949 replies to this topic

[MrJeffers]

Fen Tetsudo, on 04 January 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

Then why do I see so many getting their 3rd and 4th mechs spawncamped by vets?

Because there is a very big difference between wanting to take advantage of noobs, and wanting to get rewards for the match. Just because the latter is happening, it doesn't mean that the former was the desired type of match as you are implying.

[MechWarrior3671771]

MrJeffers, on 04 January 2016 - 08:39 AM, said:

Because there is a very big difference between wanting to take advantage of noobs, and wanting to get rewards for the match. Just because the latter is happening, it doesn't mean that the former was the desired type of match as you are implying.

I don't agree. You would get the same amount of points (or even more points) if you let the noobs form up and play.

And the last spawncamp I saw ended with 1 min on the clock, so its not like spawncamping saves any significant amount of time.

[MrJeffers]

Fen Tetsudo, on 04 January 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:

I don't agree. You would get the same amount of points (or even more points) if you let the noobs form up and play.

And the last spawncamp I saw ended with 1 min on the clock, so its not like spawncamping saves any significant amount of time.

If you don't agree, then that means you want to spawn camp noobs. Because you are projecting your opinion on why people spawn camp. You can say you think it's dishonorable, or that you don't do it, but you cant cite the *reason* why other people are doing it unless you ask them. You have no idea why people are doing it so quit projecting your opinion on why they are doing it.Your opinion is not their reasoning.

I've been in many matches with spawn camping. And I am telling you its not because everyone wanted to farm noobs. Its to get the rewards and finish the match. I have *never* repeat, *never* heard - 'lets farm noobs' or anything to that effect either before or during a match.

And if a spawn camp match ended with a minute on the clock, it did in fact end earlier. Because it takes several minutes for a team to group up, and if you are waiting at your base for them to form up or stream in the combats would have never happened and time would have run out.

Edited by MrJeffers, 04 January 2016 - 09:27 AM.

[JaxRiot]

spectralthundr, on 03 January 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

New players who have never played MWO shouldn't be in CW to begin with, that's what the pug queue is there for, to get them acclimated to the game. Those in this thread, yourself included that want PGI to hand hold newbies and pugs who are anti team play in cw are ridiculous, plain and simple. And this is coming from someone who mostly pugs in CW or goes in with just a couple of friends and NOT 12 mans.

The problem is the the new players are already here. To say that they dont belong is too little too late.

And its hard to blame them for it. Go over to the Steam website and the only actual game play video is about Community Warfare. The entire video only shows CW maps and battles. They think that CW is the goal and the main content, so thats what they think they should be doing.

Plus, if we take the new players out of CW, then CW will be back to being a wasteland again. Its the New Players that are breathing life back into CW right now, and its the New Players who are getting the worst treatment for it.

spectralthundr, on 03 January 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

If you refuse to play as a team, push when necessary, focus fire, use your brain and play smart, that's completely on you. I've been on pug teams in CW that have beat bigger groups on way more than one occasion, and why is this? Because people listened to the call over VOIP to push a particular gate or focus fire on targets being called out. Those big bad 12 mans are generally good players yes, but their mechs die just like anyone elses if people play as a team, in what is the mode that most calls for teamwork.

Its not that these new people dont want to use team work. Most of them are dropping as Pugs trying to learn and get a feel for CW, so many of the Pugs are made up of mostly new people in under geared or trial mechs.

Even if they use all of the Voip and teamwork in the world, they will still be at an extreme disadvantage when going against more experienced players in Elited Meta Mechs.

They just cant compete and are easily pushed back and spawn camped.

The way you are talking is that you think they are on the same level (which they are not) , and are simply stupid because their fleet of trial mechs cant compete with the Meta Mech onslaught. I disagree.

spectralthundr, on 03 January 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

That's the problem with society today, if something is too hard or doesn't go their way they whine and want it changed to suit their lack of effort. It's sad. The game has a pug queue already, use it, learn some tactics, learn what works in the game (hint: aggression mostly) then try out CW down the line.

I dont think its a problem with society. Its a problem with the game.

The Steam website lures in new players with exciting videos of CW so that they want to try it, only to be set up for a seal clubbing and Pug farmed.

They may be new players, but I think they deserve better treatment.

[Barantor]

Part of the problem is that when a player jumps from QP to Faction warfare all the maps change, the mode changes and they need a dropdeck.

The dropdeck is easy enough to figure out, but the maps and modes only come with experience. Going from a rather open map with only a few control points to this Moba style gameplay is a radical shift for some folks and it will take practice.

My thought is that the maps shouldn't be QP or Faction exclusive so that folks just know them.

I'm also not opposed to a 'pug' style drop system for one or two planets in Faction Play that take ages to take control of and are clans vs IS (think tukayyid but like 10 times as many battles). Planets would shift eventually and the tier system would work on those, but it would be IS vs Clan rather than quick play. This gives folks learning the way or not wanting to group something to do that is meaningful for their faction. These would give loyalty rewards, but at 1/10th the current scale for the normal CW drops.

Factions would have to be more meaningful for me to ever do CW as the main event though. Right now it might as well be the world of tanks clan warfare map mode. Make it more battletech and less 'generic battle robot clan wars' and I might only play it.

As for the respawn thing? Make all mechs that haven't left the spawn points start building up heat till they get out of there. Don't let them sit still on the spawn point. I don't like how there are only a few spawn points and you can't select it though, would much rather CW be more BF2 and less Moba.

[Gas Guzzler]

You guys are forgetting that many times, players will simply poke from their spawn, requiring you to push them instead of just letting yourself get shot. Why push out when they can camp their spawn, have some help from dropships, and not have to push into the other team.

[Gas Guzzler]

vandalhooch, on 02 January 2016 - 04:25 PM, said:

Says the guy who has admitted to purposely causing some of his teams to lose in Quick Play so that his PSR won't increase.

Not sure I'm interested in a lecture on ethics from someone who doesn't have any.

Now now Vandal, that is totally understandable. Having played in Tier 4 as my alternate account, I can comment on how painfully easy it is. Why would anyone want to give that up?

[CDLord HHGD]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 January 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

You guys are forgetting that many times, players will simply poke from their spawn, requiring you to push them instead of just letting yourself get shot. Why push out when they can camp their spawn, have some help from dropships, and not have to push into the other team.

If the opfor is anywhere near the spawn point to where this tactic is viable, then no bueno (spelling? IDK, I barely know how to spell "Spanish"). If both sides sit on their spawns waiting for the other, then so be it. Spawn camping = bad and those who do it should feel bad for doing it.

Also, F the generators! The doors should be destructible themselves, not no damn generator. What are they, spring open with a powered solenoid holding them closed? Bad design is bad.

[Gas Guzzler]

cdlord, on 04 January 2016 - 10:21 AM, said:

If the opfor is anywhere near the spawn point to where this tactic is viable, then no bueno (spelling? IDK, I barely know how to spell "Spanish"). If both sides sit on their spawns waiting for the other, then so be it. Spawn camping = bad and those who do it should feel bad for doing it.

Also, F the generators! The doors should be destructible themselves, not no damn generator. What are they, spring open with a powered solenoid holding them closed? Bad design is bad.

This is more of an issue in certain maps. On Boreal and Emerald Taiga, you can see the entirety of the map from the top of the hill in front of the defensive spawn camp, so you can trade with ER LLs with a wide range of the map. On Vitric Forge you can hit the area near omega from the spawn, which should be an acceptable place for the OpFor to be. Same with Sulfurous Rift actually, on one side especially you can hit things that are pretty far away from the spawn. Hellebore Springs is probably the only map that you can only shoot towards a limited area from the defensive spawn.

[MischiefSC]

pwnface, on 04 January 2016 - 02:05 AM, said:

Actually a bunch of the clan trial mechs are decent builds. They aren't nearly as bad as they used to be.

New players don't belong in CW. That's the real issue. The solo pug mindset doesn't fly in CW either.

Really? The executioner with the lpl/cerml/spl mix and the sub 1.0 heat efficiency, or the badly placed MPL boat scrow, how about the stock Adder? The 2xuac2, 2x lrm 15, 2x srm6 (all with no artemis) that has too much srm ammo but only 150 uac2 rounds? That is literally 300 damage worth of ammo for the mechs only feeble, generally jammed primary weapon. Srm6s with no artemis are inferior to lb10x. The LRMS are the best weapon on it and it's a ******* EBJ. She's made to hull down and poke.

Side note, I really enjoy the EBJ overall. I like her movement profile, hardpoints and layout. I'd take it over a Thud, no question. At 65 tons it's a brilliant mech. I prefer it to the TW.

It's not about new players. I smurfed around over the weekend, a lot of these bad pugs had a full deck of purchased mechs many with MC cammo. It's really not newbies, it's people who just like they do in a pug match.

This was the same for everyone. There were Clanner pugs who made Davion look good. They were threatening to report each other for not going through the right gate. There were Marik players, a 2 or 3 man with tags, who were blunt about it. They just did their own thing, told anyone trying to coordinate the drop to hush and ended with less than 600 damage each. I was the only player on that team to break 1k.

Again, the issue isn't new players. It's bad players wanting to be bad and have PGI lower the bar enough that they win anyway.

No. **** that. In the words of my grand mother, "F*** that in it's f***ing f***-hole". Thus drive to turn CW into the pug queue is toxic. Put the CW maps and modes on rotation in pug/group queues. This isn't about getting people out of CW, it's about letting people get used to the environment while still in training wheels. Then if PGI makes CW better in its own right people will come there for the Faction Warfare/teamwork stuff, not just new maps.

[CDLord HHGD]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 January 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

This is more of an issue in certain maps. On Boreal and Emerald Taiga, you can see the entirety of the map from the top of the hill in front of the defensive spawn camp, so you can trade with ER LLs with a wide range of the map. On Vitric Forge you can hit the area near omega from the spawn, which should be an acceptable place for the OpFor to be. Same with Sulfurous Rift actually, on one side especially you can hit things that are pretty far away from the spawn. Hellebore Springs is probably the only map that you can only shoot towards a limited area from the defensive spawn.

This bring up another issue with map design, LoS, and weapons having ranges that are too long for their maps.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 04 January 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

Really? The executioner with the lpl/cerml/spl mix and the sub 1.0 heat efficiency, or the badly placed MPL boat scrow, how about the stock Adder? The 2xuac2, 2x lrm 15, 2x srm6 (all with no artemis) that has too much srm ammo but only 150 uac2 rounds? That is literally 300 damage worth of ammo for the mechs only feeble, generally jammed primary weapon. Srm6s with no artemis are inferior to lb10x. The LRMS are the best weapon on it and it's a ******* EBJ. She's made to hull down and poke.

Side note, I really enjoy the EBJ overall. I like her movement profile, hardpoints and layout. I'd take it over a Thud, no question. At 65 tons it's a brilliant mech. I prefer it to the TW.

It's not about new players. I smurfed around over the weekend, a lot of these bad pugs had a full deck of purchased mechs many with MC cammo. It's really not newbies, it's people who just like they do in a pug match.

This was the same for everyone. There were Clanner pugs who made Davion look good. They were threatening to report each other for not going through the right gate. There were Marik players, a 2 or 3 man with tags, who were blunt about it. They just did their own thing, told anyone trying to coordinate the drop to hush and ended with less than 600 damage each. I was the only player on that team to break 1k.

Again, the issue isn't new players. It's bad players wanting to be bad and have PGI lower the bar enough that they win anyway.

No. **** that. In the words of my grand mother, "F*** that in it's f***ing f***-hole". Thus drive to turn CW into the pug queue is toxic. Put the CW maps and modes on rotation in pug/group queues. This isn't about getting people out of CW, it's about letting people get used to the environment while still in training wheels. Then if PGI makes CW better in its own right people will come there for the Faction Warfare/teamwork stuff, not just new maps.

Whoa.

Try the Arctic Cheetah, Stormcrow, Timber Wolf, or Dire Wolf. Yeah those don't fit, so maybe sub the Shadow cat for the Crow. Seriously though, the Trial Dire, Timber, and Cheetah together are easily worth 2000 damage. The 4th mech is just a bonus.

[pwnface]

Fen Tetsudo, on 04 January 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:

I don't agree. You would get the same amount of points (or even more points) if you let the noobs form up and play.

And the last spawncamp I saw ended with 1 min on the clock, so its not like spawncamping saves any significant amount of time.

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Retreating to let the enemy team form up each wave takes a considerable amount of time. Why would a team do that when 1) There is no chance the PUG team is going to win and 2) crushing them quickly in their spawn results in wins in less than 15 minutes.

Sometimes when the queues are looking light and were not sure were going to keep getting matches I'll encourage my drop to feed the enemy team kills. We will stroll into the enemy drop zone and intentionally miss all of our shots for 2 minutes so the PUGs feel better about themselves and will queue up again. It kind of disgusts me to have to put on baby handling gloves and give them a few kills to save their egos though.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 January 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

Whoa.

Try the Arctic Cheetah, Stormcrow, Timber Wolf, or Dire Wolf. Yeah those don't fit, so maybe sub the Shadow cat for the Crow. Seriously though, the Trial Dire, Timber, and Cheetah together are easily worth 2000 damage. The 4th mech is just a bonus.

The ach isn't bad but smls instead of spls is just throwing damage away. The TW isn't terrible but for 75 tons 2lpls and 3 cermls is a light load. The dire is good. Best of the lot. The Scrow build throws away 5 tons and the range advantage that cermls have for.... the nice wub wub sound effects of mpls?

The dire is good, just slow. The TW and ach are mediocre. You can make that work with a good team, but try pugging with them. No modules, no consumables.

The modules make a big difference. I hadn't realized how much mileage I got out of using coolant flush to win a push/hold a push and arty to give me cover when out of position or blunt a push/break a line. Same with cooldown modules. Even zoom. Small things but they add up. The advantage you have with a fully spec deck vs a bare/bad/trial deck is significant. When I could afford to buy and spec a EBJ my damage jumped 800/match and that was 1 mech. It's hard to break 1200 pugging consistently. One good mech almost doubles that, with modules.

I think we forget just how big the gulf between a good spec deck (not even bleeding edge meta, just good) and a bare/trial/bad deck is huge. Quirks are a big part of that. Master + modules + consumables is another.

Try a smurf account if you haven't recently. Do the whole training ground, it's good. I put 14 million together in 2 days. The NPE itself is good. The gap between good and bad mechs however is huge.

[pwnface]

MischiefSC, on 04 January 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

Really? The executioner with the lpl/cerml/spl mix and the sub 1.0 heat efficiency, or the badly placed MPL boat scrow, how about the stock Adder? The 2xuac2, 2x lrm 15, 2x srm6 (all with no artemis) that has too much srm ammo but only 150 uac2 rounds? That is literally 300 damage worth of ammo for the mechs only feeble, generally jammed primary weapon. Srm6s with no artemis are inferior to lb10x. The LRMS are the best weapon on it and it's a ******* EBJ. She's made to hull down and poke.

You are using the wrong trials.

Having run DWF, TBR, SHC, ACH in an all trial drop deck, it's actually pretty easy to squeeze 2k damage out of that drop deck. We've beaten IS 12 man teams with full clan trial mech drop decks before. They aren't super optimized, but they definitely aren't terrible builds.

Honestly, the ACH build is fine to me. Small lasers have less burst but much higher heat efficiency. The TBR build is as meta as it gets. 2xLPL 3xC-ERML is what I run on one of my owned TBR chassis as it is. It isn't a "light" loadout. The 4th C-ERML costs you a lot in heat efficiency but does up your alpha potential.

Edited by pwnface, 04 January 2016 - 12:19 PM.

[MischiefSC]

pwnface, on 04 January 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Retreating to let the enemy team form up each wave takes a considerable amount of time. Why would a team do that when 1) There is no chance the PUG team is going to win and 2) crushing them quickly in their spawn results in wins in less than 15 minutes.

Sometimes when the queues are looking light and were not sure were going to keep getting matches I'll encourage my drop to feed the enemy team kills. We will stroll into the enemy drop zone and intentionally miss all of our shots for 2 minutes so the PUGs feel better about themselves and will queue up again. It kind of disgusts me to have to put on baby handling gloves and give them a few kills to save their egos though.

There is no good answer to a huge mismatch in skill. The nicest approach I saw this weekend was that when it was clear the pugs were no match at all, the team just pushed in, fought to the death and then respawned. They didn't focus much or play to survive, they came in swinging and it gave people a chance to at least earn their points and the match was still quick.

Otherwise though the best thing to do is end it quickly and try to be nice in chat. Dragging it out is just patronizing.

[pwnface]

MischiefSC, on 04 January 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

Try a smurf account if you haven't recently. Do the whole training ground, it's good. I put 14 million together in 2 days. The NPE itself is good. The gap between good and bad mechs however is huge.

I've already said it multiple times but the guy doing all the work on the tutorials is Dave Forsey. He's been doing an amazing job and is pretty much the ONLY PGI employee who has actively communicated with the community for feedback on his work. I've already tweeted Russ that he should give this dude a raise. Give him Paul's job please too.

[pwnface]

MischiefSC, on 04 January 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

There is no good answer to a huge mismatch in skill. The nicest approach I saw this weekend was that when it was clear the pugs were no match at all, the team just pushed in, fought to the death and then respawned. They didn't focus much or play to survive, they came in swinging and it gave people a chance to at least earn their points and the match was still quick.

Otherwise though the best thing to do is end it quickly and try to be nice in chat. Dragging it out is just patronizing.

It's pretty obnoxious to be inside the enemy spawn with 4 mechs shooting at you and dropships shooting at you for 2 minutes while I'm yelling in comms, "Kill me! I'm here! Come on! Do it now! Kill me!" in a poor Arnold impression. If the dropship has more kills than the entire enemy team combined, those players absolutely don't belong in CW.

[Appogee]

pwnface, on 04 January 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

Give him Paul's job please too.

Don't distract Dave from his other important duties.

Deciding to adjust the ECM range apparently takes months. I wouldn't want Dave to have to shoulder that burden.

[MischiefSC]

pwnface, on 04 January 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

You are using the wrong trials.

Having run DWF, TBR, SHC, ACH in an all trial drop deck, it's actually pretty easy to squeeze 2k damage out of that drop deck. We've beaten IS 12 man teams with full clan trial mech drop decks before. They aren't super optimized, but they definitely aren't terrible builds.

Honestly, the ACH build is fine to me. Small lasers have less burst but much higher heat efficiency. The TBR build is as meta as it gets. 2xLPL 3xC-ERML is what I run on one of my owned TBR chassis as it is. It isn't a "light" loadout. The 4th C-ERML costs you a lot in heat efficiency but does up your alpha potential.

I'll take your word for it. Admittedly while pugging for CJF you end up in one of 2 situations. You're either getting carried by someone like KCom where the TW/scrow/ach all feel way under-gunned or short ranged to keep up, or you're with pugs and they are not made to carry. The DW is, she carries great.

Pugging though you need range and a fat alpha. You need to open people up for your puggles because they won't coordinate fire. You need to leg and leave. Heat management is less of an issue because your teammates are always happily charging in to their deaths and there's always time to cool off. You just want them to get a kill, RNGJESUS willing maybe two, before they die.

A lone ach pugging vs a team hasn't worked well for me. I get more use out of the adder. Just remember that the pugging experience is where most trials get used.

However not going to put my experience over a tournament weekend in mechs I'm not familiar with against you guys running them long enough to build decks. Mostly it's that EBJ that just pissed me off. It's like it was built to troll people who drive it. Same with the executioner. It's like they were designed to set people up to fail.