949 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

MauttyKoray, on 03 January 2016 - 04:07 PM, said:

well excuse me *******, please tell me your grand idea, at least I'm suggesting ****?

I stated before that the reward for the objective should be raised and for kills to be lowered, but no one even batted a ******* eye at that and gave it a response.

So please, tell me, what master plan can you concoct that would solve CWs problems?

Dynamic campaigns.
4 'mech drop deck (as currently exists)
4 stages of the campaign:
Stage 1 (could use current QP maps similar to skirmish mode) Retreat can be an option by moving off of the map.
If "Attacking" team wins, then Stage 2 (A)
If "Defending" team wins, then Stage 2 (D)

Stage 2 (A) Attackers have secured a "base", Defenders team must assault and capture the base. (Similar to current counterattack mode) Attackers win = go to 3(AA), Defenders win go to 3(AD)
Stage 2 (D) Attackers must assault a fortified "base" (Similar to current CW attack mode) Attackers win go to 3(DA), Defenders win, go to 3 (DD)

Stage 3 (AA) Attackers have defended their base, and allowed for defenses to be built. Defenders must capture the fortified base. If Attackers win go to 4(AAA), if defenders win go to 4(AAD)
Stage 3 (DD) Defenders have defended their base. Attackers must retreat to a dust-off point, Defenders must stop as many fleeing units as possible. Only the retreating team knows the dust-off coordinates. Victory Defenders.
Stage 3 (AD) Defenders have captured the forward base, Attackers must counter-attack the base.
Stage 3 (DA) Attackers have captured the base, Defenders must counter attack the base.

Stage 4 (AAA) Defenders must retreat to a designated point off map, Attackers must stop as many enemy units as possible. Only the retreating team knows the designated point. Victory Attackers
Stage 4 (AAD) Attackers must counter attack the defenders' (unfortified) base. If successful, attacking team wins. If unsuccessful, the defending team wins.
Stage 4 (ADA) Defenders counter attack. Winner gets Victory
Stage 4 (ADD) Attackers must retreat to dust-off point, Defenders hunt. Victory Defenders
Stage 4 (DAA) Defenders must retreat off map, Attackers hunt. Victory Attackers
Stage 4 (DAD) Attackers counter attack. Winner gets Victory.

Each stage could be 10 minutes, no respawns. Pilots can choose a new 'mech from their dropdeck each stage.

[Deathlike]

Mead, on 03 January 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

Lawl. So... if someone doesn't want to be killed 3 seconds after they leave the dropship, they should, what? Leave the dropship sooner? Simply refuse to be killed?

"Spawn camping" as defined in this setting consists of "Team A standing around in a semicircle blasting the fnord out of whatever Team B mechs the dropships poop out". It's not about cowering back behind dropships and refusing to play, it's about getting systematically violated before you can even control your mech.

When spawn camping happens, 99% of the time, the team that is being camped is either terrible or incompetent. There's no reasonable expectation at this point when some of the time the players can't hit the broad side of the barn to translate that into success.

Blaming the opfor doesn't solve your reality. It's always easier to blame the opfor when you're not doing well.

Edited by Deathlike, 03 January 2016 - 09:27 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Deathlike, on 03 January 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

When spawn camping happens, 99% of the time, the team that is being camped is either terrible or incompetent. There's no reasonable expectation at this point when some of the time the players can't hit the broad side of the barn to translate that into success.

Blaming the opfor doesn't solve your reality. It's always easier to blame the opfor when you're not doing well.

True, but they won't get better doing that to them now, will they.

[-Vompo-]

Mothermoy, on 01 January 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

again if damage was possible, i would understad your point. However there was no damage possible in this mode. The moment we drop 5 mechs focused you and you are dead.

This only happens once you've lost the battle. Before the fight is lost something like this should never happen.

[pwnface]

Kjudoon, on 03 January 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

True, but they won't get better doing that to them now, will they.

How about they get better before playing in CW?

With how devastatingly powerful dropships are in CW currently there is absolutely no excuse for getting spawn camped. If you are getting spawn camped nowadays you are essentially not participating in defending in a meaningful manner. if the score shows something like 24-2 when the attackers have aggressively pushed into the defenders drop zone, what the hell are the defenders even doing? I'm sorry but I've never been dropship farmed even when dropping solo in CW, this only happens when you have 12 potatoes on a team.

[MischiefSC]

pwnface, on 04 January 2016 - 01:05 AM, said:

How about they get better before playing in CW?

With how devastatingly powerful dropships are in CW currently there is absolutely no excuse for getting spawn camped. If you are getting spawn camped nowadays you are essentially not participating in defending in a meaningful manner. if the score shows something like 24-2 when the attackers have aggressively pushed into the defenders drop zone, what the hell are the defenders even doing? I'm sorry but I've never been dropship farmed even when dropping solo in CW, this only happens when you have 12 potatoes on a team.

So I made a new alt account (Baby Seal. My thanks to everyone who clubbed me) and went through the training grounds.

I hate to say it.... but it's a really good NPE. Fun, solid design, good education on some fundamentals. Try it - it's got training on how to protect your CT when damaged, how to target and use targeting data. Honestly new players who complete it should come out with better use of R and swing-to-shield behavior than half the vets in this game do. I'm very critical of PGI but the training ground is a really good new player environment.

So I joined CJF and played CW. All trials. Didn't have a lot of trouble breaking 1k damage even though Clan trials absolutely suck, except when I dropped with KCom and everyone kept dying before I got to them.

As a side note.... I'm ashamed to say that LRMs in that environment, pugging in CW..... were not that bad. Inferior to good DF weapons on a good loadout but if you're terribad at shooting where you need to or just don't have good mechs they're.... well, they're not horrible. Not great, but not bad. I'd take them over Streaks. The UAC2 is a steaming pile of **** though. Really want whoever designed that trial EBJ kicked in the nuts.

So straight pugging in CW with trials, you stick with the team and play as a team and get over 1K. It's not hard. It's not some magic trick, no huge effort. You just have to be willing to. Not playing as a team in CW and then complaining you get beaten by people who do is like not looking where you're driving and running into something. That's not some terrible car design or a failure in traffic laws - the assumption when you get in the car is that you're going to watch where you're going. If you don't, if you're reading the news on your phone and get in an accident, the problem is that you're being an idiot. When you get in the car and drive the expectation is that you're going to put in that minimum of effort.

Nobody is going to same I'm a 'comp tier' player. If I can get 1K in trials in Clan mechs I've never played (I don't own an EBJ, Scrow, Adder, Scat. Just 1 Dire Wolf I never play and a TW) while pugging and playing Clans (who are, apparently, totally unable to win at anything). Also I won every match so far.

It's not like you've got to go full on comp tier to win in CW. You just have to actually play to your team and put in a tiny bit of effort. Not even a ton. A tiny bit. If you're unwilling to do that I just don't feel it's fair to blame CWs design, nor do I think changing CW is a reasonable solution.

Edited by MischiefSC, 04 January 2016 - 01:50 AM.

[Bleary]

VompoVompatti, on 03 January 2016 - 09:48 PM, said:

This only happens once you've lost the battle. Before the fight is lost something like this should never happen.

It shouldn't happen after the fight is lost either.

I'll blame the system before the griefers, but any way you look it's bad gaming.

Edited by Bleary, 04 January 2016 - 01:53 AM.

[pwnface]

Actually a bunch of the clan trial mechs are decent builds. They aren't nearly as bad as they used to be.

New players don't belong in CW. That's the real issue. The solo pug mindset doesn't fly in CW either.

[spectralthundr]

Kjudoon, on 03 January 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

True, but they won't get better doing that to them now, will they.

So what do you want the other team to do, throw drops on purpose? C'mon dude. Get better at the game, slink out of tier 4.

[MechWarrior3671771]

spectralthundr, on 03 January 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

New players who have never played MWO shouldn't be in CW to begin with, that's what the pug queue is there for, to get them acclimated to the game.

Then block it off. Otherwise, the steamers will continue to flock to it as they do now. They call it "Faction Wars" btw, and they perceive "Faction Wars" as the main game here. Pug queue is merely a practice ground to them.

Quote

Those in this thread, yourself included that want PGI to hand hold newbies and pugs who are anti team play in cw are ridiculous,

Handhold? Anti-team? Hyperbole much? The goal is to keep the new players around so they will join a team and get better at the game. The goal is to have more improved and competent opponents in CW, instead of stomps and ghost drops. We finally have that new player base for CW, but they are ragequiting because your side has to roll over them and spawncamp their trial mechs for cbills and LPs.

You are the problem, not them.

Quote

If you refuse to play as a team, push when necessary, focus fire

Blah blah blah. Most of my pug drops go like this:

Blue1 is DCd and not coming back.
Blue2 is AFK, fell asleep waiting for match to load
Blue3 doesn't use VOIP and doesn't read chat
Blue4 uses VOIP but ignores all orders and does his own thing
Blue5 is bringing an LRM deck

And you say, work as a team, focus fire, push when necessary? LOL.

Quote

That's the problem with society today, if something is too hard or doesn't go their way they whine and want it changed to suit their lack of effort. It's sad.

Oh geez, you're trying to be insulting now, and failing miserably. As we've explained many times now - the solution is to separate pugs from pre-mades. But your side doesn't want that, because, despite all your salty talk about the participation trophy crowd, you want to farm newbies in trial mechs. We can't even get the elite teams to fight each other. So a big raspberry to your whiney justification for spawncamping newbies.

We don't want CW made easier. We just don't want the new player base driven off. And we think its lame you have to pick on the crippled kids to boost your self-esteem.

The goal is to keep the new players around so they will join a team and get better at the game. The goal is to have more improved and competent opponents in CW, instead of stomps and ghost drops. We finally have that new player base for CW, but they are ragequiting because your side has a need to roll over them and spawncamp their trial mechs for cbills and LPs.

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 04 January 2016 - 07:39 AM.

[spectralthundr]

Fen Tetsudo, on 04 January 2016 - 07:20 AM, said:

Then block it off. Otherwise, the steamers will continue to flock to it as they do now. They call it "Faction Wars" btw, and they perceive "Faction Wars" as the main game here. Pug queue is merely a practice ground to them.




Handhold? Anti-team? Hyperbole much? The goal is to keep the new players around so they will join a team and get better at the game. The goal is to have more improved and competent opponents in CW, instead of stomps and ghost drops. We finally have that new player base for CW, but they are ragequiting because your side has to roll over them and spawncamp their trial mechs for cbills and LPs.

You are the problem, not them.




Blah blah blah. Most of my pug drops go like this:

Blue1 is DCd and not coming back.
Blue2 is AFK, fell asleep waiting for match to load
Blue3 doesn't use VOIP and doesn't read chat
Blue4 uses VOIP but ignores all orders and does his own thing
Blue5 is bringing an LRM deck

And you say, work as a team, focus fire, push when necessary? LOL.



Oh geez, you're going to try to be insulting now. As we've explained many times now - the solution is to separate pugs from pre-mades. But your side doesn't want that, because, despite all your salty talk about the participation trophy crowd, you want to farm newbies in trial mechs. We can't even get the elite teams to fight each other. So a big raspberry to your whiney justification for spawncamping newbies.

We don't want CW made easier. We just don't want the new player base driven off. And we think its lame you have to pick on the crippled kids to boost your self-esteem.

The goal is to keep the new players around so they will join a team and get better at the game. The goal is to have more improved and competent opponents in CW, instead of stomps and ghost drops.

You're not grasping the point. If people aren't willing to read chat or listen to VOIP commands from an experience player they aren't looking to play as a team, that's the bottom line. So realistically what do you expect the more experienced players or PGI to do at that point? Penalize the other team? Make the other team's weapons not work? What?

There are plenty of people who offer advice and direction to new players in drops all the time, both CW and non CW. There's a tutorial in the game that does a pretty good job finally of showing new players at least how the basics work. What more do you want PGI or the vets to do at this point? CW is hard mode, it's always going to be hard mode given that it's the competitive portion of the game outside of private lobby leagues that the new player wouldn't know about anyway.

I'm someone who generally pug drops CW and I have no problem getting my share of wins even against larger teams, is it harder vs an organized unit? Well no **** it is. That's the nature of the game.

[CDLord HHGD]

What will help (not be the end all be all answer) is a command wheel. Quick commands that one doesn't have to pull away from battle to type into chat. I am hoping the command wheel commands will flash on screen as well.

[xTrident]

I completely agree with the OP of what will probably happen with PUGs getting constantly steam rolled/farmed...

But do you honestly believe any of these units are going to give a crap about constantly steam rolling them? No, no way they do. It's a problem that will "fix" itself...

Edited by xTrident, 04 January 2016 - 08:03 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

spectralthundr, on 04 January 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

You're not grasping the point.

Right back at ya.

Quote

If people aren't willing to read chat or listen to VOIP commands from an experience player they aren't looking to play as a team, that's the bottom line.

No, the bottom line is that they are already here. We need time to teach them to respond to VOIP, to not fire lasers into the air when the team is trying to be stealthy, to not run off and do their own thing, to not bring an LRM deck, to not drop light in 1st wave, to not plod back into certain death when the shotcaller says don't reinforce, etc.

We can't do that if you don't let them play half their drop deck.

Quote

So realistically what do you expect the more experienced players or PGI to do at that point? Penalize the other team? Make the other team's weapons not work? What?

Let the newbies play the game. They aren't going to get much experience when their 3rd and 4th mech is being spawncamped.

And I'm tired of this nonsense that your only two options are 1) spawncamp them or 2) throw the match. That's dishonest. There is a whole range of options in between. If after the 1st or 2nd wave you know its going to be an easy stomp, dial it back some to make it interesting for the other team. Try a defense you haven't used before, do something risky like sending a lance out, let your new guy take over as shotcaller. Anything like that.

If you are intelligent and creative enough to put together a good drop deck and use good CW tactics, you are also intelligent and creative enough to come up with ways to turn a would-be stomp into a challenging match, without throwing it. And wouldn't you rather have a closer match? Who enjoys rolling newbies?

Main point is to keep the game interesting for them, even though they are going to lose horribly. When they complain to me, its not about getting stomped, its about not getting to play the game because half their mechs are cored before they hit the ground.

But then, we're still dealing with the same vet attitude that "my time is oh so precious and last man standing is just wasting my time and should report for execution." Sheesh.

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 04 January 2016 - 08:30 AM.

[StonedVet]

So many butt hurt people .. Come on, my first 20 or so CW pug drops matches were utter stomps in favor of clanners. In almost every match spawn was camped. Frustrating yes but understandable. Who cares just accept defeat, drop your mech get a shot or two off before dying, rinse and repeat. Just move on and try harder. IF this was real do you think the enemy is going to care about your feelings? At that maybe adding a defection option would help lol.

[xTrident]

Lowridah, on 04 January 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:

So many butt hurt people .. Come on, my first 20 or so CW pug drops matches were utter stomps in favor of clanners. In almost every match spawn was camped. Frustrating yes but understandable. Who cares just accept defeat, drop your mech get a shot or two off before dying, rinse and repeat. Just move on and try harder. IF this was real do you think the enemy is going to care about your feelings? At that maybe adding a defection option would help lol.

Buttt.... It's a game and real world comparisons never work for games. Games are designed in order for people to have fun, suck you in and keep you playing. If this was real... Well, I don't need to explain.

As I just said, it won't change. And you're right, the players are simply going to have to suck it up and accept losing like that because no one is going to care.

At the same time though... I fully understand anyone's frustration constantly getting stomped.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Lowridah, on 04 January 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:

So many butt hurt people ..

Smells like projection from here.

Quote

IF this was real do you think the enemy is going to care about your feelings? At that maybe adding a defection option would help lol.

As a former infantry Marine, I can assure you that the goal of war is to stomp the enemy until they no longer want to fight. Cheating is allowed too, even encouraged.

That's not the goal here. We don't want the enemy to quit the field. We want them to stick around so that we can play this game more often and against better opponents.

[RoboPatton]

OP is right, I come around CW again for these events, and usually can't bring myself to finish them. (did about 10% of the CW grab bag).

I prefer the unpredictable chaos of pug vs pug, over the lop-sided slaughter of CW.

Yes yes, I know I should be in a unit...

[MrJeffers]

Fen Tetsudo, on 04 January 2016 - 07:20 AM, said:

Oh geez, you're trying to be insulting now, and failing miserably. As we've explained many times now - the solution is to separate pugs from pre-mades. But your side doesn't want that, because, despite all your salty talk about the participation trophy crowd, you want to farm newbies in trial mechs. We can't even get the elite teams to fight each other. So a big raspberry to your whiney justification for spawncamping newbies.

Bull****. There are very few who want to farm noobs.
The issue is population and time to match. With so many possible factions, coupled with the number of available planetary queues, separating groups from solos means *both* have to deal with an increasing number of ghost drops. And ghost drops lead to even lower participation numbers.

And yes, solos that expect to play as a solo and win in an environment that was made for teamwork are going to get wrecked. They need to work as part of a team, and there are PUGs that do this and are successful. It requires good players who use teamwork, same as units.

The "elite teams" avoiding each other is bull as well. There is incentive to switch factions - the loyalty rewards and balance changes. It isn't some nefarious plot to avoid each other, it's people following the incentives plain and simple.

[MechWarrior3671771]

MrJeffers, on 04 January 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

There are very few who want to farm noobs.

Then why do I see so many getting their 3rd and 4th mechs spawncamped by vets?

You won't even let them form up and plan an attack.

Quote

The "elite teams" avoiding each other is bull as well. There is incentive to switch factions - the loyalty rewards and balance changes. It isn't some nefarious plot to avoid each other, it's people following the incentives plain and simple.

228 posted their reasons for faction switching. Made perfect sense to me. Exactly what I would have done. So I agree with part of your remark. But as for the other, do you see a Steiner-MS VS FRR-228 front forming up with everyone else allying around them? Me neither.

Because "comp" teams that insist they don't want to stomp noobs would have to fight MS or 228... Heh.

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 04 January 2016 - 08:52 AM.