96 replies to this topic

[AnimeFreak40K]

Alistair Winter, on 04 January 2016 - 03:43 PM, said:

That part of the community is obviously self-defeating. But that's actually such a small group that it can legitimately be called a 'vocal minority'. And yeah, I realize the irony in saying that. But we're talking about such a tiny group of people.

This is very true, but at least for me, I just don't like the idea of people being driven away by a vocal minority. This is how stereotypes start and this is why people have a bad impression of the game and some of its community.

[Wintersdark]

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

AnimeFreak40K, on 04 January 2016 - 04:22 PM, said:

This is very true, but at least for me, I just don't like the idea of people being driven away by a vocal minority. This is how stereotypes start and this is why people have a bad impression of the game and some of its community.

everybody likes it when they can pigeonhole the haters as a vocal minority but its hilarious that the next part of your statement is a dig on stereotypes when you JUST stereotyped said "vocal minority"

[AnimeFreak40K]

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

---

Look, I apologize for the above (but am leaving it there, as it is how I feel).

However, It was... Strongly worded. And I do - as I said - feel that if anyone has a right to be aggrieved, it's you Founders. You're the ONLY ones who do, as you bought into a design plan that didn't play out as intended.

I've been here pretty long; not as long as you, but damn close. I'm just sick and tired of the endless tears about how PGI "broke their word" with people. It's a game. If you don't like it, leave. Go away. Or at least, just shut up about it. But don't keep pouring salty tears all over the world, trying to warn off new players because PGI MIGHT LIE TO THEM - That isn't happening, won't happen, because there are no promises in the first place. No contracts. It's their product, for them to make as they please. They are not beholden to us; not to me or to you. The owe us nothing. But this also means, they won't break their word to anyone else, as there's no word to break.

I'm irritable about this, there I go again.

Seriously, I get that you're pissed about how things worked out, and you have some right to be. But really, just let it go.

You know what? I don't think you *should* apologize at all. I don't see you having anything to apologize about!

This is, pretty much the exact same thing that I got into with folks that I suspect to be founders (that actually caused me to even start this thread in the first place). In this regard, you and I are of the same mind. I am tired of the constant tears when in all honesty, most other games tell their Founders to get in line with the rest of the peons when the game goes live.

The fact that PGI continued to entertain any sort of special treatment for the Founders after the game went public (and especially after the "official release") is a testament to how much they actually give a damn, and you have some individuals who are so butt-hurt over perceived insults and perceived lies or whatever else that they only thing they can do is lash out.

...frankly, it's a little sad and a lot pathetic...

And again, the ONLY reason why this is even an issue at all for me is because it can (and does) drive away new people.

[Wintersdark]

AnimeFreak40K, on 04 January 2016 - 04:33 PM, said:

You know what? I don't think you *should* apologize at all. I don't see you having anything to apologize about!

Well, because I have nothing against Ted in particular, and I can definitely see how my post can be taken pretty aggressively. I don't mean to be attacking him personally with it, and I really try to avoid that sort of thing.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

VinJade, on 04 January 2016 - 07:23 AM, said:

@ winter burn
they are just steamers, whom most are just foul mouthed whiners who most likely played the game for thirty seconds and then rage quit and then whine about it.

Actually a lot of us "bittervets", and yes I'll include myself in that umbrella term since I've voiced my own salt a time or two, have sunk thousands of hours, and in some cases, thousands of dollars into this game.

To say that we're people who are baseless in our complaints is entirely false Winter. There's a good number of us who have been around since Closed Beta, or at least the first release of the Founders program 3 years ago.

PGI mined the salt they get from us through a myriad of idiotic design choices, and milking many of us fans for money, then turning around and saying that we were no longer the "Target demographic" and things like that.

Battletech, is inherently a niche property. Giant Robot's don't sell outside of japan very well, and combine that with a forced first person mecha game, and you narrow that niche even more. As an example, Mobile Suit Gundam, in all it's forms, sells amazingly in Japan still, and Bandai will happily sell the DVD's for 100+ dollars for half a series, but american anime fans won't pay those kinds of prices, when you can buy a full series of something else for 45-50. Bandai murdered it's own marketing of Gundam with archaic ideas, and backwards airing of the shows.

With Battletech, it's a little different in that, the players of Mechwarrior, may have started there, but most of us have a background of some type with the other mediums, be it books, or the cartoon from the 90's, or even the tabletop games of any description. You have a very, VERY entrenched, dedicated fan base already attached to this property. And in the case of MWO, PGI and IGP LITERALLY tapped those same fans to help fund the game, then told them to **********, even though many of us are still around and STILL willing to pump money in despite that.

I've been part of many fandom's that have gotten screwed over... There's discussion right now in regards to Star Wars, and the fact that Disney axed the entirety of the EU, yet decided to take cribnotes of some of the characters for "inspiration" used in Force Awakens, while telling people who grew up on the EU that the stuff they were invested in doesn't count anymore. And there are a good number of people bitter about that too.

It's the same kind of thing... when you're dealing with a property, that has a heavily devoted, entrenched fanbase, sure something you do is going to piss someone off, but you have to step lightly still, and at least try not to entirely throw crap in the faces of that established fanbase, because THEY are the one's that are really going to keep the property afloat, because they're the ones that have already been doing it for all this time anyway.

LordBraxton, on 04 January 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

thank you.

also, my personal preference is 3025, and CB was the only taste Ive ever had outside of tabletop, and it was glorious.

Same, this game SHOULD have been Mechwarrior 3025 to begin with, then moved up to Lostech, then maybe NOW start introducing clans.

Balance IS tech and Single Heatsinks, then slowly work in dubs and other tech, balance, then work in clan tech and balance.

Instead, they got greedy, decided to start us at 3049, so that players had "tons of toys" to play with. And it screwed the balance HARD.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

MW:LL? The unlicensed and actually illegal fan made game with, what, a couple hundred players? A thousand?

Battletech, the not-mechwarrior game?

Actually they had license from Microsoft to make it, as long as it stayed free. Theirfor was never "illegal" And should technically fall under fair use? As it could be construed to be an educational tool for Battletech?

[Wintersdark]

Flash Frame, on 04 January 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

Actually they had license from Microsoft to make it, as long as it stayed free. Theirfor was never "illegal" And should technically fall under fair use? As it could be construed to be an educational tool for Battletech?

Not fair use, absolutely not. However, McGral was right in that Microsoft has usage rules in place that they used. They either broke some, or actually had a custom set that applied to them in particular (kind of like how Minecraft now has a particular set that applies specifically to Minecraft).

So, no, not illegal - possibly questionable, but not illegal, and being non-commercial MS probably didn't care. Regardless, it was tiny and not scalable as a result. They could never charge, but servers aren't free. And if they grew much, MS would quickly get too interested.

The point is that MWLL hardly qualifies as a good alternative for those reasons. It could never be more than a small game.

[Ted Wayz]

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

Well, because I have nothing against Ted in particular, and I can definitely see how my post can be taken pretty aggressively. I don't mean to be attacking him personally with it, and I really try to avoid that sort of thing.

I didn't take it personally but if someones word is not their bond then what does it say about them? To say me taking someone on their word says something about me is true, but would you rather side with those who broke their word or with those with trust that people will keep it. Think about it.

And I did not hear anyone complaining when we were throwing literally thousands of dollars to fund this game. Now you say "You never should have believed PGI and if you don't like where things are going leave". How convenient.

The beauty is I don't have to leave, it is a free to play game. I do not have to be silenced. It is an open forum and as long as I post within its guidelines I can be heard. And if people don't like it they can leave. Trust me, if I ever put my resources back towards this game I will more than replace their expenditures.

If you read my post my last paragraph allows for others to have their opinion so please allow me to have mine.

[Wintersdark]

Ted Wayz, on 04 January 2016 - 05:17 PM, said:

I didn't take it personally but if someones word is not their bond then what does it say about them? To say me taking someone on their word says something about me is true, but would you rather side with those who broke their word or with those with trust that people will keep it. Think about it.

Because there's a big difference between "Giving your word" in the "I promise you, I'm going to do this" personal sense, and the "This is our design document, we are making a game, and these are our goals and planned features." The later is not writ in stone; it is - it must be - flexible, to account for the realities in making a creative work with limited resources and multiple stakeholders who must be appeased.

I get being pissed that things didn't work out, but it's pretty unrealistic to liken those two things.

Quote

And I did not hear anyone complaining when we were throwing literally thousands of dollars to fund this game. Now you say "You never should have believed PGI and if you don't like where things are going leave". How convenient.

See, you're making a fundamental mistake here. I'm not saying you shouldn't have "believed PGI" because we're adults here (I assume, as you're a founder) and you claim to have some understanding of business. Game design - any software engineering, but particularly game design - is a fiddly thing. You can say, "We want to have Community Warfare, and it'll have these awesome things!"

That isn't a promise. You should understand, that is them telling you want they want to do. There's a very real chance that it'll be impossible, or impractical, due to unforseen game design problems, limited resources, or any number of other things. This is a simple reality of making a game. You cannot predict just how difficult the actual implementation of what start out as pure ideas in the clouds actually will be. Things must change as development progresses. Add in IGP and their additional control and restrictions, and it gets even worse.

Quote

The beauty is I don't have to leave, it is a free to play game. I do not have to be silenced. It is an open forum and as long as I post within its guidelines I can be heard. And if people don't like it they can leave. Trust me, if I ever put my resources back towards this game I will more than replace their expenditures.

If you read my post my last paragraph allows for others to have their opinion so please allow me to have mine.

Everyone can have their opinions. But that doesn't make them good opinions. You're allowed to share yours. And in this case, those opinions expressed as they are being expressed on the steam forums are actually harmful to the game. And they're being expressed that way intentionally to be harmful to the game, because those people are lashing out like children having a temper tantrum, because they don't like "the direction the game has taken" (again, note the lack of specifics).

I say, "just leave" to those who do nothing but cry about how much they hate the game, because staying here and complaining that you hate the game and want it to change (in unspecified ways!) - though you damn well know it's not going to change the way you want...

That's just stupid and childish. It's completely useless. It's wasting your time, it's hurting the game (making any positive change even less likely). And unlike the likewise useless more positive posts made, it's not people chatting about the game they love, it's people chatting about the game they don't really like.

How pathetic is that? It's just a game. It isn't important. If you don't like it, why scare away people who are interested? They cannot be "wronged" as you where, it isn't possible now, because there's nothing even remotely that can be interpreted as a promise to be broken.

But despite the claims, nobody is scaring away newbies because they want to protect those poor newbies. They're doing it because they're mad and lashing out.

[Wintersdark]

---

I should note, I'm not "pooh pooing" any kind of negative post. There are problems, and they should be brought to light and discussed. That's cool.

Hell, I'd have no objection to your outlining what ways you feel the game has gone in "the wrong direction" with specifics, if you also included - specifically - what you felt was the right direction they should go in, what they should do. That's great stuff.

That's a totally different thing than, "PGI didn't make the game I wanted them to make; they wronged me four years ago, so I'm going to hurt them any way I can!!"

[Ted Wayz]

Wintersdark, on 04 January 2016 - 05:37 PM, said:

Stuff.

Wow. You are totally immune to the cause and effect PGI has brought upon themselves.

You trump up excuses of why PGI has not delivered the platform they stated they would deliver and call us fools for entrusting them to "say what they do and do what they say". I do know a bit about business. I know you trust but verify. And I know you lose business, and stock price (see Volkswagen), when your integrity comes into question.

I find your point of view extremely cynical.

I find it appalling that you would tell the people that funded this game, that made it possible, to go screw if we do not like its current direction.

Do me a favor and look up the definition of forum and tell me what that definition excludes. You are only excluding things that do not meet your definition of acceptable, and that sir is childish.

Maturity is being able to endure opinions that do not match your own because by chance you might learn something from it.

At the end of the day very few who play these games read these forums. And if people are scared away by what they read in here then by god good luck in real life. 90% of their judgement will be based upon the product placed before them. As I said before their perception of what this game should be may be vastly different than what others may perceive just based upon when they joined the game and I respect that. And so should you.

Edited by Ted Wayz, 04 January 2016 - 05:49 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Ted Wayz, on 04 January 2016 - 05:48 PM, said:

Wow. You are totally immune to the cause and effect PGI has brought upon themselves.

You trump up excuses of why PGI has not delivered the platform they stated they would deliver and call us fools for entrusting them to "say what they do and do what they say". I do know a bit about business. I know you trust but verify. And I know you lose business, and stock price (see Volkswagen), when your integrity comes into question.

I find your point of view extremely cynical.

I don't. I *AM* a cynical person, but in this case, I don't feel it's cynical at all.

In terms of game design, it's the hard, cold reality. It's ALWAYS this way.

Volkswagon is an interesting comparison. What they did was almost criminal, as it was deliberately breaking testing systems to get around emissions standards.

PGI failed to deliver what they originally wanted to deliver. Failing != deliberately screwing people.

Again, what specifically are you most upset about? Not a broad brush thing, one specific, serious case of "Here they broke their word." One that clearly shows the wrong direction. Understanding, of course, that PGI isn't one person and then, more than now, was even more fractured with many stakeholders with control.

You could say third person view. Something they outright said they wouldn't do, and did. Of course, it ended up harmless, and all the reasons they didn't want to do it didn't end up being a problem, and it actually does help some young kids learn to play. They broke their word... But didn't hurt the game with it. And that's certainly a case where the guy implementing it (god, I hate standing up for Paul!) didn't even want to do it.

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I find it appalling that you would tell the people that funded this game, that made it possible, to go screw if we do not like its current direction.

I'm glad Founders put in their dollars to get the game started. Just like I'm really glad people bought gold mechs. I certainly didn't - I could have, but didn't. Founders plans, just like Kickstarters, are extremely high risk. They aren't even really investments, just a pre-order based on a wishlist of features that may or may not actually happen. I'm not the gambling sort, so I don't do that.

And again, what direction is that, and what "direction" would be better? You keep saying "direction" like it means something. It doesn't, without further detail.

You're not entitled to anything else. It's awesome that you chipped in and helped get the game going. Really, it is; the game may have never started without you. But that's as far as that goes. You're not an investor. You don't own a portion of MWO.

It's unfortunately that it didn't work out the way you wanted. I'd have liked it if things ended up closer to the original plan, too. I just accept that this is the reality of the situation. Game development never works out according to plan, not ever.

Quote

Do me a favor and look up the definition of forum and tell me what that definition excludes. You are only excluding things that do not meet your definition of acceptable, and that sir is childish.

Maturity is being able to endure opinions that do not match your own because by chance you might learn something from it.

At the end of the day very few who play these games read these forums. And if people are scared away by what they read in here then by god good luck in real life. 90% of their judgement will be based upon the product placed before them. As I said before their perception of what this game should be may be vastly different than what others may perceive just based upon when they joined the game and I respect that. And so should you.

I'm fine with opinions. My problem is with these posts on Steam, that exist not to share a reasoned opinion but specifically to scare of new players. It's the motivation that bothers me.

If these people, these posts, clearly outlined specifics of what they don't like, and what they wish would have happened, I wouldn't object.

My problem isn't "opinions I don't agree with". I think I've been pretty clear about it. Hell, I keep asking you what your opinion actually is, as opposed to some vague crap like "I don't like the current direction, and won't spend more until they fix their direction". I mean, saying that is fine, but it doesn't actually mean much other than you don't like the current product and don't want to buy any more of it - reasonable, but it ends there. Ok. Don't buy more of it.

It's these posts (not yours in this thread; the Steam posts in question) that aren't actually reasoned opinions, they are weapons people are using to hurt PGI however they can disguised as opinions. There's a difference. They aren't actually trying to discuss anything - there are never specifics, after all. Just "PGI hurt my feels."

Edited by Wintersdark, 04 January 2016 - 06:10 PM.

[Pjwned]

This argument is always just fear mongering horseshit.

"If PGI fails because they're incompetent then no other company will touch it...BEWARE OF WHAT YOU DO!!!!! OOOOOOOoooooo..............scary"

Right, that is if you completely ignore the ridiculous amounts of money that people have poured into this game and the reasons why otherwise dedicated fans of the franchise no longer support MWO (hint: it's because of PGI).

The most simple & basic research would easily reveal how many millions of dollars MWO has made, and to a company that was determined enough and thought "we could do a better job than these scrubs and make even more money" it would be pretty desirable regardless of how PGI has managed their game.

Either way though, no other company is going to take over any time soon because PGI has the license.

Edited by Pjwned, 04 January 2016 - 08:32 PM.

[Sagamore]

The best thing on Steam is to not even engage with these guys. Some of their arguments are so ridiculous and their topic titles have click bait written all over them. If you reply to one of these topics, it will bump their topic to the top so anyone perusing the discussion section for the game will see all of these headlines whether they are fact or fiction.

Edited by Sagamore, 04 January 2016 - 10:55 PM.

[Lupis Volk]

It's funny that one of said "salties" stalked over here and somehow thought i was OP and proceeded to attack me on said steam forum thread.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 05 January 2016 - 01:40 AM.

[rollermint]

carnivorouswinds, on 04 January 2016 - 05:03 AM, said:

MWO being the only option does not make it a good one.

A bad option is far desirable than no option at all.
Bad option has a good chance of improvements and getting better, which i feel the game is continuously making. The alternative means we are all SOL for, if history teaches us anything, up to a decade.

[Eboli]

I have on occasion had reasons to be negative towards the development and progress of MWO and have been here since Closed Beta. I still play and enjoy the game for what it is.

Yes, things have not progressed as fast as some players / former players have hoped but progress is happening. Some decisions may not be the best either I still have faith and patience. I am not a white knight and my funds will come and go depending upon MWO's progress.

MWO has the foundations already built, now we need the interior decorators to come up and install the fine details which will make this game shine. In the meantime I will continue to enjoy what we have and build up my assets for what is to come.

Whether you like it or not PGI has the licence to the game and likely to have it for a few years to come. It is currently the best and only MW game available so you either use what you have or just walk away. Bitter vets just cannot learn to get over their their issues and should just walk away to let people to enjoy the game for what it is and what it may become.

I like other players just ignore those detractors as they are not worth the time or the negativity.

Cheers
Eboli.

Edited by Eboli, 05 January 2016 - 02:12 AM.

[spectralthundr]

saKhan Ds00 Kerensky, on 04 January 2016 - 12:09 AM, said:

That was THE best "become a shill" speech I've ever read. It even played on the heartstrings of "nothing this good will ever happen again for many years" fallacy, that is so long as you forget about Mechwarrior: Living Legends or Battletech.

11/10

MW:LL had maybe 50 players at it's peak and was even buggier than MWO. I really wish the island dwellers would take off the rose colored glasses when it comes to MW:LL, it really wasn't very good.

[C E Dwyer]

What do I get from this thread.

Where do I stand.

I'm by no way a Fanboi, and while I do think the M.W.O bird has flown, due to P.G.I's lack of skill and this is all down to the lead developer, and M.W.O will remain in the dolrums while he holds the position I am in no way a bitter vet.

I wouldn't even say bitter vet, as most of the hatred thrown at this game comes from a small minded bunch of MM.LL fans, their toy had restrictions placed on its development, and they want P.G.I to fail, because they want their toy back.

The reason MW LL failed is down to these MM LL fanboi's who basically made new comers feel as unwelcome as a fart in an astronaughts suit. their attitude made sure MM LL was never going to get a wide level support, and now they are doing their level best to destroy MWO because they are stupid and blinkered.

MWO will struggle on for years yet, despite paul despite crap servers and cheap assed trace routing certainly until 2017, because for a niche game it has enough support, and enough people that continue to spend because they want to play and the alternative is to wait or suffer verbal abuse for not being a leet pilot straight off the bat