180 replies to this topic

[El Bandito]

Hit the Deck, on 02 January 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

How to shrug it off? Every time you peek to see how the enemies advance, blue lazor beams are blasting your face doing full damage.

In defense I stay behind cover until the enemy comes into my view and I take the first shot--especially since I have Seismic module. Since they have a sniper standing way back, they are not pushing with full 12 mechs, which means easier defense. And when I am attacking, I just ignore the measly twin ERLL damage and get in close by using cover. Unless half the team is participating in sniping, the damage is miniscule to roll over one's mech. It is not as big of a deal as you make it out to be.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 January 2016 - 09:39 PM.

[The Image]

Hit the Deck, on 02 January 2016 - 09:14 PM, said:

They suppress you and your teammates so you just sit there while the enemies advance towards you....

May against a team of bad/inexperienced players that's an issue.

You CAN move to different locations, under cover on most maps.

There's very few maps where you can't find cover to move through.

Seriously, we're talking a fusion powered beer can. LET IT HAVE SOME F'ING RANGE! Nearly one shot of anything cripples the dang thing, minimum...

[Mcgral18]

DrPetPyroShark, on 02 January 2016 - 08:53 PM, said:

Not every mech IS has 25% quirk, but of the quirks that seems to be the highest of the non-light mechs (maybe I missed a medium with a quirk bigger than 25%), that and the X5 is a Hero, so not everyone has one of those either.

But just the base range, plus mods of Clan weapons is significantly further than the majority of IS 'mechs base range, plus mods.

Only TWO weapon systems, among those 'mechs quirked for it, can exceed Clan ranges.

Given that clan weapons are harder hitting, smaller, and lighter... SOMETHING needs to be done for balance.

When they say range, they mean RANGE. Not short range (sub 200M SPLs) but nearly 2KM range ERLLs.

The BattleMaster 1S gets the 25% range, plus 10% from the module, for 675*1.35=911M, or reaching to 1800M.

4 high mounted lasers, with 21 DHS to keep it cool. That's with a large XL, but smaller STD could be done. Do it on the 1C for a tougher but shorter ranged robot.

With the 10% duration quirk, the IS lasers also deal more damage per tick (while vanilla, the Clam ERLL is slightly ahead, as is typical)


The IS does the range game better, between mounts and quirks.

[The Image]

Winterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

That's an excellent way to misrepresent it, buddy. I might not do CW, but I do Math.

27 Damage over 1.25 sec (1 sec with the right quirks)
vs.
22 Damage over 1.5 sec

That's 21.6 (27 with 20% duration quirk) DPS for IS over 14.7 DPS for Clan.

Don't even try to tell me that it doesn't matter.

I don't know this, are there any IS mechs that get a range AND duration quirk sufficient to be a 'significant' threat to Clan mechs?

I can't think of any, but I admit to not having the quirks memorized by heart...

[Hit the Deck]

El Bandito, on 02 January 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

In defense I stay behind cover until the enemy comes into my view and I take the first shot--especially since I have Seismic module. Since they have a sniper standing way back, they are not pushing with full 12 mechs, which means easier defense. And when I am attacking, I just ignore the measly twin ERLL damage and get in close by using cover. Unless half the team is participating in sniping, the damage is miniscule to roll over one's mech. It is not as big of a deal as you make it out to be.

Fine enough but it's big deal because I'm one of those who have been killed near our spawning points by those blue beam carriers.

Also that I was frustrated because I was being suppressed and could do nothing is also true. Maybe itz PUG thing. Who knows.

[El Bandito]

Hit the Deck, on 02 January 2016 - 09:43 PM, said:

Fine enough but it's big deal because I'm one of those who have been killed near our spawning points by those blue beam carriers.

Also that I was frustrated because I was being suppressed and could do nothing is also true. Maybe itz PUG thing. Who knows.

It is a pug thing. They tend to freeze when shot at. Just need to give them a good whipping and point them at the right direction. If they follow, then good. If they do not follow, then the match was a loss from the beginning anyway.

[DjPush]

El Bandito, on 02 January 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

I play tons of Battlemasters and I tell you that if a Battlemaster is running at 80kph, then he is using XL engine, in which case not only he is being slower than a Timberwolf, he is also more fragile than a Timberwolf, validating my first post. Besides, being forced to reposition means it is not doing the sniping.



Works against pugs maybe. I just shrug it off.

9 out of 10 say a Battlemastet 2C would wreck a Timberwolf one on one.

[El Bandito]

DjPush, on 02 January 2016 - 09:51 PM, said:

9 out of 10 say a Battlemastet 2C would wreck a Timberwolf one on one.

As they should, since Battlemasters weigh 85 tons. But not as a Sniper. I was specifically referring to those +25% energy range quad ERLL BLR-1S'. They got nothing on Timberwolves once the Timbie gets into mid range.

Edited by El Bandito, 02 January 2016 - 09:58 PM.

[Scar Glamour]

DrPetPyroShark, on 02 January 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

I don't know this, are there any IS mechs that get a range AND duration quirk sufficient to be a 'significant' threat to Clan mechs?

I can't think of any, but I admit to not having the quirks memorized by heart...

TDR-5S and QKD-4G have both range and duration quirked at 15%. I wouldn't even try to outtrade those at 700 meters spraying blue vomit in my HBR. No way it can end well for me even with ECM, TC, and what-have-you.

[DrxAbstract]

Aresye Kerensky, on 02 January 2016 - 09:31 PM, said:

The problem with this argument is that IS mechs are able to be customized in a way where the weight and tonnage differences no longer end up being a hindrance because of quirks. The QKD-5K can easily do 4 ERLL with better cooling, shorter duration, and longer range than a 4 CERLL HBR, TBR, or EBJ.

Better cooling? - No. It has far fewer heat sinks. Perhaps less heat generation per shot, is what you meant?

Longer range? - 63 Meter difference is insignificant for long range weapons. Maybe if you were comparing ER Smalls to Smalls, 63 Meters would actually matter, given the theater in which the respective weapons operate.

The duration itself is the only notable advantage, and maybe cooldown which is entirely dependent on which specific Mech you use - comparing the most ideally quirked IS mechs against ANY Clan Mech.

Winterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

That's an excellent way to misrepresent it, buddy. I might not do CW, but I do Math.

27 Damage over 1.25 sec (1 sec with the right quirks)
vs.
22 Damage over 1.5 sec

That's 21.6 (27 with 20% duration quirk) DPS for IS over 14.7 DPS for Clan.

Don't even try to tell me that it doesn't matter.

You're not very good at math if those are the numbers you're sticking with... Just saying.

P.S. You ignored all the extra tonnage and space available in your 'calculations' - that matters too.

[Wolfways]

Mcgral18, on 02 January 2016 - 09:39 PM, said:

When they say range, they mean RANGE. Not short range (sub 200M SPLs) but nearly 2KM range ERLLs.

The BattleMaster 1S gets the 25% range, plus 10% from the module, for 675*1.35=911M, or reaching to 1800M.

Is that supposed to be the max range of IS ERLL's?
If so there's a bug/hack currently in MWO as I have been hit over 2k away by IS mechs a few times. The first time i realized was in a match where i saw a few IS mechs standing on hills, i checked the range (as I had 2xcERLL's) and it was just over 2k. Suddenly i was hit by at least 5 ERLL's from a few different mechs and my fresh TBR's frontal armour went straight to yellow/orange.

[Mcgral18]

Wolfways, on 02 January 2016 - 10:18 PM, said:

Is that supposed to be the max range of IS ERLL's?
If so there's a bug/hack currently in MWO as I have been hit over 2k away by IS mechs a few times. The first time i realized was in a match where i saw a few IS mechs standing on hills, i checked the range (as I had 2xcERLL's) and it was just over 2k. Suddenly i was hit by at least 5 ERLL's from a few different mechs and my fresh TBR's frontal armour went straight to yellow/orange.

There's a handful of greater quirks, the X5 and Commando, IIRC.
Those can reach ~1KM, which means ~2KM.

Just under for the Cicada (1950ishM) while the Mando is 2024M...of course, that's a Mando, which has to suicidally strip to reach 2ERLLs. The Cicaca can comfortably do 3.

[The Image]

Winterburn, on 02 January 2016 - 09:58 PM, said:

TDR-5S and QKD-4G have both range and duration quirked at 15%. I wouldn't even try to outtrade those at 700 meters spraying blue vomit in my HBR. No way it can end well for me even with ECM, TC, and what-have-you.

But at 15%, doing rough math in my head, that would still mean their maximum range is shorter than Clan maximum (even without TC)...

Or am I doing the maths wrong?

[Scar Glamour]

DrxAbstract, on 02 January 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

You're not very good at math if those are the numbers you're sticking with... Just saying.

Care to elaborate? It really isn't hard to divide one integer over another. If you manage to come to different results using same damage and duration values, please, do demonstrate your mad algebra skills for all to see.

DrxAbstract, on 02 January 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

P.S. You ignored all the extra tonnage and space available in your 'calculations' - that matters too.

TDR-5S
vs.
HBR-PRIME

Bottom line?
ECM, 3 DHS, 12 kmph for 10.7451 DPS delta (that's a 73% increase) and slightly better range. I will leave the Math for you to figure out.

[Khobai]

ISERLL max range is 1823m with 10% range module and 25% range quirk

The longest range laser clanners use is the CLPL which has max range of only 1320m or 1347m with targeting computer level 1.

CERLL isnt used because its beam duration makes it awful.

Edited by Khobai, 02 January 2016 - 10:49 PM.

[Mcgral18]

DrPetPyroShark, on 02 January 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

I don't know this, are there any IS mechs that get a range AND duration quirk sufficient to be a 'significant' threat to Clan mechs?

I can't think of any, but I admit to not having the quirks memorized by heart...

See above

[Wolfways]

Mcgral18, on 02 January 2016 - 10:24 PM, said:

There's a handful of greater quirks, the X5 and Commando, IIRC.
Those can reach ~1KM, which means ~2KM.

Just under for the Cicada (1950ishM) while the Mando is 2024M...of course, that's a Mando, which has to suicidally strip to reach 2ERLLs. The Cicaca can comfortably do 3.

I'm pretty sure they were heavy/assault mechs. I'm almost certain that the mech I checked the range on was an Atlas, and that was definitely one of the mechs that hit me.

[Scar Glamour]

DrPetPyroShark, on 02 January 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

But at 15%, doing rough math in my head, that would still mean their maximum range is shorter than Clan maximum (even without TC)...

Or am I doing the maths wrong?

675 m x 1.15 is 776.25 m optimal range for ER-LL with 15% quirk, which is 36.25 m more than c-ERLL and similarly 72.5 m more for max range.

[Khobai]

Quote

675 m x 1.15 is 776.25 m optimal range for ER-LL with 15% quirk, which is 36.25 m more than c-ERLL and similarly 72.5 m more for max range.

no one uses CERLL though. is bad weapon. the beam duration makes it unuseable.

so you have to compare the ISERLL (1823m) to the CLPL (1320m)(1347m with targeting computer 1)

The only reason why ISERLL beam duration is tolerable is because mechs like the battlemaster also get beam duration quirks.


But this is the reason why quirks shouldnt be used for weapon balance... quirks should only be used for differentiating similar mechs not for balancing weapons. The weapons should be balanced before quirks even enter the picture.

Edited by Khobai, 02 January 2016 - 10:48 PM.

[Scar Glamour]

Khobai, on 02 January 2016 - 10:39 PM, said:

no one uses CERLL though. is bad weapon. the beam duration makes it unuseable.

Hence the whole DPS discussion above.