482 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Malagant, on 18 December 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Because that is not a massive advantage at all is it?

You've also got to consider the cooling.

Clams can easily mount 20DHS on even their Mediums. IS mechs have trouble doing that with Assaults.
Add additional slots and tonnage, it changes things.

So do quirks, but those can be changed.

[Bishop Steiner]

Summon3r, on 18 December 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

i can get behind all your ideas, my only point to add would be that ALL ppc variety weapons have the same speed. id be happy to keep splash dmg on the c-erppc if we got a reduced point of heat and like you said for the other ppc's 1400-1500ms MINIMUM..... i still think these weapons should be blue lightning as they were described in the books

bottom line im happy with any ppc buff as they are my weapon of choice for the 1 simple reason, they look awesome when they hit a target oh and htey look far better then little laser box weapons we have lol

Yeah, I see what you are saying. I specifically kept the C-ERPPC slower because in my idea it's doing more PPD, and well, it weighs a ton less, and 1 less crit. Since the Clan Mythos actually favors closer engagements, than sniping, I figured a little slower would not really hurt it, except in the case of those people who want to hang back and spam. (which I don't want to encourage on any form of PPC, tbh)

[kapusta11]

This is pointless, community will never agree on anything. Reliable 30-35 FLD alpha was wat made PPCs useful. So what if it synced with Gauss? It's not like people sync it with normal PPC and not the hot one. It's not like people have not suggested longer cooldown to balance it even more. "But longer cooldown makes it more heat efficient" - sorry what?!, with poor dps you'll get your аss handed to you in a single well coordinated push. And you know how much Gauss + 2x ERPPC loadout weight? How much space it takes up and how many heatsinks you can fit in? Not talking about clan tech here. A rare assault will be able to carry it without XL engine and for heavies XL is pretty much a must. People actually gave the idea a though before they post whatever numbers they post.

PGI bragged that they've came up with a mechanic that will limit the number of weapons that can be fired simultaneously in Gauss PPC combo before they nerfed the shіt out of PPC (actually, I remember a poll where this solution actually won) why not use that to balance extreme cases like Direwolf?

Edited by kapusta11, 18 December 2015 - 09:16 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Widowmaker1981, on 18 December 2015 - 08:47 AM, said:

I also use PPCs a great deal, despite them not being all that optimal - but i think they should be slightly 'OP' compared to lasers, simply because they have a higher skill ceiling. The lowest skill ceiling being the most effective is bad for ttk overall.. but it does help to reduce the gap between the best and the average..

while it does technically require a tad more skill, it also has that huge risk/reward bonus being PP/FLD. You can shoot, twist, scoot or drop. It's one reason Poptarting used to be much more effective... beam duration makes lasers MEH for real, effective jump sniping. Problem is with PPCs, once they hit the OP threshold, that PP-FLD nature makes them way more reward than risk.

[Malagant]

Mcgral18, on 18 December 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

You've also got to consider the cooling.

Clams can easily mount 20DHS on even their Mediums. IS mechs have trouble doing that with Assaults.
Add additional slots and tonnage, it changes things.

So do quirks, but those can be changed.

And yet with all those dhs clans can mount, they STILL RUN BLAZING HOT! All the drawbacks, none of the rewards...

[Pariah Devalis]

Malagant, on 18 December 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

And yet with all those dhs clans can mount, they STILL RUN BLAZING HOT! All the drawbacks, none of the rewards...

Just tested. Firing just two ERPPC on a WHK with 28 Clan DHS on a heat neutral map while stationary, it could fire the two guns 7 times before immediately over heating. Now, this is just the two ERPPC. This is not taking into account any other weapon systems that might be on the mech. Of course, to cram 28 DHS on anything you won't have the room or tonnage to put much else on the mech anyways. Two ERPPC and 1 LPLas, again with 28 DHS, only fire 4 times before immediately overheating and shutting down the mech. The heat, per ERPPC, is just absolutely saturating the DHS.

Combined with how laser weapons in MWO actually stall out the cooling until they stop shooting, it makes it extremely hard to cool. Your mech will actually not begin to cool, despite any number of heat sinks, until any laser you are currently firing stops its burn duration.

If it is this bad on a Clan mech, it is even worse on an IS mech which simply cannot run the same number of DHS.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 18 December 2015 - 09:32 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Malagant, on 18 December 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

And yet with all those dhs clans can mount, they STILL RUN BLAZING HOT! All the drawbacks, none of the rewards...

Same goes for the isERPPC, but hotter, because fewer DHS.

Also less damage, heavier, larger.



As a family, they are hot weapons.

[Pariah Devalis]

Add on to prior:

Changes to the PPC/ERPPC/C-ERPPC would probably most largely benefit smaller mechs that simply cannot take many guns. Case example: take the Shadow Cat. Few hard points, moderate to low tonnage to mount anything. A more typical "non-t1" Clan mech, it only has enough room for 13-15 DHS, and seems like it would benefit from a "one big gun" approach to mech design.

For this example, I will use a 2 ERPPC, 14 DHS Shadow Cat. Again, heat neutral map while stationary.

With just 1 ERPPC it can fire it 14 times. This is nothing new, though. 1 ERPPC on its own, as the only weapon, isn't too bad. Firing 2 ERPPC? It suddenly goes from being able to fire 14 times, to being able to fire 3 times, shut down, and power back on with internal structure damage. One additional ERPPC. That's it. A single additional ERPPC reduced the mech's ability to fire down to about 1/5 of its prior ability to sink. All for the gain of only 10 additional damage per shot (where it counts). I could take two medium lasers instead, and fill the rest of the tonnage in DHS, and deal more damage more sustainably. The ERPPC is, if I am not mistaken, the only weapon in the game with a negative Damage:Heat ratio.

This is a far more fair representation of the state of how obscenely hot ERPPC are in the current state, across both Clan and IS tech trees for the damage they provide. And a single ERPPC? A single one is too wimpy to be relied upon. It simply isn't worth taking just 1 ERPPC of either tech tree. Not under normal circumstances, anyways.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 18 December 2015 - 10:08 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Malagant, on 18 December 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

And yet with all those dhs clans can mount, they STILL RUN BLAZING HOT! All the drawbacks, none of the rewards...

Delta Galaxy?

Pariah Devalis, on 18 December 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

Just tested. Firing just two ERPPC on a WHK with 28 Clan DHS on a heat neutral map while stationary, it could fire the two guns 7 times before immediately over heating. Now, this is just the two ERPPC. This is not taking into account any other weapon systems that might be on the mech. Of course, to cram 28 DHS on anything you won't have the room or tonnage to put much else on the mech anyways. Two ERPPC and 1 LPLas, again with 28 DHS, only fire 4 times before immediately overheating and shutting down the mech. The heat, per ERPPC, is just absolutely saturating the DHS.

Combined with how laser weapons in MWO actually stall out the cooling until they stop shooting, it makes it extremely hard to cool. Your mech will actually not begin to cool, despite any number of heat sinks, until any laser you are currently firing stops its burn duration.

If it is this bad on a Clan mech, it is even worse on an IS mech which simply cannot run the same number of DHS.

and yet my best damage dealing Clan Mech, is my 2x ERPPC + UAC20 Warhawk.... hmmmmm.
WHK-A
44% ....more heat efficient than most of my IS Medium builds.

And My TBR, SCR, ACH, WHK, DWF, HBR and (I would say EBJ but don' tactualyl own them) all far outsrip any of my IS mechs for damage per match.

HUH.

[Pariah Devalis]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 10:13 AM, said:

Delta Galaxy?


and yet my best damage dealing Clan Mech, is my 2x ERPPC + UAC20 Warhawk.... hmmmmm.
WHK-A
44% ....more heat efficient than most of my IS Medium builds.

And My TBR, SCR, ACH, WHK, DWF, HBR and (I would say EBJ but don' tactualyl own them) all far outsrip any of my IS mechs for damage per match.

HUH.

Yeah, the WHK is lucky in that it can fit that many DHS. Which is why I did the followup in a more ... shall we say... "tech neutral" mech. One with about as many DHS as you would expect in an IS platform. The double whammy of reduced heat cap and reduced heat dissipation smaller mechs suffer as a result of fewer heat sinks is felt exponentially more.

On a related note: the changes to Clan DHS with reduced cap and very, very, VERY slightly increased cooling rate only exacerbate the matters. Smaller mechs with fewer sinks gain very little to nothing and lose out on that cap, whereas larger mechs that can stack the DHS gain a lot more tangible benefit to the increased cooling rate. I don't think I'd say it is enough of a tangible benefit, but they feel it significantly more than the smaller ones.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 18 December 2015 - 10:22 AM.

[Quaamik]

For reference my comments below refer to ALL PPCs (PPC, ERPPC and C-ERPPC).

They need some love. This is what I think would fix them, in order of priority.

1) Fix the hit registry. Either fix the holes in the mech models or make the “projectile” large enough so it doesn’t matter. The ACs don’t have this issue, PPCs shouldn’t either.
(I know you said “aside from better hit detection”, but that is the BIGGEST problem with PPCs. Without it being fixed, nothing else will matter.
2) Eliminate the min range of PPCs (only relates to the IS PPC). It’s not a big change, but makes it more viable.
3) Fix the damage assignment from the C-ERPPC. Either get the damage to register spread as it is, or concentrate it to one component (even if it has to be reduced).
4) Re-balance the heat / damage / RoF. PPCs should be able to comparable damage over time to Large Lasers / ER Large Lasers with similar heat.
5) I don’t see a need to change the velocity. The current velocity acts as a balance vs the “unlimited ammo” for long range. For shorter ranges the drawback is the excessive heat vs damage (velocity is fast enough).

Current:
IS
LL – 9 dmg / 7 heat / 1.00s beam / 3.25s cool down / 450m range / 900m max
PPC – 10 dmg / 10 heat / 0s beam / 4.00s cool down / 540m range / 1080m max / minimum 90 m range
ERLL – 9 dmg / 8 heat / 1.25s beam / 3.25s cool down / 675m range / 1350m max
ERPPC – 10 dmg / 15 heat / 0s beam / 4.00s cool down / 810m range / 1620m max

Clan
ERLL – 11 dmg / 10 heat / 1.50s beam / 3.25s cool down / 740m range / 1480m max
ERPPC – 15 dmg* / 15 heat / 0s beam / 4.00s cool down / 810m range / 1620m max (*10 on component hit, 2.5 on each of two adjacent components)

Proposed:
IS
PPC – 13.5 dmg / 10.5 heat / 0s beam / 4.00s cool down / 540m range / 1080m max / no minimum range
ERPPC – 13.5 dmg / 12 heat / 0s beam / 4.00s cool down / 810m range / 1620m max

Clan
ERPPC – 15 dmg* / 13.5 heat / 0s beam / 4.00s cool down / 810m range / 1620m max (*10 on component hit, 2.5 on each of two adjacent components)

Reasoning:

Currently you can fire a C-ER Large Laser 3 times in 11 seconds, doing 33 damage and for 30 heat. A C-ERPPC can fire 2 times in that same 11 seconds for 30 points of damage and 30 heat over that same time period. On the IS side, a ER LL fires 3 times in 10.25 seconds for 27 damage and 24 heat, while a ERPPC fires 2 times for 20 damage and 30 heat. The PPCs enjoy the “instant” fire and concentrated damage vs a beam duration, but balance that with a slower projectile speed than the beam, the chance of a complete miss, and the concentrated heat spike of “instant” fire. The PPCs have an edge in max range, but the projectile velocity means that at extreme ranges, hits are less common.

To balance with a C-ERLL, a C-ERPPC should be at 15 dmg / 13.5 heat per shot. To balance with an IS ERLL, an IS ERPPC should be at 13.5 dmg / 12 heat per shot. A base IS PPC should match up with an IS LL and deliver 13.5 dmg / 10.5 heat per shot (compared to 10 dmg / 10 heat it currently can deliver). These numbers would put the PPCs on par with the LLs for damage and heat over a short exchange (3 shots from the LLs vs 2 shots from the PPCs). To accommodate the sustained RoF comparison, that might mean tweaking the cool down of PPCs to more exactly match LLs cool down plus beam duration. Then again, since the PPCs have more weight and take up more slots, that balancing might not be needed.

[Lyoto Machida]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

why quirk 80 mechs when one can implement INTELLIGENT fixes to the weapon itself?

Quirks should be MINOR, and icing on the cake. They already ARE the cake in many cases. We certainly don't need more reliance on them.

You already know PGI never does the less complicated solution...

[Bishop Steiner]

Lyoto Machida, on 18 December 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

You already know PGI never does the less complicated solution...

[Quaamik]

While I didn't mention it, they should remove almost all PPC quirks at the same time.

Maybe keep something on the Awesome, because it's sooooo bad. But even then I'd limit it to slight buffs like slightly less heat, slightly faster recycle times, and maybe a tiny velocity tweak.

[Almond Brown]

Karl Streiger, on 18 December 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

Aye right but the ammunition possible on our mechs let me giggle - and yes Lasers should not be able to create dps as ballistics or even missiles.
They should be the long term strategy - but when did you run dry the last time?
3 or 4 tons of ammo per weapon is the rule not the exception.
We know that you can't use rnr but what about a ammo cap? For example just twice the ammo capacity the Stock mech had +/- ammo storrage Modules or quirks

But that is what separates a "good" build from a truly "efficient". build If you never run out of ammo you are carrying to much. Given that, your build may likely lack something else that could improve that Mech even more. hat is why 1/2 tons is a wondrous thing.

Depends on play style of course but an "efficient build" is always better that just a "good build" that may contain waste weight.

Edited by Almond Brown, 18 December 2015 - 11:12 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

why quirk 80 mechs when one can implement INTELLIGENT fixes to the weapon itself?

Quirks should be MINOR, and icing on the cake. They already ARE the cake in many cases. We certainly don't need more reliance on them.

Here's the deal...maybe because I'm a BAD I get away with it.... but I am willing to bet I use more PPCs than almost any Tier 1 commenting...because "1337s" don't use "bad" weapon with regularity. And I run em on almost everything, because... I like lightning. PPCs and ERPPCs are NOT actually BAD atm, even unquirked. But they are far from being a dominant factor, currently. The lie is that one NEEDS 2000 m/s to make them work, etc. Truth is, people want them to be ezmode again. Fill the skies with lightning.

There is a reason I was very specific about the number recommended, and part of that is to leave room for mechs like the AWS-8Q and 9M, the CPLT-K2, the WHK to have that little "extra" something for PPCs with quirks. But the speeds and such I recommended would leave the unquirked ones in a decent place. The danger is that the nature of PPCs makes it super easy to slip from "UP" to "OP". I would prefer to leave them a shade "under optimal" as a whole, to keep PPCgaddeon from returning.

Lastly, as an iterative buff, it leaves room to be tuned up a notch if still felt insufficient, instead of the usual 0 to OP in 2.3 second approach.

But buffing PPC's as a whole basically quirks every Energy carrier and the thought is some should be better at PPC's than others right? And you noted, the razors edge is always there. They are "the suck" or "omg crazy". Just a matter of perspective over-all really.

Being among the heaviest of the Energy weapons allowed, seeing Light Mechs with more than one is already crazy when the Chassis's that are truly meant to carry them, the AWS say, can hardly use them at all as it is. That just doesn't seem at all right.

The LPL is just a better choice, range be damned.

Edited by Almond Brown, 18 December 2015 - 11:23 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Karl Streiger, on 18 December 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

Aye right but the ammunition possible on our mechs let me giggle - and yes Lasers should not be able to create dps as ballistics or even missiles.
They should be the long term strategy - but when did you run dry the last time?
3 or 4 tons of ammo per weapon is the rule not the exception.
We know that you can't use rnr but what about a ammo cap? For example just twice the ammo capacity the Stock mech had +/- ammo storrage Modules or quirks

I run dry on at least half my matches. Which is my goal.

Almond Brown, on 18 December 2015 - 11:21 AM, said:

But buffing PPC's as a whole basically quirks every Energy carrier and the thought is some should be better at PPC's than others right? And you noted, the razors edge is always there. They are "the suck" or "omg crazy". Just a matter of perspective over-all really.

Being among the heaviest of the Energy weapons allowed, seeing Light Mechs with more than one is already crazy when the Chassis's that are truly meant to carry them, the AWS say, can hardly use them at all as it is. That just doesn't seem at all right.

aaaaand, if you note the nature of the buffs I proposed?

It makes ppcs better as a class, but if you think it is going to start a new meta, I would say it's unlikely. It enhances all 3 PPC, gives each a niche, and leaves room for certain traditional PPC mechs to still get quirks without turning it into the TDR-9S issue all over again.

[Almond Brown]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 11:24 AM, said:

I run dry on at least half my matches. Which is my goal.


aaaaand, if you note the nature of the buffs I proposed?

It makes ppcs better as a class, but if you think it is going to start a new meta, I would say it's unlikely. It enhances all 3 PPC, gives each a niche, and leaves room for certain traditional PPC mechs to still get quirks without turning it into the TDR-9S issue all over again.

A real quick check shows +28 variants with PPC velocity quirks. Clan ones are low compared to I.S. That seems a good cross section. Most also have +energy heat reduction, + energy range and - energy CD. If someone always wants "THEIR" favorite Mech to have the best of what it can carry, that will never be actually achievable.

if one want a Mech that does PPC better than an other, pick one quirked for it and call it a done deal. Otherwise PGI will be at this forever and very unlikely to please most anyways...

Edited by Almond Brown, 18 December 2015 - 11:36 AM.

[Equalizer]

I've been playing with 4 PPC, 4 ERPPC, and 2 ERPPC/Gauss Marauder 3R lately and the conclusion is:

4 LPL beat any of the above combos both in quick play and CW.

Keep in mind that is on a heavily quirked mech - both regular and ER PPCs get 50% bonus velocity and -10% heat, while LPLs get meager -5% heat only.

In a nutshell, my ideas to fix PPCs are mostly in-line with what people mentioned in previous posts:

Fix projectile size/hit detection
Bring down IS ERPPC heat to 14 and iterate from there, keep clan version at 15
Bump speed to 1400-1500m/s
Change clan ERPPC damage to 13/1/1, instead of 10/2.5/2.5

The reasoning behind all of these lies in the wall of text below.

• Hit registration - abysmal, even with the 1800m/s ERPPCs. Projectiles just sink into terrain, unless you aim several meters away. Makes it nearly impossible to hit mechs that fire over a hill or around a corner.

Solution here could be to reduce the projectile size (as mentioned a few times in this thread), but I feel a complete rework/recode of the visual is needed.

• Heat - PPCs are pretty manageable at 10 heat, ERPPCs are not - on heat neutral map with 18 DHS, you may fire a pair three times before overheating and then run around for like 15-20 sec to cool off. Mind you, this is with 13.5 heat ERPPCs because of quirks. Combined with the poor hit reg, this makes them inferior to lasers, where you can ride the heat scale almost indefinitely by firing one at a time.

Solution - ERPPC reduction to 14 heat might help a bit, although I doubt it would make much of a difference in the end. Still, better to iterate in small increments than bringing heat down by 2-3 points.

• Velocity and sync with Gauss - as hinted above, the config I tried is nearly perfectly synced - 1800m/s ERPPCs and 2000m/s gauss.

It doesn't work very well, to say the least - 35 PPFLD is not nearly as impressive in 2015, as it was before clans came out. What usually happens is you may fire a few shots, then an EBJ (insert random laser boat here) would take notice of you, get close, barf twice and move past your wreck. To be honest, this weapon combo only worked well because of poptarts back in the day, due to minimum exposure in mid-flight. Now you'll eat full laser durations nearly every time you fire.

On the other hand, 1800m/s ERPPCs feel damn nice - you can actually hit moving targets at long distances, as well as lights zapping around at 140+ kph.

Solution - bump speed to 1400-1500m/s. Maybe tone down some of the quirked mechs, but I wouldn't worry too much about those - most of them will remain pretty bad compared to the top dogs.

• Clan ERPPCs - my impressions are from a pop-tart Nova and 28 DHS Warhawk, both with 15% velocity quirk and TC2. They can work fairly well with cautious heat management, but the splash damage is meaningless and you basically get the same thing as the IS version, for less slots and weight.

Solution - keep heat at 15, change damage to 13/1/1 instead of 10/2.5/2.5, buff speed to 1400-1500m/s. Still worse than clan LPLs, but could at least be considered as an alternative.

[Felio]

Slowing down the PPC to desync it from Gauss was a joke to begin with. Should have gone full nerfherder and done the chargeup thing they were considering (can't charge a gauss and fire a PPC at the same time, or maybe it was 2 PPC, something like that).

Knowing it won't be paired with gauss gives you room to make it a better weapon.