30, cannot fire just two ERPPC back to back more than four times. The heat tax is too damned high for its damage.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 December 2015 - 01:00 PM.

[cazidin]

Here's my solution for PPCS, ER PPCs and Clan ER PPCs.

IS PPC
Damage 10
Heat 8
Velocity 1,400 M/S

IS ER PPC
Damage 12 (or 10)
Heat 14 (or 13)
Velocity 1,600 M/S

Clan ER PPC
Damage 14 (or 10-12)
Heat 15 (or 13)
Velocity 1,600 M/S

[Pjwned]

-Leave PPC velocity alone, 1100 m/s is fine

Reason: at 1100 m/s it takes just under half a second to reach a target at optimal range, and that works just fine. PPC velocity was nerfed from 1500 m/s for a good reason, and after being corrected from a bit of an overnerf there's no need for it to be that fast again. If you want a faster PPC (that also reaches farther) then bring ER PPC instead; details below.

-Buff ER PPC to 1750 m/s velocity, give or take at most 100 m/s.

Reason: this makes the high optimal range on ER PPC actually useful, or if you just want a much faster PPC at the cost of extra heat then that works too. No other stat changes are needed, all that the ER PPC needs and has ever needed is to have high velocity (which is accomplished by making it take under half a second to reach the target at optimal range) and to not be worthless compared to the PPC, that's it.

-Buff C-ER PPC to 1600 m/s (or some number that's about 150-200 m/s slower than buffed ER PPC)

Reason: C-ER PPC still gets buffed from its current state, but also has an actual drawback (compared to the ER PPC) due to it being lighter and smaller and dealing extra splash damage for free; clan apologists who cry about having a small disadvantage (in 1 aspect) relative to IS tech will be ignored entirely.

-Instead of buffing PPC velocity, its minimum range penalty needs to be adjusted back to the way it was so that it doesn't do 0 damage at 89m and 10 damage at 90m because that's stupid; it should be similar to C-LRMs in that its damage ramps up from 0m to 89m.

Buffing PPC velocity and then having ER PPC remain only marginally faster is both an un-necessary buff to the PPC as well as continuing to make the ER PPC irrelevant. There's nothing wrong with PPC shots not reliably hitting targets at 800m+ out because it shouldn't (consistently) be used from that far away anyways, but it's obviously a different story with the ER PPC where that's its optimal range and thus needs to be useful up until at least those ranges.

Clan large pulse also needs its optimal range reduced to 545m so that the other 2 heavy clan energy weapon choices (C-ER LL and C-ER PPC) are actually considered for their range advantage.

Bam, pretty much everything with heavy energy weapons fixed in a few easy steps.

Edited by Pjwned, 17 December 2015 - 01:52 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

You could cut the range out of the lplas, it won't make people take the c erllas. That things burn time is stupidly long.

[Lily from animove]

I like the splash dmg, adds some flavour, why not gving is some additional splash dm? like 10+1

tbh, if PGI could code it they could change th entire [C]-[ER]PPC mechanics.

just make splash when outside optimum range the more its away from the optimum range, and for PPC even for below 90m

but removing the slpash and increasign any dmg is not what I think is good. we have enough PPFLD already. So unless someone seriosuly changes the heatsystem I don't like this idea.

Edited by Lily from animove, 17 December 2015 - 01:13 PM.

[Merit Lef]

My recommendation is follow the pattern of the cERPPC. Split the damage up for IS PPC as well. 7/1.5/1.5 arcing across the mech. Then drop the heat a little on all of them.

Have the PPCs disrupt the Hud or targeting reticle.

A lighter buff would also be increase the length that ecm is out when it is hit. Maybe 6 or 8 sec.

[Funkin Disher]

I've always liked the idea of having PPCs fire a small burst of front loaded damage, kind of like clan ACs but a smaller duration.
Fire one projectile, but the damage is dealt over a couple ticks (4, 3, 2, 1 for IS PPCs and 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 for Clan).

It keeps the current animation and the damage happens as the main blast and the trail connect, allowing a bit more heat efficiency and providing a bit of a compromise between PPFLD and Hitscan laser DoT.

But I know that wont happen, So i'll just advocate higher velocity and changing clan damage to 1/13/1. Maybe a heat reduction by 1 point too. Maybe.

[Aresye]

Pjwned, on 17 December 2015 - 01:07 PM, said:

Clan large pulse also needs its optimal range reduced to 545m so that the other 2 heavy clan energy weapon choices (C-ER LL and C-ER PPC) are actually considered for their range advantage.

Bam, pretty much everything with heavy energy weapons fixed in a few easy steps.

CERLL will need a reduction on its duration if it's going to take over the long range game from the CLPL. Not anything drastic, but perhaps something like 1.4 instead of 1.5.

Right now the only weapon that is really keeping Clan mechs viable is the CLPL, because it fits perfectly into the 600-900m range where IS mechs are at the extreme end of their LPL range. Anything closer and IS mechs hold the advantage with maneuverability, structure quirks, and weapon ranges. Anything farther and specific IS mechs hold the advantage in ERLL range, duration, and heat, or PPC and ERPPC boats with massive velocity quirks of 30-40%.

The 600-900m range is really the only true effective Clan range, and it's due to the CLPL (formerly CERML). Take that away and the Clans WILL end up needing a buff somewhere in order to compete.

And I'm not trying to Gyrok things up here either. I personally prefer Clan mechs because I like the lore behind their culture, and I think they look cooler. If things were perfectly balanced 1:1, I would primarily take Clan mechs, however (as I said before in my previous post) lately I've practically given up on trying to make Clan mechs work, choosing instead to run my BJs, Catapults, and Shadowhawks. I may be a Clan fanboy, but I'm a meta chaser first and foremost, and right now the IS gives me the bigger advantage.

[Big Tin Man]

Guys, I know and respect a lot of your opinions here, but you are all missing the real problem that brought the nerfing of PPC's in the first place

#neverforget
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ac5bad163cac11d

This guy. 60 point PPFLD GGCLOSE GETREKT SCRUB with 15 points of splash damage. He also had a cousin with more armor, more heatsinks but only 2 CERPPC's.

You need to make your balance decisions to stop this from coming back, while improving PPC's to a point where they're useful for all others.

Simply buffing the speed and tweaking heat will bring this meta darling back in an instant. Don't kid yourselves, it will happen. The cooldowns were not usually relevant, as it typically would 1 shot KO a damaged medium, or drop a fresh IS XL Medium with a shoulder hit. Two alpha's in 5 seconds takes the shoulder off a king crab.

Maybe the answer is to link gauss, LL, LPL's and PPC's in the same ghost heat category as high energy weapons? Apply stupidly massive penalties for more than 3 shot at once? Some other draconian measure?

THE DIREWOLF MUST BE ADDRESSED.

[kapusta11]

Mcgral18, on 17 December 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

Not 2KM/s as it would sync too well with the Gauss.

+-200M/s at least. isERPPC faster, cERPPC slower (because more damage).
Gauss change has also taught me 6 seconds is a touch too long. 5.5s is the highest I would go, but that would be a 2500M/s isERPPC.

I remenber PGI saying they have a way to limit Gauss + PPC combo like one of PPCs won't fire while Gauss was charged or 0.5 sec after that, don't know the details though, why not use that?

Also I intentionally synced Gauss and ER PPCs in both cooldown (cause otherwise it's a wasted dps) and projectile speed (cause not being able to do 25-30 or 35 damage to one component is one of the reasons why no one uses PPCs, you can simply do more with lasers if you're good with them, plus ER ones are hot so that's a balancing factor too and they are supposed to be sniper weapon just like Gauss ...and on paper you have "mixed" loadout)

6 sec cooldown indeed might be to much, 5.5 is probably better but all the cooldown quirks should be removed for said weapons. In the end you can pull out cooldown/dps and heat card when someone starts whining.

Would be nice to see those values being tested on PTS.

FlareHeart Devalis, on 17 December 2015 - 12:43 PM, said:

I like the main post idea, however this is a bit much for heat on the clan side. Clan mechs have had their heat cap reduced, so making their ER PPCs maintain the same heat, while making the GH 2, would still keep these as unusably hot. 14 heat is as high as I would go for both the IS ER PPC and the Clan ER PPC.

Last time I checked smurfy Clan mechs still had higher or in the worst case the same heat cap simply because they carry more heat sinks. And 0.15 dissipation means you have 1 more DHS per 15 external heat sinks, not much but still something.

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

longer cooldown, with higher velocity is just going to encourage more peek sniping. While actually net making them run cooler in the process.

It's a sniper weapon after all and heat coupled with low dps will make builds that rely on said weapon prone to be rushed. A disadvantage to be exploited right there.

Edited by kapusta11, 17 December 2015 - 02:03 PM.

[Malleus011]

I'm in support of the OP; since any 'mech intended to use PPCs apparently has to have a 40% velocity quirk to even try to compete, they base weapon(s) obviously need a boost. Having just run through a bunch of Marauder builds using PPCs (and trying to use ERPPCs) they are a bit hot for what you get, and you can currently always do better with an LPL.

As an alternate idea to scaling the min-range damage for the PPC, I suggest adding splash damage of 5/2.5/2.5 to the PPC when fired under 90m. This renders the PPC less effective against small, fast targets, or targets you are trying to leg.

*edit* And I suppose you could link the PPC/ERPPC and Gauss Rifle into the same Ghost Heat group.

Edited by Malleus011, 17 December 2015 - 01:43 PM.