227 replies to this topic

[cSand]

Ah so some guys want mwo with respawn COD styles

here you go:

https://www.playhawken.com/

perfectly good game, with robots, and respawn.

Edited by cSand, 22 December 2015 - 01:32 PM.

[WarHippy]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 December 2015 - 01:03 PM, said:

needs of the wants of the many outweigh the wants of the few?

I will care about the needs of the many when that many group stops complaining about the MM putting them into games with scrubs that didn't even do 200dmg(mostly because those "scrubs" were left behind to die by the many resulting in a bad game).

[Mystere]

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 11:33 AM, said:

Nah! I did say sport, like this:

[Jman5]

WarHippy, on 22 December 2015 - 01:02 PM, said:

The underlined goes both ways. You can't reasonably expect everyone to have a mech as fast as the one you chose, or have the same game plan as you for that matter. Both sides of this argument need to pay closer attention to what the others are doing and adjust as needed. Running off and leaving an entire lance to die is not being an effective member of the team, nor is hand waving it off with an assertion they should have played a different mech to fit your play style.

If I run off ahead and get myself isolated thats on me. I do this occasionally, and I don't scream at my lights, mediums, and heavies for not being able to keep up with an 80 kph mech. I blame myself for being careless. If I derp around in the back and get isolated, that's on me.

What gets me about these discussions is that the players complaining always pretend like it's physically impossible to stay with the group despite the fact that plenty of direwolf players keep up just fine every game. If players really truly wanted to be able to learn to play solo queue without consistently getting caught behind, I could probably list 20 different ways with map and spawn specific instructions. However it's become clear over the years that what these people truly want is for the 11 other teammates to follow them around like lackeys wherever and whenever they decide to go. And when they die, they want scapegoats to take the fall.

I just want to say that I suffer from the flipside of this coin. Nearly every single match, I watch my faster allies completely blow the early game by dawdling, standing around, or running in zigzags around the map waiting for someone to do something. We could probably catch some people on the other team off guard if they had moved with a purpose. However, they don't, so I have to hold back and let the opportunity for an easier win slip by. This is hugely frustrating on my part, but it's something I have to adjust to in the solo queue so I do. I don't just suicide charge the enemy because 2/3 of the team should be here by now.

What I'm trying to say is that I'm not getting my way either. However instead of demanding everyone play my way, I stay flexible. I try to learn to adapt and not be a burden to my team in the unpredictable solo queue.

Edited by Jman5, 22 December 2015 - 01:51 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

In a ticket system like you described you still have bad players eating up resources at an alarming rate, you still have the potential for TKers, and deathballing/nascaring are still very much going to be a thing.

And thats worse than a bad player suiciding in a one-life gamemode, how? In truth its not nearly as bad because of RESPAWNS.

A player dying in a one-life gamemode immediately removes 1/12th of your teams resources.

A player dying in a ticket-based gamemode would have to die like 6+ times before removing 1/12th of the teams tickets (assuming theyre piloting a dire wolf and teams get about 8000 tickets).

A single player is far less able to ruin a game when you have respawns.

Quote

Overwhelming with numbers is always going to be the most common tactic used as it is the easiest to do with minimal communication, and is only compounded by a respawn system. The games will still play out the same way over and over respawn or not.

How is it compounded by a respawn system? Its compounded by a one-life system because people are PETRIFIED OF DYING. So they deathball to preserve their own survival.

A respawn system removes the fear of permadeath. You no longer have to deathball in order to perserve your own life. Players can play how they want operate as groups or even independently to help their team win. You have immensely more freedom.

Quote

It breaks immersion, it lacks depth in tactics, and it creates mindless game play. All of those are things I have already listed as to why I don't like it beyond "its bad". Go reread my posts.

How does it break immersion? Its called reinforcements. Your team is losing so HQ sends in more mechs to reinforce. That happens in battletech lore all the time... with fresh mechs being hotdropped on the battlefield. If anything it adds to immersion by making you seem like part of a bigger operation.

One-life gamemodes create mindless gameplay. What do you think causes deathballing? Its caused by players being afraid of dying and grouping up to maximize survival. The current gamemodes have stagnated into a repetitive boring cycling of deathballing at predetermined locations on each map. It does not get anymore mindless than that.

If anything it makes the game MORE strategic because you have more freedom over how to play the game. You arnt forced to deathball in the same spot every game. You can take risks and try different things.

Quote

As I have said repeatedly we already have that... CW is your respawn mode.

Except CW is not a true respawn mode since you still have limited lives. Therefore CW is still subject to many of the same flaws as a one-life gamemode. For example if a player disconnects/afks/etc... youve just lost 1/12th of your team's resources.

CW is also still mostly won through attrition and running the enemy team out of lives. Therefore its still basically an extension of skirmish. The whole point of an actual respawn gamemode with ticket based respawn is to GET AWAY FROM SKIRMISH and make other objectives besides killing the enemy team matter.

Edited by Khobai, 22 December 2015 - 02:00 PM.

[WarHippy]

Cathy, on 22 December 2015 - 01:17 PM, said:

They ran 50 meters in 8 seconds

100 meters in 16 seconds is still better than a lot of people could run it, that are mocking the sumo wrestlers

I'm not mocking anyone. Just thought it was apropos to his comment.

[cSand]

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

Ah so some guys want mwo with respawn COD styles

here you go:

https://www.playhawken.com/

perfectly good game, with robots, and respawn.

on that note

having the CW style 4 mech lineup in solo/group queue matches, or the option of such, would be good I think

but then, way not just play CW.
Quick play is just that, you can have a few matches when you have time

Edited by cSand, 22 December 2015 - 01:49 PM.

[Mystere]

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

Ah so some guys want mwo with respawn COD styles

here you go:

https://www.playhawken.com/

perfectly good game, with robots, and respawn.

Actually, I think it's the people who do not care one tiny bit about lore beyond skins who need to play that game. All they want is a generic robot shooter anyway.

Edited by Mystere, 22 December 2015 - 01:53 PM.

[cSand]

Mystere, on 22 December 2015 - 01:52 PM, said:

Actually, I think it's the people who do not care one tiny bit about lore beyond skins who need to play that game. All they want is a generic robot shooter anyway.

in lore did the pilots magically teleport back to their spawn point in a brand new shiny mech when they died?

Edited by cSand, 22 December 2015 - 01:56 PM.

[WarHippy]

Khobai, on 22 December 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

And thats different from a bad player suiciding in a one-life gamemode, how? If anything its not as bad because RESPAWNS.

A player dying in a mech in a one-life gamemode immediately removes 1/12th of your teams resources.

A player dying in a ticket-based gamemode would have to die like 6+ times before removing 1/12th of the teams tickets (assuming theyre piloting a dire wolf and teams get about 8000 tickets).

You said that it fixed the problem of suicide which it does not. Someone running in and getting killed again and again and again is going to eat up tickets, as is all the other people getting killed in situations that they would have been more cautious in a single life mode because hey they can just respawn.

Khobai, on 22 December 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

How is it compounded by a respawn system? Its compounded by a one-life system because people are PETRIFIED OF DYING. So they deathball to preserve their own survival.

Like I said grouping up is the easiest and most effective tactic to use with minimal communication. The death ball is going to happen regardless of respawns or not. Yet again respawns do not fix this "problem". As for it being compounded it is because attacking an enemy base for example is going do be hard given they are respawning during the fight, and the only way to overcome that effectively is by being grouped up hence death ball wave after death ball wave. The problems you have with the current system are still going to be there only with respawns you will be stuck in there longer.

Khobai, on 22 December 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

A respawn system removes the fear of permadeath. You no longer have to deathball in order to perserve your own life. Players can play how they want operate as groups or even independently to help their team win. You have immensely more freedom.

This is Rambo mentality at its finest. No fear of death because it doesn't matter, and no real team strategy because everyone is free to play however they want and roam mindlessly. You speak as if preserving your life and having patience is a bad thing.
That also ignores the fact that you don't have to death ball in a single life game mode either, and is something I do fairly regularly with various levels of success.

[Mystere]

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

in lore did the pilots magically teleport back to their spawn point in a brand new shiny mech when they died?

This is where the concept of "abstraction" becomes important. It's not really the same pilot. It's a different one coming in as reinforcement. And because there is really no actual battle, only a combat "simulator", the concept is even more important.

Edited by Mystere, 22 December 2015 - 02:02 PM.

[cSand]

Mystere, on 22 December 2015 - 02:01 PM, said:

This is where the concept of "abstraction" becomes important. It's not really the same pilot. It's a different one coming in as reinforcement. And because there is really no actual battle, only a combat "simulator", the concept is even more important.

Ah ok I think I'm getting it here, let me give it a try:

So applying the rules of abstraction you laid out for me, since it's not a real battle, we can say it's a simulator where weapon techs have been balanced through their programmed values? So we can have equal #'s of mechs on both sides? So 12 v 12 is a-ok? Did I get that right?



btw I am enjoying this exchange my friend

Edited by cSand, 22 December 2015 - 02:06 PM.

[Morggo]

Khobai, on 22 December 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

How is it compounded by a respawn system? Its compounded by a one-life system because people are PETRIFIED OF DYING. So they deathball to preserve their own survival.

A respawn system removes the fear of permadeath. You no longer have to deathball in order to perserve your own life. Players can play how they want operate as groups or even independently to help their team win. You have immensely more freedom.

You answer your own question. To me, and several others in here it's a very simple equation. However, there are clearly two very clear camps here and we're unlikely to sway the others as it's a very passionate ideal.

However, my point is... removing the fear of perma-death will... based on experience in PUGlandia... simply encourage people to do exactly what you are pointing out. Less teamwork (if you can have less). Less caution. Less tactical positioning. Less... well, we'll clearly never agree.

All I can envision is more: "YEEAAHHAAWWW! Nascar ya'll!!!..." {insert stupid hey ya'll watch THIS! tactic here} "Well darn it all, I'm dead. *poof* Yeah! Alive again... YYEEAAHHAAWWW!.... " rinse and repeat for the next 10 minutes...????

No thank you. The two sides have very different desires out of the game. I like the challenge of managing my resources (armour and ammo and mech) to attempt to achieve a win. It's what a lot of us like for the more 'immersive' experience. Nothing wrong with that. I just feel the respawn path, personally, is too 'arcadey' for me. But others like a respawn mode, again nothing wrong with it if it's your bag. It has it's advantages and neat parts. Just add that feature and the two sides can go do what each likes. Problem solved. No relegating the current (now mainstream) game "to the training grounds or solaris like" area. That's not win-win, that's basically saying respawn is THE game, and anything else isn't worthy.

[Mystere]

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

Ah ok I think I'm getting it here, let me give it a try:

So applying the rules of abstraction you laid out for me, since it's not a real battle, it's a simulator where weapon techs have been balanced through their programmed values? So we can have equal #'s of mechs on both sides? So 12 v 12 is a-ok? Did I get that right?

But that's a very terrible "combat simulator" for something built to represent the Clan Invasion in Battletech!

cSand, on 22 December 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

btw I am enjoying this exchange my friend

I think we're both enjoying this a little bit too much.


But unfortunately, I have to cut it short. I now have to leave and pick up a whole lot of gifts, including yummy food prepared especially just for us.

[cSand]

Mystere, on 22 December 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

But that's a very terrible "combat simulator" for something built to represent the Clan Invasion in Battletech!




I think we're both enjoying this a little bit too much.


But unfortunately, I have to cut it short. I now have to leave and pick up a whole lot of gifts, including yummy food prepared especially just for us.

Oh boy, GL to you, the real battle begins eh

Enjoy the rest of your day!

O7

[WarHippy]

Khobai, on 22 December 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

How does it break immersion? Its called reinforcements. Your team is losing so HQ sends in more mechs to reinforce. That happens in battletech lore all the time... with fresh mechs being hotdropped on the battlefield.

I don't recall pilots being teleported back into a brand new mech and appearing on the battlefield 30 seconds later as if nothing happened. If you can't see how that breaks immersion I don't know what to tell you, but .

Khobai, on 22 December 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

One-life gamemodes create mindless gameplay. What do you think causes deathballing? Its caused by players being afraid of dying and grouping up to maximize survival. The current gamemodes have stagnated into a repetitive boring cycling of deathballing at predetermined locations on each map. It does not get anymore mindless than that.

I have explained death balling already. It doesn't matter if it is one-life or unlimited respawn it is still going to happen.

Khobai, on 22 December 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

If anything it makes the game MORE strategic because you have more freedom over how to play the game. You arnt forced to deathball in the same spot every game. You can take risks and try different things.

Yeah, instead of death balling from the same spot on our next life we can death ball in a different spot. Yup, can't believe I never thought of that so much more depth.

Khobai, on 22 December 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

Except CW is not a true respawn mode since you still have limited lives. Therefore CW is still subject to many of the same flaws as a one-life gamemode. For example if a player disconnects/afks/etc... youve just lost 1/12th of your team's resources.

A ticket system has limited lives as well only instead of having 4 for each person some of those suicide players and bad players you dislike will eat up a lot more leaving the people actually trying to play and win with less. The only place respawn is marginally better is if someone disconnects, but everything else is the same or worse than a one-life mode.

Khobai, on 22 December 2015 - 01:37 PM, said:

CW is also still mostly won through attrition and running the enemy team out of lives. Therefore its still basically an extension of skirmish. The whole point of an actual respawn gamemode with ticket based respawn is to GET AWAY FROM SKIRMISH and make other objectives besides killing the enemy team matter.

CW still requires you to destroy the power generators even if you already killed all of the enemy mechs. Sorry, but CW is exactly what you were asking for with four lives each instead of a larger number of worthless lives in a ticket system.

[C E Dwyer]

People that complain about being left behind are probably there because they tried hard not to be the one at the front..

[Roadkill]

Morggo, on 22 December 2015 - 02:07 PM, said:

All I can envision is more: "YEEAAHHAAWWW! Nascar ya'll!!!..." {insert stupid hey ya'll watch THIS! tactic here} "Well darn it all, I'm dead. *poof* Yeah! Alive again... YYEEAAHHAAWWW!...." rinse and repeat for the next 10 minutes...????

Bad example, because what tends to happen in respawn games is that a battle line forms and most of the fighting occurs there. NASCAR doesn't work at all in a respawn game because the respawn points don't move as the battle (in theory) rotates.

The battle lines do move about, and there can be a lot of flanking, skirmishing, brawling, and sneak attacks as well. But I don't recall ever seeing anything like NASCAR in a MW game before MWO.

[cSand]

Hey if there was respawns it would make it more Nascar like at least

you could have like, 200 lap games around Caustic

[Vermaxx]

Assault mechs are slow. If they're not slow, they're either carrying an XL engine (vulnerable, not an assault mech); or they wasted a lot of weapon tonnage on engine size.

I'm not going to tell you how to build a good mech, because almost any build can put up huge numbers by the right pilot in the right match with all the right things happening at the right time. Hell, I can put up huge numbers every few months.

Telling an assault mech player they're too slow for the game is stupid. If you're outrunning your heavy hitter and you're not setting up a flank, you just outran your heavy hitter. Just like when you 'take command' and issue orders, then complain when you die alone and no one followed you.

If you're not with the herd, or you're abandoning your support elements, you screwed up. Not the other guy.