949 replies to this topic

[Chuck Jager]

I actually like the basic CW model, especially the map related deck building, Clan or IS choice, and respawns. I am also motivated to spend cash on mechs that are performers over buying packs for nostalgia. There is more of a motivation to have premium time for getting modules across multiple mechs while having separate IS and Clan accounts (low tier accounts do not need these, but CW does). BUT at this time, I can only take it in small doses.

A solution I would like to see is all group play moved to CW. I think this would help diversify both modes. The really good teams our unit faces in group Q and tournaments are not the ones I see in CW on a regular basis. (notice I used word regular not do not play at all). At least in group Q if there are only a couple of good teams they have to face each other sometimes (planet/faction selection allows groups to dodge/group up in CW) . In reg Q small groups have to play elited assault mechs or take the tonnage loss to play meta cheese heavies or hurt their team and game play is repeatedly in under 5min. So newer players need more expensive mechs and have to join up with an group not 1-3 friends. In CW they have equal weight and will get a longer game, also not choosing a meta mech/build is not punished as harshly. The CW mode with more smaller groups of experienced players could put the brakes on mediocre 8-12 man seal clubbing. Also it would be nice to see the unopposed 8-12man from both Qs have to fight each other (planet selection still an issue).

If they made CW group only and folded in reg group Q, there may be enough players to justify removing solo play from CW. This could be a good first step towards making group play easier and justified for newer players. At the same time, larger groups would also hopefully have more competition. Maybe by adding a limit to group size 6-8, MM could be implemented to balance out matches and newer players could be put with more experienced (we would still see Q syncing-but that could be the next step). Folding all group play together would dramatically hurt the ability for certain units to farm planets, but I would rather see planet farming nerfed if it got more player seriously invested in CW. My own opinion of the final outcome of CW is that it is too easy for a small minority of the MWO population to influence the outcome. I do not fault anybody for using the tools available to them, but I do not take the achievement seriously. I think the lack of serious competition in both group Qs leads to bad parameters for balancing mechs/weapons. We are also stuck with a limited number of top level players who will stick together (human nature). Newer player now have a steeper curve in the steps up to the higher levels and comp players are stagnated by less challenge. I think this is an issue for PGI and all players together.

I do think PGI is stuck between trying to add a mode that follows lore and breaking the golden rule of gaming balance (more choices==more exploitable). If they simplify the faction choices and map, they will have hordes of BT nerds/seal clubbing units raging from mommies basement, but if they they leave it as is there will continue to be too many ways to exploit the system. If they try to mold it over a period of time, they may end up with a lackluster product at best.

[Johny Rocket]

Kjudoon, on 02 January 2016 - 04:10 AM, said:

And why money and kills need to be removed from the reward equation and put it all into a contract bid that is not contingent on damage, but on completing the objective. Combine that with R&R and you will have people trying to do missions without taking any damage. A greater strategic challenge by far when one team's goal is to stop that goal from happening by any means neccessary.

This planet pays 200m to the unit upon capture, 100m if failed. Each match dropped is one share per mechwarrior. The better the defender, the better bonus comes up. A contract bid system is a necessary evolution.

Mechlab economy is what keeps this from happening. Players would be furious. I average about 1m cb a match. So it takes 6 cw matches(roughly 3 hours) to buy 1 radar dep module. 10-12% matters a lot when you are shaving everywhere you can.
I hear players constantly talking about how bad the grind, for engines mods etc, is just to try a build.
I've done the grind like a slave to get gear rich, I even have a cap accel module. But I'm still having to grind so I can kit out all the mechs I have with out having to swap stuff around.

Fix that and I would like to see something like what you are talking about.

Until then I have to be that clubber and with a lot of the guys I play with being newish players we really need them guys to take it slow and pick them down a component at a time. Not just new players we do this to, if we catch a lead on anyone its time for the newish guys to get a chance to farm. The discussion goes back and forth in TS with every group I play with, lets end it to get a new match or how long will it take to farm, the usually choice is take omega to 5% and see how it goes.

[Fleeb the Mad]

MischiefSC, on 03 January 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

If you don't want a competitive environment, a war between factions where you're going to play against the other faction instead of play in curated, risk-managed matches where your opponents are carefully picked to be pretty close to yourself so you always have about even odds of winning no matter how good or bad you are...

go play in pug queue. It's fine, we all do it all the time. We already have that game environment. Go pug. That's cool, it has its own queue. It's already there.

CW does not need turned into the pug queue. If you play in CW you're joining a faction to make all out war on other factions for control of star systems. It's not a special league for ladder matches. You go in to help your faction win against other factions and you do it full on hardcore style. If that's not what you want then that's okay - CW isn't designed for what you're looking for.

We just really need CW gamemodes in pug queue.

I prefer to play MWO in small groups with friends, usually in groups of 2-3 with occasionally as many as 5. I'll mention I don't need the patronizing rhetoric about risk-managed matches. I played in the group queue in small teams for ages when we all knew it was punishment. I am a veteran of closed beta and like yourself I am tier 2 in the public queue. I am sheltered from nothing for my choices.

While it seems you've taken pains to restate that I don't care for CW in a condescending way, I'll say again that CW does not deliver enough enjoyment to be worth the time investment. Regardless of its idealistic goals and as much as some of the people I play with want to have a meaningful game-to-game progression, there's not enough there to derive satisfaction from it. Too long a wait between matches, too low odds for enjoyable games.

People who desire CW as a hard mode for unit play can have it, and it will remain a desert of empty worlds with nobody to fight over them because it's designed for a large scale that it does not have the player appeal to support.

[Kin3ticX]

Mothermoy, on 01 January 2016 - 06:02 PM, said:

was just running a pug community warfare, just simply for more stocking pulls. When i load up.....crap its 11 outa 12 premade on the other team. So im thinking ill do what damage i can.

Now dont get me wrong this group on the other team was really good, amazing in fact. Great teamwork. great plan. HOWEVER, it was obvious after the first 5 minutes this game was over.

HOWEVER Instead of just killing the gens, and being professional, this group proceeds to spawn farm every last one of us. Really guys? Without puggers this mode is deader then dead. When its obvious that you severely outclass the pug team you are against, just kill the gens and move on.

To many people have lives and professions and just don't have the time to commit to a unit or group. So instead of this units making CW more pug friendly, they were all complete and total morons. it may not matter, but i for one am done with CW.

I pose a question to all the larger units. Do you really think farming pug groups to the last mech, instead of just winning the match and moving on, will encourage us puggers to play? Really? and the sad thing is, this will not stop, this group will load up again, and farm every last mech AGAIN, and drive more puggers away. This CW mode is dead, and will stay dead.

Check out the CW guide pinned in the CW section of the official forums

[Mead]

Leggin Ho, on 03 January 2016 - 05:52 AM, said:

if folks don't want to be spawn camped, GET OUT OF SPAWN

Lawl. So... if someone doesn't want to be killed 3 seconds after they leave the dropship, they should, what? Leave the dropship sooner? Simply refuse to be killed?

"Spawn camping" as defined in this setting consists of "Team A standing around in a semicircle blasting the fnord out of whatever Team B mechs the dropships poop out". It's not about cowering back behind dropships and refusing to play, it's about getting systematically violated before you can even control your mech.

[T0rmented]

If you just end the game 'as quick as you can' the payout is terrible, to get a good payout you need to wipe the other team out.

[Love in an Annihilator]

The problem with 'If you don't want to join a team get out and use quickplay' is that CW offers nice variety from quickplay - wich can get boring fast:

• 6 new maps
  
• An actual assault mode (maybe the only objective based mode in the game tbh)
  
• Respawns
  
• No Nascar nonsense
  
• A nice ebb and flow of combat through the wave mechanic

I'm not saying anybody is right or wrong here, but without CW you miss out on a good chunk of content.

[Mead]

T0rmented, on 03 January 2016 - 02:04 PM, said:

If you just end the game 'as quick as you can' the payout is terrible, to get a good payout you need to wipe the other team out.

That indicates a flaw in the payout system. The game shouldn't require people to be awful to each other.

[MechWarrior3671771]

Mead, on 03 January 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

That indicates a flaw in the payout system. The game shouldn't require people to be awful to each other.

Yup. I think PGI has assumed too much from its playerbase, counting on us to not be jerks. But I think PGI is learning. Russ said something close to: "you ask for complexity, we work hard to give you that, and then you exploit a shortcut around it at the first opportunity". So maybe they will cater to the new steamers on this one.

Farming new players who just installed is not good for any game. They aren't going to stare at a Drop Prep screen for 20 mins just to be spawncamped over and over again.

Edited by Fen Tetsudo, 03 January 2016 - 02:20 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

MischiefSC, on 03 January 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

where your opponents are carefully picked to be pretty close to yourself

since when is there a matchmaker in cw?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Mead, on 03 January 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

Lawl. So... if someone doesn't want to be killed 3 seconds after they leave the dropship, they should, what? Leave the dropship sooner? Simply refuse to be killed?

and dont forget, you get banned for dcing. But the farmers dont get banned for making you want to DC

[Kjudoon]

Tractor Joe, on 03 January 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Mechlab economy is what keeps this from happening. Players would be furious. I average about 1m cb a match. So it takes 6 cw matches(roughly 3 hours) to buy 1 radar dep module. 10-12% matters a lot when you are shaving everywhere you can.
I hear players constantly talking about how bad the grind, for engines mods etc, is just to try a build.
I've done the grind like a slave to get gear rich, I even have a cap accel module. But I'm still having to grind so I can kit out all the mechs I have with out having to swap stuff around.

Fix that and I would like to see something like what you are talking about.

Until then I have to be that clubber and with a lot of the guys I play with being newish players we really need them guys to take it slow and pick them down a component at a time. Not just new players we do this to, if we catch a lead on anyone its time for the newish guys to get a chance to farm. The discussion goes back and forth in TS with every group I play with, lets end it to get a new match or how long will it take to farm, the usually choice is take omega to 5% and see how it goes.

A million CBills a match. Wow... YMMV moment to be sure. I've never seen more than 450k, so I don't know how you pull it off, and I watched your assault LRMishing video which I do as well with no where near that amount of cash success. So I don't get it.

But this gets back to the main problem: PGI incentivizes the spawn camping and seal clubbing because they have zero economic grasp of this game. Prices are static and eternal and not subject to actual use and market pressures; things that must come into existence for CW to have any real meaning with the development of faction based equipment. What does it matter if an Orion or a Stormcrow costs the same to every faction and player? It doesn't. Now, changing the price based on how many worlds your faction has that manufactures that particular mech would. Factions at war with one another would be able to embargo trade on them causing those other faction players to experience extreme spikes in that chassis. But this is also an irrelevancy without the concept of rearm/repair let alone total loss of equipment!

This is why I say CW is forcing the return of R&R and the requirement for hiring an actual economist to control a dynamic and fluctuating economy in MWO. There really is no choice. Otherwise we are going to continue to incentivize the worst behaviors in gamers. For this to really function you need so many things to be developed... things that apparently are on the development list for Jordan Weisman's Battletech game.... which I have a strong STRONG inkling that PGI is going to appropriate once developed since all sorts of material is being shared.

But let's point out another major thing that will have to be done before CW is going to be more than a sick joke:

Everyone's going to have to be forced to 'start over' with mech purchases for Faction Play. What does that mean? Everyone has their favorite toy for public queues, but CW will require a separate currency and equipment that does not cross over. Uh huh... I said it. And that's going to cause rage, and justifiably so, from the community. So why? Simple, because you have to create demand in the market with the new CW economy. If most players come in with their fortunes pre-made and a stable of eternal mechs from the PQs, well, guess what? That's never going to change unless you find a way to force them to consume. It's the same problem governments discovered during the great depression and created the idea of 'designed obsolesence'. Same thing is going to have to happen here on some scale.

Now... how can you pull that off without essentially robbing those who paid real money for mechs to play in CW? Well, that's the part where you have to Give in. Paid mechs should be grandfathered in and allowed to run inbetween the two without issue... but after the start of the CW economy, you can't do that. If you paid MC but not purchased a package, you probably should be allowed to get a refund of some of your MC you paid for the mech or allowed to re-buy it for a discounted price for CW.

And of course, two new kinds of mechbays to boot. One for your CW mechs and equipment, and another for just derping around. It's been done in other games... I play DCUO which requires 2 sets of equipment for each mode and it is taken as part of the game. The same solution will work here, but the transition will be more painful.

Anyway, as you can see there is going to have to be some necessary turmoil coming, and it's going to cost the community big in some ways, but in the end, it will solve so many community as well as ethical problems and provide for a massive increase in the richness and depth of this game, I would actually feel comofortable in predicting a long future for this game... IF... (note carefully that word, if)... they went in this sort of complex economic solution.

[Kjudoon]

BTW, I had a thought to really cure spawncamping if you wanted to drive a hard stake through it's heart:

Air cav drops.

What I mean by this is:

1. All inbound mechs cause an orbital strike killing every mech (Friend or foe) in the dropzone furthest from all enemy activity five seconds before the dropships enter the map.
2. Escort "gunships" come in and kill every mech (friend or foe) within 1000m of that dropzone in a flyover while drop is made.
3. Mechs are then dropped in that dropzone.

Any mech killed by this 'air cav' drop nets *NO* Cbills and *NO* XP for that mech. Both sides. You can no longer hide in your spawn, nor can you sit back and snipe the spawns and you put yourself at severe risk if you do.

It's a raw fix idea and needs refinement, but if this is what it takes to end players gaming a broken system in the mean time? So be it.

[Stat1cVoiD]

Holy crap,...

What CW needs is nothing but a CONCEDE vote. As soon as your side lost +-50% of their total Mech count, you can start the vote, if -+75% of players accept, it's done. Game over.

[MauttyKoray]

Hotthedd, on 02 January 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

Throw this idea out...

...into the garbage.

The game you are looking for already exists, go play it if you need to.

well excuse me *******, please tell me your grand idea, at least I'm suggesting ****?

I stated before that the reward for the objective should be raised and for kills to be lowered, but no one even batted a ******* eye at that and gave it a response.

So please, tell me, what master plan can you concoct that would solve CWs problems?

[MischiefSC]

Fleeb the Mad, on 03 January 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

I prefer to play MWO in small groups with friends, usually in groups of 2-3 with occasionally as many as 5. I'll mention I don't need the patronizing rhetoric about risk-managed matches. I played in the group queue in small teams for ages when we all knew it was punishment. I am a veteran of closed beta and like yourself I am tier 2 in the public queue. I am sheltered from nothing for my choices.

While it seems you've taken pains to restate that I don't care for CW in a condescending way, I'll say again that CW does not deliver enough enjoyment to be worth the time investment. Regardless of its idealistic goals and as much as some of the people I play with want to have a meaningful game-to-game progression, there's not enough there to derive satisfaction from it. Too long a wait between matches, too low odds for enjoyable games.

People who desire CW as a hard mode for unit play can have it, and it will remain a desert of empty worlds with nobody to fight over them because it's designed for a large scale that it does not have the player appeal to support.

So here's the thing though -

if you don't enjoy it, don't play it. At the moment it's packed with folks. Everything doesn't have to appeal to everyone; if CW has more purpose and the stuff promised for CW3 and such it'll have the population it needs. The solution is not to make CW like pug/group queue and eliminate the faction warfare facet of it, just make it pug/group queue but with a map (which is not decided by which side is winning but by how you exploit the matchmaker best).

You want to win the war, you beat the other faction or factions. You beat the best they have with the best you have. You go to war, you fight the enemy. Not a balanced team of enemy picked to ensure you have ~50/50 win odds, no matter how good or bad you are.

[Kjudoon]

Stat1cVoiD, on 03 January 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

Holy crap,...

What CW needs is nothing but a CONCEDE vote. As soon as your side lost +-50% of their total Mech count, you can start the vote, if -+75% of players accept, it's done. Game over.

Proposal like this havebeen made. Seal clubbers flip the table in fury. You owe them Cbills every time you step into the solaris arena and you're not allowed to make them wait for it either.

[EgoSlayer]

Kjudoon, on 03 January 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

Proposal like this havebeen made. Seal clubbers flip the table in fury. You owe them Cbills every time you step into the solaris arena and you're not allowed to make them wait for it either.

It has nothing to do with seal clubbing, people think it's a stupid idea because it's going to be a rage quitter's dream. It becomes a griefing tool.

You want to fix it so attackers don't brawl it out to the last mech?

Attacker Contract Bonus of 12 million C-Bills and 12,000 Loyalty points for destroying omega. Every enemy mech destroyed subtracts 250,000 C-Bills and 250 LP from the bonus. Remainder of the bonus is split equally between the 12 winners.

Then you know what happens? Gen rushes with no fights at all. The rewards are what shape the behavior.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 03 January 2016 - 04:33 PM.

[Kjudoon]

EgoSlayer, on 03 January 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

It has nothing to do with seal clubbing, people think it's a stupid idea because it's going to be a rage quitter's dream. It becomes a griefing tool.

You want to fix it so attackers don't brawl it out to the last mech?

Attacker Contract Bonus of 12 million C-Bills and 12,000 Loyalty points for destroying omega. Every enemy mech destroyed subtracts 250,000 C-Bills and 250 LP from the bonus. Remainder of the bonus is split equally between the 12 winners.

Then you know what happens? Gen rushes with no fights at all. The rewards are what shape the behavior.

And it illustrates the need for Rearm and Repair while divorcing rewards from individual performance. Maybe use a 'medal system' for special in match achivement of actual high accomplishment (kill the most turrets, kill the most mechs, killing shot on Omega, take the least damage) that only one person in the match gets, but then everyone else divides up a unit contract price for the mission.

The problem is gamer philsophy versus military philosophy. The gamer wants to score the most points. The soldier wants to complete the mission with the least amount of risk. The two are often completely incompatible when the rewards are not set to support it. Gamers always play to the rewards. So what is the game going to be? Completing a mission or satisfying the selfish desire to rack up the most points?

This is a conflict that PGI must resolve... if they even realize it exists.

[spectralthundr]

Fen Tetsudo, on 03 January 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

Yup. I think PGI has assumed too much from its playerbase, counting on us to not be jerks. But I think PGI is learning. Russ said something close to: "you ask for complexity, we work hard to give you that, and then you exploit a shortcut around it at the first opportunity". So maybe they will cater to the new steamers on this one.

Farming new players who just installed is not good for any game. They aren't going to stare at a Drop Prep screen for 20 mins just to be spawncamped over and over again.

New players who have never played MWO shouldn't be in CW to begin with, that's what the pug queue is there for, to get them acclimated to the game. Those in this thread, yourself included that want PGI to hand hold newbies and pugs who are anti team play in cw are ridiculous, plain and simple. And this is coming from someone who mostly pugs in CW or goes in with just a couple of friends and NOT 12 mans.

If you refuse to play as a team, push when necessary, focus fire, use your brain and play smart, that's completely on you. I've been on pug teams in CW that have beat bigger groups on way more than one occasion, and why is this? Because people listened to the call over VOIP to push a particular gate or focus fire on targets being called out. Those big bad 12 mans are generally good players yes, but their mechs die just like anyone elses if people play as a team, in what is the mode that most calls for teamwork.

That's the problem with society today, if something is too hard or doesn't go their way they whine and want it changed to suit their lack of effort. It's sad. The game has a pug queue already, use it, learn some tactics, learn what works in the game (hint: aggression mostly) then try out CW down the line.