296 replies to this topic

[sycocys]

The notion of end game is a fallacy here.

There are to main modes in MWO:
Quick matches
And
Longer matches with a bonus reward system.

"End game" completely gets obliterated by the fact the one of the most numerous bonus rewards is a way for new (and new/free) players to expand their game experience with mechbays, followed by teaser cash shop items. This system is designed specifically to get new players playing, to give them a taste of the things they can buy in order to entice them to buy more.

Past that it amounts to 50% of the game modes.

There is no "end game". There may be a limited meta game with the map. But there is no end game mode in MWO. I know people want so badly to be stuck to the idea/promise that that is was CW was supposed to be, but it simply is not.

It's longer matches with a bonus reward system attached.

[Captain Stiffy]

There can be no defense for pubstomping. If you think there is you are a BAD PERSON! Really you are just a bad person inside. Try to do better than that.

[sycocys]

Also as I stated before - it boils down to $$$.

Vets have bought what they are going to buy. Continued income from them is almost entirely based on PGI creating new content (mechs) to sell to them (us). That's what they have to look forward to, plus the occasional premium time purchase or MC purchase.

The rest of the vet money is spent, it is no longer potential income it is spent income.

- New players/free players on the other hand are potential buyers of MC for cockpit items, paint, heroes, and champion mechs. They are potential buyers of every single pack currently for sale that vets aren't going to buy again AND potential buyers of the same packs being produced for vets.
End of the day, whether you like it or want to admit it or not - these players are far more valuable to the game and its future than we are.

They stop being potential buyers when they aren't enjoying playing the game, when they simply can't earn rewards because all they see is rotfl stomps and jaded players telling them "Join a unit or uninstall."

^ This is why things are going to change, it just is. It's your choice whether you want to be a part of the discussions to help make things better for the new guard and future of MWO, or if you want to be bitter until the end.

Edited by sycocys, 13 January 2016 - 06:44 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

So what exactly is the reason to split the CW queue? More accessible how?

By letting new players take worlds in CW from veteran units without having to play them?

You dont own the worlds, the faction you contract for does.

thats really arrogant to think merc corps are entitled to own entire planets lmao. thats not how it works. youre a merc corp that contracts for a faction, and the faction owns the planets.

phase 3 was supposed to add periphery planets that merc corps can fight other merc corps over for ownership. But the core worlds are owned by factions, not merc corps.


the reality is pug vs premade isnt fair. you might as well not even play the match because the outcome is basically predetermined.

so yes pugs should be able to contribute to taking planets without having to play premades. it should be split queue pug vs pug and premade vs premade. both should contribute towards capturing slots on planets.

Edited by Khobai, 13 January 2016 - 06:55 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Khobai, on 13 January 2016 - 06:44 PM, said:

You dont own the worlds your faction does.

Way to try and avoid the point.

So the current arguments for it are

"I want to win the Super Bowl but I don't want to have to play against Super Bowl teams"

And

"We need to keep dumbing and simplifying to attract a more and more casual audience so they feel like winners without having to put in the effort to win"

[Johnny Z]

Bonger Bob, on 13 January 2016 - 04:16 PM, said:

wow, ive received systematic abuse, been belittled and derided for the last 2 weeks over attempting to discuss and suggest ideas related to exactly this.

+1 and Amen.

and im sure there's more of the hate and vitriol spread in these pages.

i give up attempting an actual discussion and rational debate about the pro's and con's. For the handful of die hard elitist entitlement brats that want it to remain the way it is, go **** yourselves, you seem very adept at doing exactly this.

Take your hand off it and open your eyes, it WILL happen sooner or later, be apart of the process or **** off.

Your funny. Your also the only one with vitriol. Also I havent seen the word vitriol used about someone accurately ever lol.

Also it seems most are not for split queues here and your fighting an uphill battle.

Lastly I have no problem with split queues if they do get added. I am sure there is a good reason that as a player I cant see. That may seem like an *** kisser but its just like construction, an electrician does his job and no one argues with him and he has no idea how others do theirs nor does he care.

We are all player here giving random replies after all. Some good and some bad.

Edited by Johnny Z, 13 January 2016 - 06:49 PM.

[sycocys]

The planet system has been a pretty abysmal failure through and through up to this point either way. It would be far better served to use it as a background layer and apply an active leader board system anyhow.

I know TT and Lore people want that system to cling to for their roleplaying, but it just really hasn't panned out to be any sort of a positive feature for CW up to this point.

[AEgg]

MischiefSC, on 13 January 2016 - 06:48 PM, said:

Way to try and avoid the point.

So the current arguments for it are

"I want to win the Super Bowl but I don't want to have to play against Super Bowl teams"

And

"We need to keep dumbing and simplifying to attract a more and more casual audience so they feel like winners without having to put in the effort to win"

But YOU aren't trying to "win the super bowl". Your FACTION is trying to "win the super bowl". And to do that, you have the best and worst players in the game, against the other factions best and worst players. Everyone contributes as best as they are able. And for those contributions to be meaningful, the games need to be at least somewhat balanced.


These threads really need to be merged...

Edit: moved empahsis for clarity

Edited by AEgg, 13 January 2016 - 06:56 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

But YOU aren't trying to "win the super bowl". Your FACTION is trying to "win the super bowl".

this. CW is faction centric. its not merc corp centric.

merc corps dont own planets. factions do. and factions are comprised of both players that are in merc corps and players that arnt in merc corps.

that is why split queue is not a big deal. because everyone in the faction is contributing to help their faction. pugs can do it by playing other pugs and premades can do it by playing other premades.


And like I said above, phase 3 is supposed to add periphery worlds where merc corps can fight other merc corps for ownership of planets. So if your merc corp wants to own planets youll still be able to fight for them in the periphery... and pugs wont be allowed to participate in periphery matches... it will just be merc corp vs merc corp.

Edited by Khobai, 13 January 2016 - 07:07 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Except they are not all contributing the same. My team is trying to win the Super Bowl - this one guy wants to help carry the ball for the other team but not actually play on the field where I can tackle him. If the team he's helping wins he gets a Super Bowl ring too.

You want to win but not have to play on a level field against everyone. You want CW rewards but pug/group queue experience.

You want to play on the same field for the same rewards but not have to play against people better than yourselves.

Stick to pug queue. You already have it. No reason to reduce CW to what we already have.

[Khobai]

Quote

Except they are not all contributing the same. My team is trying to win the Super Bowl - this one guy wants to help carry the ball for the other team but not actually play on the field where I can tackle him. If the team he's helping wins he gets a Super Bowl ring too.

Yes everyone is contributing the same. Whether youre in a merc corp or a lone wolf youre still just one person on a team.

Quote

You want to win but not have to play on a level field against everyone. You want CW rewards but pug/group queue experience.

actually a level playing field is what split queue aims to achieve. pugs play pugs and premades play premades. that is a level playing field.

Quote

You want to play on the same field for the same rewards but not have to play against people better than yourselves.

duh. I want to play people that are equal to me. because thats whats fair.

besides you can just as easily flip that argument around and apply it to pugstomping, and say merccorps want the same rewards for pugstomping that they get for playing other units. its a baseless argument.

matches should try to be fair for both teams, which means pugs vs pugs and premades vs premades.

Quote

Stick to pug queue. You already have it. No reason to reduce CW to what we already have.

I have yet to hear any coherent argument for how split queues would reduce CW.

The entire opposition seems to be bad players that can only win by pugstomping. And they cant even come up with a decent argument...

Edited by Khobai, 13 January 2016 - 07:22 PM.

[Ted Wayz]

How about a split account system first? I would pay real money to split my account into IS and Clan.

"But then you will just jump around sides!". I could do it now if I wanted, just create another account and pay c-bills for mechs. My proposal makes money for PGI and could raise population.

For the OP, how would just splitting queues make CW good? How about PGI make an enjoyable CW so that there is actually a meaningful population. Why don't they use lore and game modes to get players into CW? Why don't they use a real skill rating and advancement system to put them in a position where they can succeed?

For example, new people join a faction and are assigned a unit, possibly one based on lore. They even get a decal to place on their mech to show their unit and loyalty. This does not mean they cannot immediately join another unit, it just gives them a starting point and an identity.

Planet conquest becomes a tug of war using all game modes to represent units trying to land, take strategic objectives, consolidate their position then conquer the planet by taking a city (Note: Using current maps we could have cold planet, temperate planet and hot planet for immersion). During the opening stages of planet attack/defense units could be matched against units of similar ability using an actual skill rating (not XP bar) and the current MM.

When the attack reaches the final stage a different game mode evolves. The final stage would involve a ladder match in a city environment, meaning eventually lower rank units could face higher rank units (war is hell). Everyone could keep fighting but the "consolation" matches would contribute much less than the matches involving teams that have advanced. The ladder matches would continue until one side no longer has a team advancing at which point scores are tallied and the planet goes to the side with the highest tally. Unit contributions could also be tallied and units would receive rewards based on overall contribution. There could even be a leader board.

IMO this offers a more well rounded experience for a new player.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 13 January 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

I have yet to hear any coherent argument for how split queues would reduce CW.

The entire opposition seems to be bad players that can only win by pugstomping. And they cant even come up with a decent argument...

Splitting the low player count, increase in search times, groups needing to try to find a spot to fit being harder since low pop.

Reducing it down to just IS vs Clan with IS vs IS and Clan vs Clan in various ways with a MM that tries to match group sizes and skill would be better. For example 2 teams that are each half pugs, half a premade should work since the current issue is more about one team being something like 6man+4man+2pugs vs 12pugs.

Edited by dario03, 13 January 2016 - 07:36 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Splitting the low player count, increase in search times, groups needing to try to find a spot to fit being harder since low pop.

and that argument is lame. i already covered this.

game will try to match pug vs pug and premade vs premade. if its unable to do so after a certain amount of time, then it will open a release valve, and allow a pug vs premade match to take place. Because thats still preferable to no match at all.

[Parnage Winters]

CW has many problems, a lack of safe spaces for pug groups is not one of them. While I would like it to be more fleshed out so you don't see people unprepared stumbling into it. Cadets for example shouldn't be allowed into CW until after the last bonus and something that actually explains what Faction warfare is would be nice and by nice I mean seemingly just common sense.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 13 January 2016 - 07:38 PM, said:

and that argument is lame. i already covered this.

game will try to match pug vs pug and premade vs premade. if its unable to do so after a certain amount of time, then it will open a release valve, and allow a pug vs premade match to take place. Because thats still preferable to no match at all.

How is a valid statement on what would happen a lame argument? It would split the player base which means less players to work with, that is how it would be.
And besides that your solution isn't even much different than what I just said. Only difference in the pug/group part of my suggestion is I'm talking about having mixed pugs and groups but with the system trying to keep them even per team. I didn't mention it directly but it would also make pure groups vs groups and pure pug matches as well if thats what the playerbase supported at the time. I'm going to assume your release valve would do the same before jumping straight to pug vs premade.

[El Bandito]

5LeafClover, on 13 January 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

CW rewards are rather good actually, if you discount wait times that is.

Not for newbies. Those guys generally do around 300 damage while wasting all four mechs. They are wasting their time playing in CW, if their goal is to farm money.

Edited by El Bandito, 13 January 2016 - 08:06 PM.

[MischiefSC]

So have a system designed to 'protect' people who don't play as well or who don't coordinate as much from those who do -

in the warfare simulation. So that CW plays more like pug queue.

Put the maps/modes in pug queue. Play with the matchmaker in same maps/modes.

If you play in CW there's no artificial limits on who fights who. It's an open, level field. You're competing directly with everyone else for the same objectives.

Which is what CW was promised as and currently is.

If you don't want that, stay in pu/group queue. It already has exactly what you're talking about.

Quit trying to break CW until it's just like pug/group queue. You already have pug/group queue.

[wanderer]

It amazes me how many people whine about what it supposed to be an inherently unfair system with endless demands to make it "fair".

No. Anything with teams will have better and worse, superior and inferior, first and last.

That's the entire point. CW is not about equality. It is about superiority, and if you can't handle that you need to be superior and play at a superior level, to function as a team in the most anti-Rambo environment of MWO, and that not everybody gets a gold star....

...well, stop playing anything resembling a real PvP game. The pub queue is ready and waiting. It will cheerfully erase your failures with a fresh start every time you start a new game. There will be no public records showing a string of failures.

Or for that matter, your successes. But that's what CW allows. It very publicly displays superiority and dominance, inferiority and defeat. For weeks at a time. Months. It also neatly stamps the fact that disorganized PUGs are bad and that yes, those big ol' teams and units really ARE better than you.

If you don't want to face that reality, again- the pub queue is wide open. Play in the sandbox. There are no sharks and hungry things in there. CW players won't look down on you.

But please, stop trying to make CW into a participation gold-star game where nobody really loses and everybody wins. If that was the point, CW would simply have been another game mode in pub queue. Better to add modes to CW that give PUGs someplace to play and contribute on small-scale actions than to sit there dismantling the 48v48 we have now.

Frankly, we need both in CW. A place for units to be large-scale, and a place for PUGs to be small-scale, and have both make an impact on CW.

[Khobai]

Quote

That's the entire point. CW is not about equality. It is about superiority, and if you can't handle that you need to be superior and play at a superior level, to function as a team in the most anti-Rambo environment of MWO, and that not everybody gets a gold star....

then give me a 1v1 gamemode in CW. and ill be superior.

I dont like teammates because they always let you down. lol.

Its ridiculous to punish someone for wanting to be a lonewolf. You should not be forced to join a unit in order to contribute meaningfully to CW.

Edited by Khobai, 13 January 2016 - 08:12 PM.