89 replies to this topic

[adamts01]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 04:29 AM, said:

Everyone is good with competition. What is not good is, in the context of your analogy, letting a high school team win the Super Bowl because they beat another high school team without ever having to play against an actual pro team. In anything involving competition you don't get to win the Super Bowl unless you play and beat a Super Bowl team. If you can win the Super Bowl by only playing against high school teams, why the **** wouldn't you just play high school teams even if you're a pro-grade player?

Very good point, and if CW evolves in to a huge, player driven thing, then I'll be on board with you. as for now, it's just another game mode. From my own experience dropping with a unit, CW is 90% seal clubbing and it sucked. I have hope for it though.

[MischiefSC]

adamts01, on 15 January 2016 - 04:37 AM, said:

Very good point, and if CW evolves in to a huge, player driven thing, then I'll be on board with you. as for now, it's just another game mode. From my own experience dropping with a unit, CW is 90% seal clubbing and it sucked. I have hope for it though.

I pug almost exclusively. I don't see a lot of seal clubbing. It's pretty rare and it's almost always pug on pug. If you always dropped with a unit all you saw was unit drops. Actual 12mans are like 1 in 20, if even that. I haven't seen a 12man in days on either my main account in Davion space or my alt account in Clan space.

Most amazing option?

Make 4v4 pug only. With only 4 players per team and an intentional 90 second 'delay' in population counts for the 4v4 queue you could make sync dropping way more difficult. You also make it minimally profitable as the most you can 'farm' is 4 players.

Require a unit tag to play in the 48 v 48. 12v12 with 4 respawns hugely, hugely rewards communication and coordination. Without a matchmaker you're going to have the same one-sided clubbings you have now. You're also going to see more of it in the unit queue, which will drive people out of the casual units that make up a big part of the population.

Most drops on any front are either small casual units or mixed units. They're going to get stomped by the top-tier competitive teams. Anyone they play will be. Do we put in a matchmaker so if you're a good team you only play good teams? That's a doomed idea and the opposite of what CW is there for. Those big units are the big guns in wars between factions and acting like their being good at the game is some mean trick they're trying to pull to abuse everyone else is not just absurd but self-defeating.

[adamts01]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

I pug almost exclusively. I don't see a lot of seal clubbing. It's pretty rare and it's almost always pug on pug. If you always dropped with a unit all you saw was unit drops. Actual 12mans are like 1 in 20, if even that. I haven't seen a 12man in days on either my main account in Davion space or my alt account in Clan space.

That's good that you mostly run in to pugs as a pug team, nothing much should change for you then. From the unit side of things, I quit because we ran in to nothing but pugs also. It was a straight up race to see who could get the most kills. I like good fights, win or lose, and there were few to be found in CW. This might change that.

[wanderer]

This to be honest.

4v4 should be "solo" only, 48v48 should stay as it is.

Otherwise I can guarantee you'll be seeing people gravitating away from using unit-tagged accounts to do most of the heavy lifting in CW...because you'll get to actually play by using a tagless account and doing the exact same thing you did before.

Unit accounts will literally be the flag to claim a world after you've pushed it 99% of the way in "solo" queue while dropping in the same groups with the same TS doing the same things, only without that little doohickey on the front of your name.

The people who stick to unit tagged accounts will be in the slow lane for matches and frequently stuck with ghost drops as a result.

[Peter2k]

After piling restriction after restriction on units (max size, costs of having big unit, no advantages compared to just pugging, and what other things people can be so creative about to restrict people that simpky talk to each other rather than ignoring each other)

People will rue the day when those units figure out they can just disband/leave the unit, stay on the same TS and attack or defend the same planet at the same time as individuals


I always believed you have to incentivice people, not punish them for playing a team game as a team
I barely saw anything how groups should be incentiviced to paly along with all those restrictions
Whats the upside for a unit?

[Amsro]

I have to say that with CW3 it will all be different anyhow.

This is just the last hurrah for CW in it's current version.

Unless there are a lot of solo tag players CW will be a terrible wait for 7-11 man groups.

[MechWarrior3671771]

MischiefSC, on 15 January 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

will drive people out of the casual units that make up a big part of the population.

Most drops on any front are either small casual units or mixed units. They're going to get stomped by the top-tier competitive teams. Anyone they play will be. Do we put in a matchmaker so if you're a good team you only play good teams? That's a doomed idea and the opposite of what CW is there for. Those big units are the big guns in wars between factions and acting like their being good at the game is some mean trick they're trying to pull to abuse everyone else is not just absurd but self-defeating.

Hang on a sec -

When I complained that pitting solo noobs up against the likes of a 228 premade was stupid, I was told the solos should learn to play and join a unit.

Now I'm hearing that units are going to disband because they will have to play the likes of 228? Huh?

[MechWarrior3671771]

Peter2k, on 15 January 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

I always believed you have to incentivice people, not punish them for playing a team game as a team. I barely saw anything how groups should be incentiviced to paly along with all those restrictions. Whats the upside for a unit?

From what little intel we have, it looks like PGI *is* going to incentivize players for playing CW with a unit.

I advise patience until we know more. What you are getting right now is mostly fear-mongering from people that just found out their Easy Mode Farmville is going to get nerfed. Ignore it.

[Lykaon]

Soultraxx, on 15 January 2016 - 03:29 AM, said:

I agrre with some of what you say about transient players.

Moving further down - Im sure a drop commanders going to love having to keep repeating himself or stop fighting to type out an order because I cant hear what is being said.
You know what its like having to type in the heat of the action - its not feasible.

Moving further down. Yep it only takes a few seconds to load TS. But how many drop commanders or team members are going to like team members with young families having to go afk because their son/ daughter/ wife/ husband needs them for one of a hundred things that pop up each day?

You will not need to worry about specifics of a given order if your unit functions like most do. You buddy up with another team mate who has a mech with a similar role to yours and you just do what they do. Shoot at what they shoot at and move where they move.Without directly hearing an order you can still execute the order. You and they gain all the benifit of a cooperative team member.Dispite how much many players like to spin it this game is not rocket science or even all that complex a basic awareness and the ability to pay a bit of attention is all you really need.

Many units have players with family responsibilities.Maybe some of the super hard core units may get a twist in their panties over this but seriously,If you have that much demand placed on your time you will not be in one of those super comp units.You will be in a far more casual unit.

And of course if you have such stringent demands placed on your time that you lack the ability to play a few matches back to back then honestly this sort of player is not suited to CW at all. Those matches can take tripple (or more) the time of a standard match.If you can't have at least 1 hour of free time then you really shouldn't be to worried about anything but solo puggie queues and 5 minute skirmish matches anyhow because you lack the ability to actually do anything else with the limited free time you have.

Anyone incapable of doing what I have outlined is pretty exceptional to the norm and as such,should not be the basis of a major game alteration that effects the majority.There is a reason that most pairs of scissors are righties.

[wanderer]

What I don't think people realize is that rendering someone capable of playing even LESS CW than the already sluggish queue is only going to serve to drive people out of CW, or at the least out of playing with a unit tag.

You can get away with it in public queues, but CW in Liao is already a matter of mixed small unit + PUGs to form 12-mans. This will change it to having to de-unit tag regular units in order to actually attack or defend with any level of effectiveness.

[Lykaon]

Fen Tetsudo, on 15 January 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

Hang on a sec -

When I complained that pitting solo noobs up against the likes of a 228 premade was stupid, I was told the solos should learn to play and join a unit.

Now I'm hearing that units are going to disband because they will have to play the likes of 228? Huh?

Isn't it more along the lines of this...

the solo noobs have pretty much the rest of the ENTIRE FRICKEN GAME! yep there is a solo queue for just them. Yep there is a PSR system in place that keeps the worst players from having to fight the best players.They can even "vote" what map they will play the next mindless devoid of strategy skirmish on. Bottom line is THEY HAVE BEEN PANDERED TO!

They want something they get it and it's ussually in some way detrimental to player units.

Now they want CW! They want spoon fed derping in every aspect of MWo and sadly they will get it.

[Satan n stuff]

Kilo 40, on 14 January 2016 - 11:31 PM, said:

because they're not good against other units. They're only good against unorganized pugs with players from across the globe speaking 8 different languages.

They don't want a challenge. they want EZ mode. This is no different tan a tier 1 player upset that he can't play against tier 5 players.

[Djinnhammer]

Kilo 40, on 14 January 2016 - 11:31 PM, said:

because they're not good against other units. They're only good against unorganized pugs with players from across the globe speaking 8 different languages.

They don't want a challenge. they want EZ mode. This is no different tan a tier 1 player upset that he can't play against tier 5 players.

One question I pose to you.
Read what you just said, carefully.
Why is what you said any different from a player not wanting to teamwork in a team oriented game? Because following your logic, pugs are only good vs other utterly anti teamwork people. They only get upset when they have to teamwork and talk.
Sounds silly right? but that's what your logic provides.
But in your eyes, it's great small casual units get thrown against larger pro units. It's also great in your eyes unit tagged guys who need to drop SOLO for whatever reason (hint:same wife/kids/real life reasons pro solos refuse to unit) get FORCED to fight groups.
In your eyes solo anti socials get rewarded for poor attitude and others who group/talk/socialize could potentially get punished.

When the inittal cause of all the issues was people refusing to be social and teamwork, to even the most base level. The ironic thing is, Russ is rewarding you for being like that. Do you honestly think that's right?

[sycocys]

Whats this your 3rd new thread on the topic in 24 hours...

You sure you actually want competition in your CW or are you really just after keeping the pug farm alive?

[wanderer]

This won't foster competition. It'll mean two smaller, slower-to-fill queues, fewer games, and creative alt-gaming of the results to maximize results.

[Munin]

Quote

Moving further down. Yep it only takes a few seconds to load TS. But how many drop commanders or team members are going to like team members with young families having to go afk because their son/ daughter/ wife/ husband needs them for one of a hundred things that pop up each day?

while it depends on the group and the event if an RSVPed match, to my knowledge most groups follow a 'this is a game, real life takes priority' attitude. only the hardest of the hardcore I imagine may not be. I know my unit has folks hop on and off all the time at a moments notice when kids need stuff, wife/husband aggro, and so on, and most of those I've met in other groups have the same attitude.

[Duke Nedo]

adamts01, on 15 January 2016 - 04:37 AM, said:

Very good point, and if CW evolves in to a huge, player driven thing, then I'll be on board with you. as for now, it's just another game mode. From my own experience dropping with a unit, CW is 90% seal clubbing and it sucked. I have hope for it though.

Exactly this, there is no superbowl to win. If pgi completes one I am all for no filters and no matchmaking.

[Duke Nedo]

Duke Nedo, on 15 January 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

Exactly this, there is no superbowl to win. If pgi completes one I am all for no filters and no matchmaking.

If I may also an addendum: One doesn't win the superbowl by beating as many highschool teams as possible, one wins it by beating the second best team in a glorious final. Imo that's exactly what PGI needs to have in mind when they redesign the way CW is handled. Would be awesome if they could achieve the same kind of nerve-killing exciting determining battles between the top contenders... I'd like to buy beer and watch it...

[sycocys]

Duke Nedo, on 15 January 2016 - 06:57 AM, said:

If I may also an addendum: One doesn't win the superbowl by beating as many highschool teams as possible, one wins it by beating the second best team in a glorious final. Imo that's exactly what PGI needs to have in mind when they redesign the way CW is handled. Would be awesome if they could achieve the same kind of nerve-killing exciting determining battles between the top contenders... I'd like to buy beer and watch it...

Ding. What it really boils down to at the end of the day is that most of the players clamoring on about hard mode don't really want hard mode. They want 99% easy pug farming and a 1% chance at having to face off against another team.
There was plenty of time and is plenty of in game option/availability to coordinate competition if that's what they actually wanted - yet a fair potion of these units spend time creating treaties with one another so they don't have to fight which was extremely apparent when CW population was at its low point after Tuk1 - teams couldn't find matches because they flat out refused to fight each other, then blamed it on PGI.

And the clamoring on about the "tools" for pugs to make groups - well there's plenty of tools to make it easier for teams to fight teams and that's been around since the start. Teams and units failed to strive for competition so PGI has found it necessary to take some measures make that happen.

Edited by sycocys, 15 January 2016 - 07:11 AM.

[MechWarrior3671771]

MischiefSC, on 14 January 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

COMMUNICATION AND COORDINATION ARE NOT EXPLOITS OR BULLYING

But no one has said that communication & coordination are exploits or bullying.

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Let people who just want to pug, never want to communicate or coordinate play in their own queue.

More strawmen. Just because solo noobs are bad at communicating and coordinating play doesn't mean that they don't want to. Its like you are angry at them for not getting to your level of play overnight or something.

Quote

Pretending though that by not sucking at the game and being able to communicate and coordinate with other people everyone else is just bullies and meanies is the strawman.

Again, who is pretending this? I've been following most these threads, and I don't recall anyone every claiming that communication and coordination is bullying. Can you cite a quote or something?