482 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Almond Brown, on 18 December 2015 - 06:19 AM, said:

You cannot allow PPC velocities to creep up even near that of the Gauss Rifle, otherwise, quirked or not, the Synergy is just to good and then all you would see GR and (er)PPC builds and yup the Laser Meta is done, but the alternative in not really any better...

My numbers are not final.. it's the concept that the IS ERPPC needs a velocity buff beyond the Clan ERPPC to make up for benefits the Clan ERPPC and IS PPC have over the IS ERPPC.

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

why quirk 80 mechs when one can implement INTELLIGENT fixes to the weapon itself?

Quirks should be MINOR, and icing on the cake. They already ARE the cake in many cases. We certainly don't need more reliance on them.

Here's the deal...maybe because I'm a BAD I get away with it.... but I am willing to bet I use more PPCs than almost any Tier 1 commenting...because "1337s" don't use "bad" weapon with regularity. And I run em on almost everything, because... I like lightning. PPCs and ERPPCs are NOT actually BAD atm, even unquirked. But they are far from being a dominant factor, currently. The lie is that one NEEDS 2000 m/s to make them work, etc. Truth is, people want them to be ezmode again. Fill the skies with lightning.

There is a reason I was very specific about the number recommended, and part of that is to leave room for mechs like the AWS-8Q and 9M, the CPLT-K2, the WHK to have that little "extra" something for PPCs with quirks. But the speeds and such I recommended would leave the unquirked ones in a decent place. The danger is that the nature of PPCs makes it super easy to slip from "UP" to "OP". I would prefer to leave them a shade "under optimal" as a whole, to keep PPCgaddeon from returning.

Lastly, as an iterative buff, it leaves room to be tuned up a notch if still felt insufficient, instead of the usual 0 to OP in 2.3 second approach.

You can "get away" with using slower PPCs/ERPPCs, but when you're playing against better players... those deficiencies are going to be magnified. You won't be able to use them as efficiently as one that is quirked better (usually "effective range" thru velocity, and occasionally heat quirks).

I can get away with LBX and LRMs when my opponent isn't intelligent.. it doesn't mean those weapons are good in the overall scheme of things.

For PPCs, I bother using the BJ-3 due to the crazy quirks it has... but I'd less consider something like an Awesome for the same role... and certainly not even think about it for mechs that don't have said PPC quirks at all (Stalkers). Part of it is "optimization"/min-maxing, but if the baseline weapon isn't really good.. it becomes a mere afterthought in overall play (as the meta itself does trickle down to more general opinion).

Malagant, on 18 December 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

I am curious why you think IS ERPPC should be 500m/s faster than the clan version?

Name one benefit that the ERPPC has over the Clan ERPPC. Good luck with that.

Although you could fit a Clan ERPPC in some CTs of Clan Mechs (not that it is a dealbreaker, but it's there if you really wanted to do it), the reality is that there isn't one thing that the IS ERPPC would allow it to stand out compared to the Clan versions outside of velocity. Unless you do some silly heat reduction (we're talking about moving it back to the insane PPC meta where it was at a nice "12") w/o trying to screw over the IS PPC (which would indirectly mean a heat reduction buff - something we'd kinda like to avoid at all possible) AND the IS LPL... velocity is the best solution that makes the most sense.

Malagant, on 18 December 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

Because that is not a massive advantage at all is it?

Even back when we had stuffed Stalkers to the brim with DHS, a 75-ton Clan Timberwolf can stuff MORE of them (Warhawk would be the Stalker's equivalent) and that's being nice.

It requires actual mech building to actually know this... not just theorycrafting... you have to play it to see it in action.

[Quaamik]

The gauss charge up is bad enough. It's damn hard to sync it with PPCs now unless you are either very skilled or using some coding. As it is now the gauss is broken (IMHO). It's rare to see the dedicated gauss builds running gauss only.

De syncing it from PPCs should take a different tact. Make the code so that fireing one disrupts the other for x time (.5 seconds is more than enough). But that will only work if you get rid of the gauss charge up, otherwise you won't be able to have them both on the same mech.

Back to purely PPCs: A velocity increase will make them easier to use, but it easily crosses into the sniper meta. With an unlimited number of shots, a mech armed with ERPPCs or CERPPCs can pop away at any target it sees. Miss 4 out of 5? It's not like your running out of ammo. High heat? It's not like your being pressured - you can pause and cool down. Increase the velocity to where quirked mechs are at 2000 mps and you will see s lot of snipers.

Keeping the velocity where it is, or a very slight buff while losing all the quirks, and lowering the heat puts it back into a mid range weapon. Still slow to fire for close range, yet hard to connect on a moving mech at extreme ranges. It's pinpoint damage and long range at full damage makes it still viable as a long range weapon, but only in somewhat skilled hands.

[Quaamik]

PPCs currently suffer from:
- Poor hit registration. Note that I do not mean the ease of hitting with it like some posters implied. Nor how often it hits objects (even invisible ones). I mean the amount of time where it hits an opponent and does no damage. Or when several hit and only a fraction of the damage is dealt.
- Enormous heat penalties. The best for this is the original PPC at 10 for 10. That makes it the worst of any weapon in the game, except of course for the c-ERPPC and the ERPPC.
- Slow recharge. Only the AC20’s, Ultra AC20s and Gauss are as bad or worse for direct fire weapons. LRM 10s and above are as bad or worse as well, but there game mechanic is far different (almost not comparable). To really understand, realize that every other direct fire weapon with a 4.00 second recharge or higher does at least 15 points of pinpoint damage. Except the PPC family, which does 10 if the scripting recognizes the hit.
- Low damage for heat. The only other weapon that has a negative ratio of damage to heat is the flamer (note how broken they are, and they put heat into the target). No other weapon has even a 1-1 ratio of damage to heat.
- minimum range restrictions on the base PPC. IS LRMs have this also, but they have longer ranges and can fire indirect over objects.

Note I didn’t list velocity as a drawback. Comparing it to the AC5s, AC10s and AC20s (IS and Clan versions) as well as the LBX10s & 20, and Ultra AC5, 10 & 20 the velocity is not bad. It only seems bad if you want it for a sniper build.

Leaving out the hit registration issue (which has to be fixed or the rest is meaningless), and the minimum range which only affects the standard PPC, fix any one of the other three and they become viable.

[Lockon StratosII]

Curccu, on 18 December 2015 - 12:09 AM, said:

It's called AC2, one of the most useless weapons in the game, still after heat reduction and "massive" crit buff.

To 60-70%, not by 60-70%. Put it somewhere between AC5 and AC10 and make pairing 2 of them with some ACs not a "no brainer" combo (also probably keep the splash for cerppc)

[Bishop Steiner]

Lockon StratosII, on 18 December 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

To 60-70%, not by 60-70%. Put it somewhere between AC5 and AC10 and make pairing 2 of them with some ACs not a "no brainer" combo (also probably keep the splash for cerppc)

PPCs are supposed to hit like sledgehammers. I really can't say I would be in support of reducing that aspect, for well, ANY reason.

[Chados]

I'd like to see two things, and I'm sure these are tremendously stupid requests but they sound good from the perspective of a Marauder driver....

More Speed.
And a field inhibitor disable toggle for standard PPCs.

[Lockon StratosII]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 07:07 PM, said:

PPCs are supposed to hit like sledgehammers. I really can't say I would be in support of reducing that aspect, for well, ANY reason.

They should, if we were to have 30 heat scale that prevents alphaing, which sadly we don't have. We have tried every other tweak beside reducing dmg. At 10 dmg they are no brainer pick for any ac ppc combo because of the dmg/tonnage ratio they have. If you drop them to lets say 7, picking 2 ppc over gauss would be inferior choice and 2ppc 2ac5 would "only" do 24 dmg for high heat investment. They would still be potent as before because of the reduced cooldown but still as hot in prolonged fights. Honestly, whatever they do with them to make them viable, if they stay at 10 dmg you will see the return of poptarts, unless they change the way they do damage to targets.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lockon StratosII, on 18 December 2015 - 07:26 PM, said:

They should, if we were to have 30 heat scale that prevents alphaing, which sadly we don't have. We have tried every other tweak beside reducing dmg. At 10 dmg they are no brainer pick for any ac ppc combo because of the dmg/tonnage ratio they have. If you drop them to lets say 7, picking 2 ppc over gauss would be inferior choice and 2ppc 2ac5 would "only" do 24 dmg for high heat investment. They would still be potent as before because of the reduced cooldown but still as hot in prolonged fights. Honestly, whatever they do with them to make them viable, if they stay at 10 dmg you will see the return of poptarts, unless they change the way they do damage to targets.

No, we really won't. Otherwise the mechs with massive velocity tweaks on them now, would already be shown more favor...and yet, the PPC is still pretty much gone like the Dodo.

[Lockon StratosII]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 December 2015 - 07:41 PM, said:

No, we really won't. Otherwise the mechs with massive velocity tweaks on them now, would already be shown more favor...and yet, the PPC is still pretty much gone like the Dodo.

Because they are too hot to use right now. If you drop the heat and they can be used reliably in pairs = ppc ac combo on anything that can field it. If you on the other hand increase velocity = extreme range gauss synergy (with the help of macro, I know you have velocity quirks right now in game, but this would enable a wide spectrum of mechs to use that combo, not just a select few). If you do both, well we all remember how that went. The way I see it, its either drop the dmg + something to compensate for it or change the way how it deals dmg because right now its a 7 (6) ton ac10 that uses heat as ammo. But then again who knows what will they come up with

[Zordicron]

KK, my two c-bills:

I will start with clan, as it is kinda the oddball.

Clan ERPPC: First, unless there is some secret patch where mixing IS and clan tech is allowed is in the works, comparing the IS and clan PPC's for some kind of family role is marginally relevant at best. When considering how the CERPPC functions, we don;t need to worry about how an IS ERPPC functions, because we can;t mount them anyway- same with PPC. What does a CERPPC compete against for the energy hardpoint? LASERS. (And lolflamer, or a tag, but thats moot) So, and this is especially important for the clans if Russ wants to "break up the laser meta"(I mean, c'mon man, clan laser barf is like the definition of laser meta) We don;t need to worry about CERPPC vs an IS LPL, or really any IS weapon unless they are planning on mixtech eventually.

That said, we need to find a place for CERPPC somewhere in themix of ERML/LPL/ERLL and of course consider how it would work paired with goosewaffle and the other AC's(to a lesser extent with bustfire)

IMO, I have never had an issue hitting a target with a CERPPC. now, register of the hit? hahahahha. So, IMO, velocity really isn't what keeps CERPPC out of the hands of most players. it's the bad HSR, and the HEAT. Sure, laser barf is hot. But it's not CERPPC hot for the dmg- and especially the point and click aim of lasers. If we want to make CERPPC more appealing, it needs heat reduced. Leave velocity alone, I would even leave the splash alone, cooldowns, etc. but the heat should get cut so you can sustain fire. i don;t want to see huge triple PPC alphas(or more) return, but CERPPC is so hot even a warhawk prime can't keep up with laserbarf. In fact it isn;t really even close, mostly because-

Range. Russ and crew have come out and said in the past they prefer a closer range gameplay, sniperwars aren;t what they want to see. And design has followed tat, where a long range weapon really has little advantage outside of a chance few circumstances, and the advantage is usually a fleeting one as enemy forces converge and engage in close combat with weapons that outstrip a CERPPC by a wide margin in efficiency. Now, that might seem like a logical counter, EXCEPT in order to compete with the amount of alpha dmg we are seeing by weapons with only somewhat shorter ranges, and far better sustainability, a CERPPC equipped mech is pretty much either going to be a mixed bag of ranges and generally be outdone by laser barf(our current problem) or restrict themselves into a sniper only role because anything closeing thegap will have a huge advantage in sustainable alpha ability.

THERE IS NO COMPETITION NOW WITH CERPPC's AND LASERS. LASERS WIN BY A MASSIVE MARGIN ON CLAN SIDE. So, given that most of the CERPPC stats should be left alone, heat is the available option to allow the CERPPC to compete with lasers. Return of PPC meta, and non-desireable side effect of having to deal with the ghost heat limits(related to ppc meta) are going to put a pretty tight window on how much heat can be reduced. SO:

We need other stuff for CERPPC to do besides just dmg. Nullify ECM is there, I would add some other stuff. People talk about making the hud fizzle. OK, but thats kinda minor IMO, there are people that play with the HUD off lol. Here are some other thoughts:
Add heat to target
Add interference counters to enemy target, after as counters build effects happen like loss of hud, loss of current target, maybe so far as jamming weapons
Temp. "blinding" of mechs in night/heat vision(screen goes too bright to see for x amount of time)
Increased chance for ammo explosions, or crits through armor maybe(leery of second one a bit)
reduced agility to affected enemy for a certain time
reduced heat dissipation for a certain time to enemy
global weapon cooldown debuff to enemy-some % reduction so enemy can't return fire as rapidly- heh, maybe on just lasers!

I would reduce heat, and add some or a mix of the above for a CERPPC. Leave the rest alone. IMO the actual weapon isn't that bad, it just isn't point and click laser alphas. I don;t want to see it turned into one either. I would rather leave it mostly alone in it's current dmg/velocity/range and add some bit of nastyness to it through side effects, and reduce heat cost so it can compete when the range of the fight moves in better, and allow it to increase it's sustainable DPS(note: no ghost heat change means no mega alphas)

[Mcgral18]

Lockon StratosII, on 18 December 2015 - 07:54 PM, said:

Because they are too hot to use right now. If you drop the heat and they can be used reliably in pairs = ppc ac combo on anything that can field it. If you on the other hand increase velocity = extreme range gauss synergy (with the help of macro, I know you have velocity quirks right now in game, but this would enable a wide spectrum of mechs to use that combo, not just a select few). If you do both, well we all remember how that went. The way I see it, its either drop the dmg + something to compensate for it or change the way how it deals dmg because right now its a 7 (6) ton ac10 that uses heat as ammo. But then again who knows what will they come up with

They synergize PERFECTLY (+/-50M/s) with AC5s now...how often do you see that loadout?

Edited by Mcgral18, 18 December 2015 - 09:06 PM.

[Zordicron]

With some fundamentals prefaced in my last post, I will move to IS PPC's

PPC: Not really all that bad, but it feels in the current game to be a mid range weapon- maybe even closer range then most of the AC's and for sure LRM's. It has what, 450M range? Something like that- anyway, then we restrict the first 90M to ZERO dmg. So now the effective range is cut farther. And the heat/dmg ratio is fair at best, with fair cooldowns meaning mediocre(being generous) DPS in a game where DPS is already going extinct. Still, given it's 300-400M range sweet spot, it can be pretty effective and more so when combined with a similar use type weapon like an AC10 or AC20 when the circumstances allow. And thats the kicker, point and click lasers are lighter, and simply more effective in almost every way in most current game state circumstances.

With clans now, I mean LOL at using a PPC to snipe. They barely outrange a 1 ton clan ERML, and certainly, an IS LL or even ERLL is far easier to use and cooler to boot, with no min range. Even a equal tonnage LPL is in the competition- the mildly shorter range is completely offset by the fact it has no min range, similar heat/dmg, and basically no duration making it superior in almost every circumstance(doesn;t synch as well with slow projectile AC's at max ranges due to leading a target- a minor setback)

With all that in mind, IMO, we don;t need ANY min range. It should just go away. A 7 ton weapon with mediocre stats in all regards certainly does not need any further restrictions in it's usage. At the least, it would allow it to compete directly with a LPL.
IF we remove min range, I am actually OK with leaving it with fairly slow velocity. PPC would then become the "short range" PPC, vs an ERPPC. If people know, at the outset, that it's 450M range is not going to allow it to trade with ER weapons etc, they can build accordingly. It turns the PPC into a hotter, no ammo energy hardpoint autocannon of sorts, which gives it great synergy and an actual role. IMO, this type of change actually opens more doors then it closes for tweaks and role-defining for the weapon. It would be in stark contrast to the ERPPC in function and use, which is pretty lacking right now.

I would also like to add some of the effects from my CERPPC post as secondary effects, however, IMO these changes would make the PPC pretty decent in it;s role, and so side effects wouldnt be as hefty in both number or effect compared to CERPPC, or:

ERPPC-
IS ERPPC. So hot, it makes me sweat thinking about it. So hot, it is basically 100% ineffective at brawl range, EVEN THOUGH THAT IS ONES OF IT'S SUPPOSED PERKS OVER THE PPC. It can not sustain, even within a country mile, the damage output of short range weapons. When it takes 7 tons(14 for a pair if you want it to actually contribute at longer ranges like it is supposed to vs a single goose) and DHS a plenty to operate the thing, sufficient "back up" weapons are basically a dream, meaning, much like the CERPPC, it is relegated to a specific range and role and does not have enough merits to overcome the laserbarf.

Reduce it's heat. Not far, but some, maybe by one. Give it velocity(a smidge, I like how quirked T-bolt functions with them IMO so far as using them at 1400M) and then, give it a slug of side effects. The ERPPC reallyt doesnt have any competition in IS except a goosewaffle outside of ERLL, and even then the ERLL has duration and range limitations despite it's heat advantage. What ERPPC needs, is a little better advantage at long range, and a bunch of stuff to mess up the enemy's ability to brawl gank you when they get close.

I don;t mean neuter an enemy, or make the ERPPC so nasty in can incapacitate a single enemy with chainfire, BUT, enough stuff to force the enemy to have to actually try to take the ERPPC mech down. Stuff like heat dissipation so ERPPC mech isn;t at quite such a rediculous disadvantage heat wise up close combined with causing the enemy to maybe drop target- which would remove the red square forcing an actual visual on the mech to hit, and also would cause support LRM fire for instance to lose lock. Give that ERPPC mech a fighting chance and not just a fish in a barrel, WITHOUT just giving it goosewaffle velocity and king of the hill dmg/heat/DPS numbers. You can;t just make an ERPPC into an effective long range weapon+brawl weapon(think original goose) but we can make it really good at long range, and "not a sitting duck at that can get one good shot off before it is destroyed" at close range by using creative application of "debuffs" to the advancing enemy.




So thats my take on all the PPC stuff. IMO, some need a little less heat, the ER ones need some debuffs to apply, and the IS PPC needs to be retro'd into a close(closer I guess, not a brawl weapon 100%, like a LL) weapon and lose all ambitions of it being a "sniper" weapon(including min range) so it can be better fit into a role to contrast the ERPPC.

[Bishop Steiner]

Huh..nothing to with balance....but wish I could get in synch like a few matches ago more often.... running my 2xERPPC HBK-IIC, start chasing a Locust that is juking allover HPG, and so I'm running 95, jumping all over the place... nailed him 6 for 6, last shot at 450 or so meters me jumping, him going around a corner. POOF.

Almost made me feel like I still had reflexes, for a minute, lol. Of course for me, that happens about once every oh...50 or so matches, so, yeah.

[Ohmlink]

As long as weapons are pin point accurate you will not be able to balance them the inherent issue with PPFLD weapons is if they hit they do a lot of damage to a single component the only way to balance boated weapons in general is to make them not hit the same component unless you are close/lucky/skilled.

Not that this hasn't probably been said before.

[Lockon StratosII]

Mcgral18, on 18 December 2015 - 08:23 PM, said:

They synergize PERFECTLY (+/-50M/s) with AC5s now...how often do you see that loadout?

Lockon StratosII said:

Because they are too hot to use right now...

[kapusta11]

Lockon StratosII, on 19 December 2015 - 02:52 AM, said:

Because they are too hot to use right now...

2x PPC + 2x AC5 runs cooler than laser vomit, had you actually played those builds you'd know that. You'd also know that XL engine is pretty much mandatory because of the sheer weight of this particular loadout.

Edited by kapusta11, 19 December 2015 - 03:11 AM.

[Yosharian]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 December 2015 - 11:49 AM, said:

So, as El Bandito pointed out, Russ is considering looking at MILD buffs to the PPC family to enhance use, and try to break the Laservomit Monopoly, but hopefully not replace it with a return to the PPC Meta.

So aside from better hit detection, what REALISTIC ideas do you have for making them more viable, but keeping in mind the razors edge they sit upon as potentially long range, PP-FLD weapons with no need of ammo?

And how to keep them somewhat distinctive?

Here are a few of my thoughts:

1) The Inner Sphere PPC:
-Raise Speed to 1400 m/s
-Bring back the scaling minimum range with one change: scales to a minimum of 5 damage.

-So: DMG 10, Heat 10, Velocity 1400 m/s, Range 90*-540/1080
*see minimum range scaling

2) The Inners Sphere ER-PPC
-Reduce Heat by 1 pt.
-Increase Projectile Velocity to 1500 m/s

-So: DMG 10, Heat 14, Velocity 1500 m/s, Range 810/1620


3) The Clan ER-PPC
-Reduce Heat by 1 pt
-Remove splash damage, increase base projectile damage to 12.5 or 13 dmg
-Leave velocity the same, or mild boost. Possibly shorter range? Hits harder, weighs less, 1 crit smaller, needs a trade off

-So: DMG 12.5/13, Heat 14, Velocity 1200-1300 m/s, Range 750/1500*
*(or 810/1620 if that is too much a trade off, but without the extra projectile speed, of limited use at extreme ranges anyhow)


these ideas are based off of a discussion I am having with Pariah Devalis, to improve the PPCs without (hopefully) overpowering them, but to give each some distinctive characteristics. Basically, the IS PPC is coolest, the IS ER-PPC the best long range, and the C-ER-PPC hit the hardest. Considering Clan Mythos and fighting style being a little more down and dirty seemed to fit, plus Clans often complain they are at a brawling disadvantage, this gives a PP-FLD alternative to the C-LPL.

***No claims the ideas are "perfect as presented", numbers may need to be tweaked, other ideas explored (hence my asking you, the forums) and for a certainty, Quirks re-assessed. But the less reliant a weapon is on quirks to be viable, the better, IMO.

Thoughts?

I'll say the same thing I said months ago (19th September to be exact):

Quote

Particle Projection Cannons
PPCs at the moment are in a better spot than they used to be, but still need work. For starters, heat values across the board must be reduced. These weapons are far too hot and currently only work on certain mechs which have heavy energy/PPC generation quirks and velocity quirks. These crutches must be removed and the weapon made viable across all mechs. Currently these weapons are absurdly bad compared to Large Pulse Lasers in almost all situations, especially on Clan mechs.

- Heat reductions: IS PPC 9 (down from 10), IS ERPPC 13.75 (down from 15), C ERPPC 13.75 (down from 15)
- Velocity buffed to 30% of current values: IS PPC 1430, IS ERPPC 1560, C ERPPC 1560

Minimum damage scaling to 5 might be too strong. I'd say scaling from max damage at 90m gradually down to 3-4 damage at point-blank range might be ok.

kapusta11, on 19 December 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

2x PPC + 2x AC5 runs cooler than laser vomit, had you actually played those builds you'd know that. You'd also know that XL engine is pretty much mandatory because of the sheer weight of this particular loadout.

I play that build and while it is cooler than laser vomit it also gets ****** in the *** hard under 90m. It's also far, far more challenging to play than your standard laser vomit.

Also, PPCs should be usable across the board, not just on specific mechs that have energy/PPC heat gen quirks up the wazoo.

PPCs are too hot, fact.

Edited by Yosharian, 19 December 2015 - 03:23 AM.

[Lockon StratosII]

kapusta11, on 19 December 2015 - 03:08 AM, said:

2x PPC + 2x AC5 runs cooler than laser vomit, had you actually played those builds you'd know that. You'd also know that XL engine is pretty much mandatory because of the sheer weight of this particular loadout.

and laser vomit deals way more dmg for the fraction of weight (assuming perfect conditions), but I don't see the point in comparing lasers with acs or ppcs simply because of the nature they deal dmg. One is PPFLD other is PPDoT. Apples and oranges.

[kapusta11]

Lockon StratosII, on 19 December 2015 - 03:27 AM, said:

and laser vomit deals way more dmg for the fraction of weight (assuming perfect conditions), but I don't see the point in comparing lasers with acs or ppcs simply because of the nature they deal dmg. One is PPFLD other is PPDoT. Apples and oranges.

Well so far it's easier to kill enemy robits with oranges and not the apples, that's the point of comparison.

[Lockon StratosII]

kapusta11, on 19 December 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:

Well so far it's easier to kill enemy robits with oranges and not the apples, that's the point of comparison.

And if apples get buffed without reducing dmg, oranges are gonna rot away on the shelf and you get reversed situation from what we have now