447 replies to this topic

[Kieva]

So, let me first set the scene for this post. Tonight I dropped 3 matches in CW. Tonight we got roflstomped 3 times with a 12-man, by a mixed bag of FRR. We were (mostly) organized, focusing fire, and we were mostly getting crushed.

This game is NOT balanced for CW right now, and you Inny surrats need to stop crying about IS being underpowered, because the reality is that the Clans are now so badly nerfed and out-tonned, and so full of poorly trained pugs, that if you'll notice, every single clan faction is being pushed back to their home planet.

I don't care what is changed, but some of the debuffing of the clans needs to be backed off. This change needs to happen VERY soon, because it has lost all of its fun for those of us that are playing on Clan side.

I'm pretty frustrated right now, so I'm having a hard time giving rationalized points to why this is, but this game should be fun, not frustrating, simple point, to explain a simple thing.

With these 12 mans, I haven't won a single match since the 'balance' adjustment.

Edited by Kieva, 27 December 2015 - 08:15 PM.

[Leggin Ho]

THe Total Tonnage just needs to be dropped back under 250 for both sides and that would go a long way to making it a better time, that and a few structure quirks toned down on mechs like the Black Jacks.

[Kieva]

Leggin Ho, on 27 December 2015 - 08:26 PM, said:

THe Total Tonnage just needs to be dropped back under 250 for both sides and that would go a long way to making it a better time, that and a few structure quirks toned down on mechs like the Black Jacks.

It's really a combination of everything. It's no one thing, it's everything that happened at once. The tonnage, the comp units, the influx of newbies from steam, and the further nerfing of the clans. It's frustrating, because PGI surely saw this coming.

[WANTED]

I understand your frustration being IS solely in CW for years now and part of me is happy that I don't see clan groups saying " better teamwork wins all " , "train your pugs better" , etc, etc. I went into every CW game with a loss inevitable for years now and I think you have had 2 weeks of this? Anyways I am sure the game will be balanced yet again and clans will see a slight edge if it all works out

[Alaric Hasek]

It's not that Clan 'mechs were nerfed that much, though long burn times are a pain. What makes IS 'mechs better at the moment is the -10% or -15% heat gen, 10 to 15% range bonus, and the massive internal bonuses for IS 'mechs. That makes the Black Knight, Blackjack, Marauder, and some other IS 'mechs able to brawl better than the Clanners... AND some IS 'mechs get range quirks too - so they outrange the IS. There are Quickdraws, Battlemasters, Blackjacks, Cicadas (and probably others) that have +25% energy range. With a range mod they can get effective ERLLs out to 1000m.

CW is more difficult for Clans because of the above issues, and the 265 ton IS drop deck lets me bring things like a 3LL/3 ML Black Knight, a 4 LL/1 ERLL Marauder, a 3LL/2 ML Enforcer, and a 4 ERLL Quickdraw with 5 tons to spare. 265 tons could also be 3 Black Knights and a Cicada, or 4 Thunderwubs straight off Metamechs. Worse for the Clans is that a number of units that had gone Clan, especially in Tuk 2 went IS. That's part of why the Clans can't get out of their zones. You can look at the map and see where those units are with currently.

So, do Clans need buffs? Probably not, but if you want more balance there need to be less weapon perks for the IS.

[Kieva]

Alaric Hasek, on 27 December 2015 - 08:59 PM, said:

It's not that Clan 'mechs were nerfed that much, though long burn times are a pain. What makes IS 'mechs better at the moment is the -10% or -15% heat gen, 10 to 15% range bonus, and the massive internal bonuses for IS 'mechs. That makes the Black Knight, Blackjack, Marauder, and some other IS 'mechs able to brawl better than the Clanners... AND some IS 'mechs get range quirks too - so they outrange the IS. There are Quickdraws, Battlemasters, Blackjacks, Cicadas (and probably others) that have +25% energy range. With a range mod they can get effective ERLLs out to 1000m.

CW is more difficult for Clans because of the above issues, and the 265 ton IS drop deck lets me bring things like a 3LL/3 ML Black Knight, a 4 LL/1 ERLL Marauder, a 3LL/2 ML Enforcer, and a 4 ERLL Quickdraw with 5 tons to spare. 265 tons could also be 3 Black Knights and a Cicada, or 4 Thunderwubs straight off Metamechs. Worse for the Clans is that a number of units that had gone Clan, especially in Tuk 2 went IS. That's part of why the Clans can't get out of their zones. You can look at the map and see where those units are with currently.

So, do Clans need buffs? Probably not, but if you want more balance there need to be less weapon perks for the IS.

I'm honestly glad this thread hasn't turned in to bitter argument about the two sides yet, and really, your post sums up my frustration. I don't mind the weapon quirks, the structure quirks are a little over the top, though.

[Half Ear]

Kieva, on 27 December 2015 - 08:31 PM, said:

It's really a combination of everything. It's no one thing, it's everything that happened at once. The tonnage, the comp units, the influx of newbies from steam, and the further nerfing of the clans. It's frustrating, because PGI surely saw this coming.

It really is the weight increase. The energy range/cooldown/duration/heat gen overall quirks was a combined reduction and with the balance moved towards the general instead of specific weapons. On the plus side were additional or increased structural quirks. So heavier, tankier mechs with a slight decrease in weapon quirks.

Essentially the IS has enough variety of heavier laser vomit mechs where the hardpoint placement does not such while Clans do not.

Clans can use different base variants but equip same omni-pods
Cheetah, Hellbringer, Timberwolf and Jaguar and Stormcrow

2-Twolves, Hellbringer, Cheetah (5tons spare)
T-wolf, Jaguar, Hellbringer, Cheetah (15 tons spare, or 5 tons spare on 240-ton limit).
Warhawk, Jaguar, Hellbringer, Cheetah (5tons spare).


IS generally use different variants with different setups, many do not and would not purchase identical variants. Most will be running STD engine, so slower to respond to counter enemy movement.
265-ton limit
Battlemaster/Stalker (or 2 of one), T-bolt and Locust
Battlemaster/Stalker, 2 T-bolts, Blackjack
4 T-bolts

prior 250-ton limit
1 Battlemaster/Stalker, 2 T-bolt, firestarter
3 Tbolts, Blackjack
2-Tbolts, 2-Blackjack

And remember, the weight increase came in after Steam Launch, as Steamers were heading for CW like it was the main attraction, but with trial mechs the 250-ton limit severely hampered them. The 265-ton (hopefully it is temp) increase allowed them to bring Atlas/KC, T-bolt, Enforcer and Hunch.

On the team aspect, the FRR readily uses its TS and even if they are in separate units or lone wolves, they tend to be more aggressive then the other factions, with the exception of Kurita. And allowing the IS to play to their strengths by getting close is asking for it, especially when Clans are primarily setup for range encounters. It is a difficult prospect to balance out.

Edited by Half Ear, 27 December 2015 - 11:22 PM.

[Russhuster]

it is a cobination of overquirking the one side and Nerfbat
while the Structure quirks let some is mediums tank like an Atlas the clan mechs are shot down easyly with ER ranges on IS side of 1600 - 1800 m
In addition the heatnerf of the Clan double Heatsink Capacity down to Inner sphere single heat sink capacity culmulates with the more heat gnerating Clan weapons what have a hardcoded Heat penalty ( what was OK so far but with the Nerf of heat sinks its just down the hill)
In addition there s the tremendous Ghost heat penalty on Clan side, whilst an IS Quirkbucket can boat 5 ER heavy lasers and cough out alphs at will. If you try such stunt with a clan mech you would be surprised

So a Clan player has to put more damage out to destroy an IS opponent whilst the Nerfs are denieing this massively

On top of this the agility Nerf via skilltree hits the clan chassis hard whilst IS mechs get theyr share of agility quirks by + 55, +65 or up to +70 % plus turn rate quirks about 35% turning quirks etc...

The Clan gets the -20% agilityNerf in the face and nothing to relative that

Considering these nerfs were not considerate nor weaker clan chassis got any compensation it just amplifyed the pictire that the Nerfing without thinking on All clan chassis widens the gap betwen still playable mechs like ACH TBR SCR stc and the vast rest
while these few chassis may cope with the additional ners other Clan Chassis are simply dead and buried

So the choice of what mechs to lead into the Dropdeck is abit thinnish by now

As A result you do obviously see just three or fourvalid mech types on clan side the rest isnerfed down that much its not wise to use such in CW
And then one hears day after day Therse Mechs are so OP you only see clans playing these - so these need more Nerf
and the next shotgun Nerf on all and everything with clan on iit is rolling

There never was the Question WHY is that so nor there was a preceptible differentiation in making judgements most times the Clan as a whole was nerfed

That tunnel sighted behaviour over the last years is more frustrating than losing a match geting stomped

It is True Balance is needed BUT PGI uses the most destructive way to play its try and mostly Error on us

when one side of the Team gets piled with quirk over quirk and the bonus on top constantly
whilst the other half of the team gets the Nerf-kick in the Face again and again /~period
What will happen?

Please make an educated guess why more and more Clan PLayers are changing sides or leaving the game completely

Edited by Russhuster, 27 December 2015 - 11:30 PM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

I have the solution, every single clanner should turn to the IS side, that way, all the IS units would have no more CW against the clans, they would have to fight eachother.
PGI would see that something is very wrong, and would balanced once and for all!!! Or take clans out of the game until a true balance is achieved.

[Leartes]

I'm a pugger and before steam release we were losing 2/3 of the matches but mostly due to bad coordination. I think I won about 50% of the games where we had a good drop leader.

Then after steam launch cw was unplayable. I had lots of matches with 6 players with only trials on my side while the clanners had none of the new guys. Obviously I lost most of these matches. I was in top 3-4 with only 600 damage ... very sad days.

Post christmas I'm playing cw again and I have yet to lose a match, BUT this is this the first time that I drop with 4+ players from 228 or other strong units. I recognize many of them because so far I was always on the receiving end.


I have no clue how you guys come to your balance conclusions when apparently it mostly depends on the strong units.

EDIT: Before anyone points it out, I know 228 was not clan. But it is not about one unit, it is about the bulk of decent units switching sides.

Edited by Leartes, 29 December 2015 - 04:46 AM.

[Michal R]

CW has only one problem... bad players.
You can win with every one but you need playes that shoot to enemy not hide, even if you play random drop you can win.

https://docs.google....d.g263f6502b_00

Read this, learn to play, join unit and it will be ok.

[ShinVector]

An End of Battle screenshot of said matches by OP might reveal surprising facts.

Edited by ShinVector, 29 December 2015 - 07:07 AM.

[100mile]

Look, the biggest problems for the Clans right now:
1) All the major "Merc" units left Clan space in an attempt to skew the info coming from CW game play because they don't like problem 3...
2) the tonnage for IS side needs to be dropped back a little bit, maybe give IS 5 tons more which still equals 60 extra tons or one whole Heavy mech. 15 tons is just too much...it's like giving us 3 extra heavy mechs per fight...
3) "Easy win Button" was removed.

Biggest advantages for Clan mechs..
1) still have to do twice as much damage on each clan mech to kill it than you do on each IS mech when comparing Assaults to Assaults, Heavies to heavies, mediums to mediums, lights to lights...
2) Overall range when used properly and comparing weight classes to each other again, giving ability to do more damage from distance when done properly.
3) Mechs are still faster overall (Except lights) and thus are able to maneuver better and respond to tactics easier and quicker.

Solution to balance: Merc units move back into Clan territory and IS tonnage gets dropped back a bit.

[Appogee]

Persist for another year under the present conditions and then you will know what it's been like on the IS side til now.

[MechWarrior Black Knight]

if clans are so ***** bad why 80% my pug game against pug clans in CW is a loss? no joke i lm losing like 80% of time , is pugs just dont push they stay out of range and die, end of story.

Edited by MechWarriorBK, 29 December 2015 - 09:35 AM.

[Jack Spade Ward]

MechWarriorBK, on 29 December 2015 - 09:35 AM, said:

if clans are so ***** bad why 80% my pug game against pug clans in CW is a loss? no joke i lm losing like 80% of time , is pugs just dont push they stay out of range and die, end of story.

Because the stygma of "clan mechs are better"!!!
If most IS players would finally recognize that they have the best equipment, win rate would be very close to 100%

[Hexenhammer]

IS is afraid of scratching their pretty paint jobs. The damn things are expensive after all.

[Rattazustra]

#1 Tonnage: This is a problem, but not the way some people think it is. Tonnage does not need to go up for one side or down for another. Tonnage is not a viable balancing tool, because it acts as a multiplier for other problems that are unsolved. Tonnage needs to be equal for both sides and it needs to STAY THAT WAY for a LONG time. Changing tonnage up and down is at best naive. It is a harebrained idea to switch it up and down like PGI is doing it nowadays, because any changes to tonnage have HUGE consequences for the average player. Give most players 5 more tons and there is nothing they can do to utilize it. They'd need to change almost their entire drop deck and I don't think the majority of players own the mechs to do that. We are talking about weeks of grinding and skilling here for a deck of 2-3 new mastered and moduled new mechs. Ridiculous. Most of the ace players can do that, but that is not the structural majority of CW. Also because for any balancing to stand on solid ground there needs to be a common denominator, tonnage HAD to be equal.

#2 Quirks: The concept of quirks itself is fine and never was a problem by itself. The naive way PGI is handling them however is. The balancing actually made it WORSE in many cases. 10% energy range and 10% medium pulse laser range is absofrickinlutely not even remotely the same as 20% energy range. A child with only basic knowledge of math would know that. There are mechs with such ridiculous quirks. What do they think people will load into a TOP DOG Thunderbolt? Small lasers? Of course not. The mech with the insane range bonus will of course be used to carry ER Large Lasers. And will they be range moduled? Hell, of course they will. Boom, one-thousand klicks base range. Unbeatable by anything the clans have. This is the type of gun that is, with a little teamwork, actually capable of locking an attacker out of Boreal without any real chance of even opening the frickin gate without losses.
No, quirks in general are not the problem. Extreme quirks are. No mech whatsoever should have quirks greater than 10% for anything. No matter what. If you think a quirk greater than that was needed, the problem is not the lack of such a quirk but the non-viability of the item in question without it. If the Hunchback 4J needs a combined 35% cooldown quirk for its LRM10s, then cutting that down to a healthy 10% does not ruin the 4J. It just highlights how broken and ineffective the LRM10s are without the quirk. The larger quirks actually make it impossible to ever balance the game at all. No changes can ever be made within such a system that don't have immediate and wide ranging consequences.

#3 Process: When you are balancing something you need to make small, controlled and limited steps. Then you need to take the time and evaluate the results. You simply cannot increase the tankability of one side, reduce the weapons range of the other side, mix up mech specific improvements and on top of it change the drop deck tonnage all in one huge pass. The result is chaos. It has to be. Everything else would be highly unlikely. I mean the whole balance testing process was laughable. Hardly anyone of value was ever on that test server for prolonged playtime. There were no useful results whatsoever! Some mechs don't even have ANY relevant feedback at all! Why? Because there was absolutely no real mass incentive to do a lot of testing.

But PGI messed it up and now we see the total crash of CW content. Game balance was almost better BEFORE the whole balancing patch than it has been ever since, which is actually kinda sad.

If you really want to balance the game, balance it around the needs of the competitive players. Once it is balanced for them, it is balanced for everyone. Even for those who believe it not to be. Please the dogs and the sheep will follow. It is the way the big players like Blizzard work and few people would say that Starcraft is badly balanced. You cannot please everyone, but you'd need to be terribly naive for even trying.

[Leggin Ho]

PGI always throws huge quirks to the IS side and 2-5% of quirks to the clans if they get positive quirks at all, the neg quirks need to be removed with all the structure and range quirks the IS has now and the duration should be looked at as well as it's still too long on certain weapons the clans have available.

[lbxpryde]

sure,balance the tonnage exactly equal,then balance the weapon damage exactly equal.clan ermediums need to do 5 dmg. erlrgs need to do 7. lrg pulse 11 etc...when clans do the same dmg per weapon you get to complain about balance untill then drive your 100 ton 13 medium laser 2 gauss dire whale and quit saying IS is overpowered.