778 replies to this topic

[N0MAD]

Sjorpha, on 19 January 2016 - 01:41 AM, said:

The basic claim I was debunking here was the one that the "bulk" of CW solo pugs are good players who play the game well. That is evidently not the case. Now I'm not saying that to insult anyone or to put personal value on being good at the game, but it's a fact that most solo puggers in CW play the game very badly. If that doesn't apply to you then it doesn't, good for you, but my unit is not consistently winning 48-6 against pug teams for no reason.

I want it to end, it's no fun. So I hope the queue split works. I'm not convinced it will and it might break the ****, but I sure as hell hope it works.

I liked your post, fair enough.
How much advantage do you think a Practised group all communicating has over a group of random players/teams half of them communicating and never having played together even if equally skilled individually, has?
No advantage, little or alot?

[The Basilisk]

I realy don't care a dime anymore about CW.
Since the release of CW phase one my computers performance degraded on CW maps after each and every patch. Tryed to install new and stuff...no result.
My Graphics and Prozessor idle at around 54% and I got punishing 15 to 18 frames less than in pug matches (32 to 45 frames not fast but ok still my pc idles away while framerate is low )

So...no CW for me atm.

[Sjorpha]

N0MAD, on 19 January 2016 - 02:17 AM, said:

I liked your post, fair enough.
How much advantage do you think a Practised group all communicating has over a group of random players/teams half of them communicating and never having played together even if equally skilled individually, has?
No advantage, little or alot?

That's a very interesting question, but it has several answers because the effect of unit coordination is different at different skill levels and range of skills across the team.

The following is me speculating freely of course, no science, but I think it's reasonable.

Example 1: All players on both teams pretty good.
There is some natural coordination that comes with simply being a decent CW player, it can be chalked down to an absence of basic mistakes. A good player will stick with the team without being told to, he will not poke alone and take bad trades, not rambo by himself through the gate, he will regroup rather than reinforce and obviously not do the most silly newbie things like shoot LRMs below 180m and so on.

A good player will also (usually) have some different mechs to pick that suits the map. And obviously talking to your team on top of that is part of being good at the game as well, so there will be a baseline of active coordination too (group dup, lets go in now and so on.)

In this example the importance of a unit is less than it's sometimes hyped up to, the unit may or may not be doing serious coordination at the time but assuming they do the main advantage will be calling targets and having a selected commander. It will most likely be a win, but probably not a stomp. Unit small to medium advantage depending on full tryhard mode or not.

Example 2: All players on both teams are bad.
Everyone will make basic mistakes and it will be playing like ****, but the unit will stay in a group while the pugs spread out and that alone will win them the match handily. Probably a stomp, but not a spawncamp level stomp. Unit fairly big advantage.

Example 3: Both teams have a big skill variation but equal skill total.
The bad players in the unit will listen to their good leaders and avoid basic mistakes, the bad pugs will likely ignore the good pugs and go die horribly instead of grouping up. This will be a convincing stomp, but the good pugs can have the highest scores in the whole match from carrying. Unit huge advantage.

Example 3 is the most likely scenario of course, along with the other two common possibilities good team vs. mixed pugs or mostly bad pugs which are the complete farming spawncamp level stomps.

Also worth noting that newbie pugs often listen more to the leader of a small group than to a single good solo player, therefore a small/medium group of good players + pugs can sometimes act as a mixed skill 12man and beat an average skill 12man. My personal solution to the CW stomps would be to strongly encourage units to drop more in small groups so there are less pure pug teams.

Edited by Sjorpha, 19 January 2016 - 04:45 AM.

[Galenit]

Sandpit, on 18 January 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

which is irrelevant since the split does nothing about groups. just tags

That would be another pgi ...
... adressing something by a bandaid that does not solve the coreproble.

JaxRiot, on 18 January 2016 - 07:34 PM, said:

And also, Russ said specifically that groups will not be able to drop in the Solo que (pug que). When asked if groups could drop in the Pug que he said specifically that they had learned their lesson ages ago with the Public que, and that it was all or nothing when separating groups from solo.

So, no.. Groups will not be able to que in the Solo que, unit tags or not.

I hope thats what happening, even if the original wording was saying something other.

Edited by Galenit, 19 January 2016 - 04:35 AM.

[JaxRiot]

Galenit, on 19 January 2016 - 04:34 AM, said:

That would be another pgi ...
... adressing something by a bandaid that does not solve the coreproble.


I hope thats what happening, even if the original wording was saying something other.

Which original wording are you referring to? Did you read it on Twitter or from someone here on the forums?

I ask because i have been reading Russ posts on Twitter and he has never said that groups could que in the pug que. In fact he said the exact opposite

Be careful what you see here on the forums. Lots of misinformation and exaggeration.

Russ is going to be talking about all of these changes in the next town hall so hopefully things will be made more clear

Edited by JaxRiot, 19 January 2016 - 06:18 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Hotthedd, on 18 January 2016 - 05:11 AM, said:

All of the factions in the same queue? Then what is the point of CW?

If we are going to get everyone in the same queues, but split between groups and solos, then all we would be getting is Quick Play with re-spawns.

..and nobody ever gets stomped in Quick Play, right?

That's where it's headed I reckon. The point of CW atm is farm noobs for LP. IF they make taking planets meaningful, then perhaps it will be more than quickplay with re-spawns, which is what it is now.

[Sandpit]

N0MAD, on 19 January 2016 - 01:14 AM, said:

Well no not really,WT arcade/realistic/Sim all have very different flight models/difficulty levels for a start.

and yet
as much WT as I've played
as many times as I've visited their forums
I dont' see players calmoring, QQing, and otherwise making alot of noise because one of those sections "isn't available" to casual players.

You don't see the scapegoating of groups and units there. You see them with a "hardcore" mode and "sim" modes designed to give those players that want it a harder challenge which is exactly how CW is set up from the quickplay queue.

If you're going to use comparisons from another game, you have to be prepared to use the ENTIRE game and how it's set up. You don't have "solo" players iN WT runnign around on their forums posting things like "Those dirty seal clubbers in units are "ruining" the game for everyone. This entire game should cater specifically to me and those players like me. No modes should not be able to play as a casual solo"

Wonder why that is?
Wonder why WT didn't just make every mode "arcade" mode?
Oh, well maybe because they don't cater exclusively to onr portion of the player population and change "their minds" about well this part of the game WAS supposed to be "hardcore", but hey, we'll just make everything arcade mode.

[Sandpit]

JaxRiot, on 18 January 2016 - 07:34 PM, said:

And also, Russ said specifically that groups will not be able to drop in the Solo que (pug que). When asked if groups could drop in the Pug que he said specifically that they had learned their lesson ages ago with the Public que, and that it was all or nothing when separating groups from solo.

So, no.. Groups will not be able to que in the Solo que, unit tags or not.

citation?
I talked with him directly on this and never saw anything like this mentioned. I'm pretty good at keeping up with his Twitter and never saw this mentioned at all. Can you link it?

[JaxRiot]

Sandpit, on 19 January 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

citation?
I talked with him directly on this and never saw anything like this mentioned. I'm pretty good at keeping up with his Twitter and never saw this mentioned at all. Can you link it?

First time trying to link a Tweet, hope I got it right

https://twitter.com/...744940311367680

There it is

The person Russ is responding to is requesting if small groups could be treated as Solo.

Russ responds by saying that they had learned their lesson long ago with the Public matches, and that it is all or nothing with separating groups from solo.

Soon after Russ bowed out of the conversation saying that they would talk about it in the next Town Hall

Edit- The next Town Hall is Jan 29th.

Edit 2- And btw. the separate ques are going to be for Solo players and Unit players. Not simply Pugs vs Units

https://twitter.com/...731178296578048

Edited by JaxRiot, 19 January 2016 - 11:52 AM.

[Sandpit]

JaxRiot, on 19 January 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

First time trying to link a Tweet, hope I got it right

https://twitter.com/...744940311367680

There it is

The person Russ is responding to is requesting if small groups could be treated as Solo.

Russ responds by saying that they had learned their lesson long ago with the Public matches, and that it is all or nothing with separating groups from solo.

Soon after Russ bowed out of the conversation saying that they would talk about it in the next Town Hall

Edit- The next Town Hall is Jan 29th.

Edit 2- And btw. the separate ques are going to be for Solo players and Unit players. Not simply Pugs vs Units

https://twitter.com/...731178296578048

based on that quote and the rest of that convo, Russ is referring specifically to the idea of leaving small units in with solos.

You have to read the context. I started that convo with Russ on Tiwtter IIRC based on a question I asked him. He's saying no units in the split queue period and using groups as an example of why they won't allow small units to stay in solo queue.

I think you're misunderstanding what he said and got it a bit out of context.

Again, nowhere has Russ said anything about removing groups from the new split queue in CW, just units with tags. Nothing else.

[JaxRiot]

Sandpit, on 19 January 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

based on that quote and the rest of that convo, Russ is referring specifically to the idea of leaving small units in with solos.

You have to read the context. I started that convo with Russ on Tiwtter IIRC based on a question I asked him. He's saying no units in the split queue period and using groups as an example of why they won't allow small units to stay in solo queue.

I think you're misunderstanding what he said and got it a bit out of context.

Again, nowhere has Russ said anything about removing groups from the new split queue in CW, just units with tags. Nothing else.

The entire conversation was for the separation of Solo Players and Unit Players ( read the very top of the second link)

here- https://twitter.com/...731178296578048

When asked about small groups (not a small Unit, a small Group) being able to join the Solo Que (first Link) , Russ says thats its all or nothing when separating Groups (not just Units.. Groups) from Solo.

here- https://twitter.com/...744940311367680

Its going to be a Solo que. Not a Pug que, and not a group que. Solo

He even specifically calls it a Solo que here- https://twitter.com/...741043941347329

Edit to add- You are right. Groups will not be taken away from the split ques. But they will only be in the Unit Que. Not the Solo Que.

Edited by JaxRiot, 19 January 2016 - 02:35 PM.

[Haakon Magnusson]

JaxRiot, on 19 January 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

Its going to be a Solo que. Not a Pug que, and not a group que. Solo

Somehow this is the sentiment I got from the stuff I read.

I wonder if this is somehow related to what they have envisioned for loyalists/loners with the upcoming changes, maybe they will form the bulk of cw meatgrinder with little planetary exchanges and then have mercs and loyalist units be the ones that actually spearhead the attacks forward as loyalists vote.


I maintain hopeful disposition.

[Sandpit]

JaxRiot, on 19 January 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

The entire conversation was for the separation of Solo Players and Unit Players ( read the very top of the second link)

here- https://twitter.com/...731178296578048

When asked about small groups (not a small Unit, a small Group) being able to join the Solo Que (first Link) , Russ says thats its all or nothing when separating Groups (not just Units.. Groups) from Solo.

here- https://twitter.com/...744940311367680

Its going to be a Solo que. Not a Pug que, and not a group que. Solo

He even specifically calls it a Solo que here- https://twitter.com/...741043941347329

no
it wasn't
since I was the one who started the conversation I think I would know lol

Again, you're misinterpreting what was said. The conversation was the one I started on Twitter with Russ. I mistakenly thought he meant group as well, turns out it, as it stands right now, is simply unit and not unit separation.

You can still group up, you just can't have tags on. Now you can keep arguing with the guy who actually tweeted Russ and got the conversation going, or you can take the first-hand information from one of the original parties in the original conversation. Russ and I went back and forth a couple of times on Twitter about it actually.

I'm just trying to correct some misinformation here because if you're basing your idea on this separation on your assumption that it separates solo players from PUGs, you're basing it on misinformation.

|EDIT:
Just to help clarify, in that particular response, the second one, Russ is using the term solo for non-unit players IE lone wolves, not players that PUG

Edited by Sandpit, 19 January 2016 - 02:38 PM.

[Lupis Volk]

Sandpit, on 19 January 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

based on that quote and the rest of that convo, Russ is referring specifically to the idea of leaving small units in with solos.

I wonder how small is small?

[Sandpit]

Lupis Volk, on 19 January 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:

I wonder how small is small?

1man
If you are part of a unit you will drop in unit queue
whether it's a man unit or 100 man unit

[JaxRiot]

Sandpit, on 19 January 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

no
it wasn't
since I was the one who started the conversation I think I would know lol

Again, you're misinterpreting what was said. The conversation was the one I started on Twitter with Russ. I mistakenly thought he meant group as well, turns out it, as it stands right now, is simply unit and not unit separation.

You can still group up, you just can't have tags on. Now you can keep arguing with the guy who actually tweeted Russ and got the conversation going, or you can take the first-hand information from one of the original parties in the original conversation. Russ and I went back and forth a couple of times on Twitter about it actually.

I'm just trying to correct some misinformation here because if you're basing your idea on this separation on your assumption that it separates solo players from PUGs, you're basing it on misinformation.

|EDIT:
Just to help clarify, in that particular response, the second one, Russ is using the term solo for non-unit players IE lone wolves, not players that PUG

I really doubt that I am misreading. To me those responses are very plain and direct.

I mean, he specifically said no Groups (even small ones) in Solo Que because they had learned their lesson from the Public Matches. Its all or nothing when separating them

But fair is fair. I posted the links that I feel support an actual solo que and not a pug que that allows grouping.

So now if you dont mind, please link where Russ says that Groups will be allowed in Solo que.

Edited by JaxRiot, 19 January 2016 - 02:54 PM.

[Sandpit]

JaxRiot, on 19 January 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

I really doubt that I am misreading. To me those responses are very plain and direct.

I mean, he specifically said no Groups (even small ones) in Solo Que because they had learned their lesson from the Public Matches. Its all or nothing when separating them

But fair is fair. I posted the links that I feel support an actual solo que and not a pug que that allows grouping.

So now if you dont mind, please link where Russ says that Groups will be allowed in Solo que.

no, he used the group in solo queue as an example of how they learned their lesson. No "small" units, like they originally planned "small" groups in the solo queue.

Now again, you can either read the entire convo start to finish yourself, get the entire context, or keep argiong with the guy who HAD the actual convo with Russ.

[pwnface]

Everyone seems really confused about the response from Russ via Twitter right now.

As far as I can tell, this is the information we have:

If you have a unit tag, you will be in the "unit" queue.
If you do not have a unit tag, you will be in the "solo" queue.
Groups are allowed in the "unit" queue
No groups are allowed in the "solo" queue.

What happens if you have no unit tag but want to play as a group in CW?
Well, there are really two options here:
1) They allow unit-less groups to be in the "unit" queue.
2) They don't allow unit-less groups to play in CW at all.

They definitely won't allow unit-less groups to play in CW "solo" queue.
The "solo" queue is for SOLO players without a unit ONLY.

Edited by pwnface, 19 January 2016 - 03:42 PM.

[JaxRiot]

Sandpit, on 19 January 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

no, he used the group in solo queue as an example of how they learned their lesson. No "small" units, like they originally planned "small" groups in the solo queue.

Now again, you can either read the entire convo start to finish yourself, get the entire context, or keep argiong with the guy who HAD the actual convo with Russ.

I did read it. Ive been reading it. From the very first time Mischief tweeted him about it and he responded that they are going to try separate ques.

Again.. I provided Links that show the ques will be Solo and Unit.

Here is where Russ specifically says Solo and Unit separation again - https://twitter.com/...731178296578048

And here is where he says that no groups will be allowed in Solo que because they learned their lesson with the Public matches again - https://twitter.com/...744940311367680

And here again is where he specifically calls it a Solo que - https://twitter.com/...741043941347329

You keep saying that Im taking what he is saying out of context, but its plain as day to me.

You also say that if anybody should know what he is saying then it should be you since you started the conversation, but youre the one who doesnt seem to know, and it wasnt you that started it. It was Mischief.

Edit- Unless you and Mischief are the same person maybe?

So again, you say that Russ never said that Groups could not drop in Solo que, I provided a Link that says he did.

You say that Russ says that Groups can drop in Solo que, then fine. Provide a link where he says it.

Or at least provide a link where he is at least implying that groups can drop in Solo que.

I bet you cant. Because there isnt one.

Prove me wrong

Edited by JaxRiot, 19 January 2016 - 04:24 PM.

[Sandpit]

pwnface, on 19 January 2016 - 03:40 PM, said:

1) They allow unit-less groups to be in the "unit" queue.

Later in a related conversation with another player, Russ specifically stated and SUGGESTED that they could form a 1man unit to drop in unit queue. NO units would be allowed. That's what he means by learned the lesson from the first solo and group queue separation when they originally allowed small groups into the solo queue.

That's what I mean. That one statement is being taken out of context from the entire conversation it was used in. Bish was involved in the 1man unit conversation IIRC as well. It all originated from me reposting my questions to Russ about the separation.