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Structure Quirks...

Balance Metagame

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#101 EAP10

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 07:49 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 17 January 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

Never seen CGBI blink when encountering CWDG. On my IS account, I haven't been part of any active unit at any point during CW, and have always been a filler member on drops... and in CW have never lost of CWDG I've been in PUG CW drops where we beat DG.. Seldom have lost to any Wolves, truth to tell, that weren't IS Mercs in Wolf's clothes.



I remember joking around with my CGBI mates whenever we faced CWDG that we were beating up puppies.

#102 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 07:51 AM

View PostEAP10, on 18 January 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

I remember joking around with my CGBI mates whenever we faced CWDG that we were beating up puppies.

so does Illya.

#103 EAP10

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 07:59 AM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 18 January 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

so does Illya.


;)

#104 Pjwned

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 09:05 AM

View PostGyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 07:41 PM, said:

The ST speed loss penalty is complete BS, has no backing in lore or TT, and is an undue penalty on the bad robots. Not to mention it precludes brawling entirely because the second you lose a ST you are essentially a free morsel for the mechs that just shot your ST off.

Think about that...your mech is already now crippled...and your movement is also crippled, so you cannot even maneuver safely out of harm's way? I say a stiffer heat penalty or something else makes a lot more sense than killing the one thing that actually gave the bad clan robots something of a fighting chance.


There was already a heatsink penalty in place for losing 20% of the engine, but it didn't do anything because the penalty was so small, and keep in mind that the penalty for losing your side torso is separate from losing 20% of the engine.

Do you want a giant heat penalty instead? Losing 20% of engine heatsinks didn't do enough, so do you want it to be 50% of engine heatsinks lost instead? That doesn't seem appropriate to just stack a huge penalty in 1 area, and I would think that being able to use your weapons without instantly overheating (with a reasonable movement penalty added on top of that) is preferable to not being able to sustain any firepower due to losing at least half of your heatsinks (while retaining full speed), but I guess you might feel differently.

Clans need an appropriate penalty for losing 20% of the engine and the previous penalty didn't cut it, it's really pretty simple in that regard.

View PostGyrok, on 17 January 2016 - 08:22 PM, said:


How about that 5SS tbolt?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...03a80edad550afd

Or the myriad STK builds with STD engines?

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e42d772aa70e8f1

The issue is...strong structure quirks with STD engines are too strong.


It's more that the quirks are too strong whether or not a STD engine is being used, because that STD engine durability comes at a high cost, but that still does mean those quirks are too strong yes.

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Clan ST speed loss penalty is too much when a mech like a BJ1X can soak a 45pt alpha strike and keep ticking...with an XL engine


No, the speed penalty for clans isn't too much, it's the Blackjack's quirks that are too much. Some mechs that feature completely ridiculous quirks is not an excuse to campaign for a lesser penalty on cXL engines or whatever else, it's the ridiculous quirks that need to be toned down.

Quote

The tech tree has to be balanced before the mechs can be.

PGI refuses to add the missing high tech IS weapons and advance to 3060-ish.

ER lasers, UACs, RACs, LBXs, SSRMs, XPLs, etc. would go a long way to solving these issues.


I actually agree that newer tech should be added, but only assuming that it was properly balanced, such as x-pulse lasers having standard laser range but also being exceptionally hot as noted on Sarna.

#105 Wraith31

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:38 PM

View PostEtgfrog, on 18 January 2016 - 06:21 AM, said:

You know...this is such a hilariously bad comment. I've played clan mechs and I've still put out plenty of damage after losing a side torso in them. On average when I've lost a side torso I'll still do an extra 100 damage with the mech. That is including the times when I've died shortly after and the times I've continued to fight the rest of the match. But as for the expected callout of why I'm relevant, I'm just some guy who will bring an urbanmech into cw and pull 400 damage.


Anecdotal evidence is certainly scientific...and always reliable. Especially from people wearing inner sphere faction tags...

#106 Wraith31

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:42 PM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 17 January 2016 - 09:23 PM, said:

Different strengths and weaknesses... Dires can put significantly more damage down range, but are sluggish. An Atlas is (finally) the brawler king it should be.


Not to put too fine a point on it...but a UAC5/UAC10 DW is capable of sustained DPS numbers in the range of ~20.

Considering that you could not burn down an Atlas fast enough up close is pretty staggering. Especially considering Atlases were already the best 100 ton assault for brawling before...the structure quirks on the Atlas are not bad, and mobility quirks alone are not bad, but both is becoming a bit much.

#107 Haakon Magnusson

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:45 PM

View PostKhobai, on 16 January 2016 - 08:12 PM, said:


how exactly? the only way I can see to "fix" the problem is to make the IS and clan tech bases equal.

that means nerfing clan weapons down to the same level as IS weapons. And it means buffing ISXL to the same level as CXL.

by doing that you remove the need to use quirks for balancing.


Actually funny enough, to get things on equal footing clan weapons need to made worse,because tonnage/crits. Somehow clan quirk calls conveniently forget the cirt/tonnage stuff.

#108 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:49 PM

View PostWraith31, on 18 January 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:


Not to put too fine a point on it...but a UAC5/UAC10 DW is capable of sustained DPS numbers in the range of ~20.

Considering that you could not burn down an Atlas fast enough up close is pretty staggering. Especially considering Atlases were already the best 100 ton assault for brawling before...the structure quirks on the Atlas are not bad, and mobility quirks alone are not bad, but both is becoming a bit much.

best 100 brawler before? Perhaps..though that has more to do with how feeble brawling has been, and the lack of competition for that...

#109 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:53 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 18 January 2016 - 02:49 PM, said:

best 100 brawler before? Perhaps..though that has more to do with how feeble brawling has been, and the lack of competition for that...

Well he is right, it has always been a good brawler, the problem however is that brawling as a strategy was never worth it before because SRMs weren't good enough and the best brawlers weren't durable enough to successfully push a team without melting.

#110 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:54 PM

View PostQuicksilver Kalasa, on 18 January 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

Well he is right, it has always been a good brawler, the problem however is that brawling as a strategy was never worth it before because SRMs weren't good enough and the best brawlers weren't durable enough to successfully push a team without melting.

hence my comment on the feebleness of brawling. Being the best of the Bads ain't really a lot to aspire too.

Atlas still has plenty of weaknesses, but if one supports it, it can at least tank now, like it should.

#111 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:54 PM

View PostWraith31, on 18 January 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:


Not to put too fine a point on it...but a UAC5/UAC10 DW is capable of sustained DPS numbers in the range of ~20.

Considering that you could not burn down an Atlas fast enough up close is pretty staggering. Especially considering Atlases were already the best 100 ton assault for brawling before...the structure quirks on the Atlas are not bad, and mobility quirks alone are not bad, but both is becoming a bit much.


Well if you assume the Atlas will just stand there then there wouldn't be an issue. It is the fact that the Atlas can alpha and twist to spread damage. I wasn't even referring to close range, I was referring to point blank, city fighting, where extra speed and maneuvering through buildings is required. At 200-300 meters, the Dire is gonna do some serious damage.. it doesn't take much to shred an Atlas' side torso with all that dakka. When reduced to a single AC20, an Atlas is easily manageable.

Before the requirkening, a Dire didn't need to fear an Atlas up close. Now they do.

#112 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 18 January 2016 - 02:55 PM

Misread where you pointed out how feeble brawling was prior, my bad.

#113 Gyrok

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 05:59 AM

View PostGas Guzzler, on 18 January 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:


Well if you assume the Atlas will just stand there then there wouldn't be an issue. It is the fact that the Atlas can alpha and twist to spread damage. I wasn't even referring to close range, I was referring to point blank, city fighting, where extra speed and maneuvering through buildings is required. At 200-300 meters, the Dire is gonna do some serious damage.. it doesn't take much to shred an Atlas' side torso with all that dakka. When reduced to a single AC20, an Atlas is easily manageable.

Before the requirkening, a Dire didn't need to fear an Atlas up close. Now they do.


Before the quirkening, the DW needed to fear an Atlas on the flank under 300m.

Now, with super structure quirked, tight spread SRM toting Atlases with ECM that run 60 kph versus the 50 kph in the DW that has gimped twist...it is not even a fight up close. Before, the DW had to be able to maneuver well enough to get 2-3 volleys off to drop an Atlas...now...a DW has no chance unless the Atlas pilot is brain dead.

Edited by Gyrok, 19 January 2016 - 05:59 AM.


#114 pattonesque

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 08:02 AM

View PostGyrok, on 19 January 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:


Before the quirkening, the DW needed to fear an Atlas on the flank under 300m.

Now, with super structure quirked, tight spread SRM toting Atlases with ECM that run 60 kph versus the 50 kph in the DW that has gimped twist...it is not even a fight up close. Before, the DW had to be able to maneuver well enough to get 2-3 volleys off to drop an Atlas...now...a DW has no chance unless the Atlas pilot is brain dead.


and the DWF wins in every other scenario lol

IS so OP

#115 Wraith31

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 08:18 AM

View Postpattonesque, on 19 January 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:


and the DWF wins in every other scenario lol

IS so OP


Except against aggressive positioning/repositioning...

Except against lights...

Except under 300m to any big alpha boat

Except to any brawling medium


Can we change your overly abused blanket statement to more accurately reflect the truth?

Quote

and the DWF wins in every other scenario lol where someone is in position in front of them, in cone of fire at 400M or more, and the DW is not required to emerge or return to cover.

IS so OP


Fixed! Posted Image

Edited by Wraith31, 19 January 2016 - 08:19 AM.


#116 pattonesque

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 08:27 AM

View PostWraith31, on 19 January 2016 - 08:18 AM, said:


Except against aggressive positioning/repositioning...

Except against lights...

Except under 300m to any big alpha boat

Except to any brawling medium


Can we change your overly abused blanket statement to more accurately reflect the truth?

[/font]

Fixed! Posted Image



hey if you march your DWF out in the open like a Bad and then get cored by 12 other robots or are too panicked to fight a light, my sympathies broheim

also DWF losing a straight-up fight to a brawling medium, maybe if you can't aim that big ol' alpha, then sure

#117 Wraith31

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 09:03 AM

View Postpattonesque, on 19 January 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:



hey if you march your DWF out in the open like a Bad and then get cored by 12 other robots or are too panicked to fight a light, my sympathies broheim

also DWF losing a straight-up fight to a brawling medium, maybe if you can't aim that big ol' alpha, then sure


"March right out into the open" is the same as "emerge from cover", because the DWF moving anywhere is a march.

I can fight lights in assault mechs...but now it does not require an equal skill pilot to kill you in a DWF.

No brawling medium takes a straight up fight man, you should know that. I mean, no mech pilot, period, should take a straight up fight, ever.

Edited by Wraith31, 19 January 2016 - 09:03 AM.


#118 Pariah Devalis

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 09:09 AM

View Postpattonesque, on 19 January 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:



hey if you march your DWF out in the open like a Bad and then get cored by 12 other robots or are too panicked to fight a light, my sympathies broheim

also DWF losing a straight-up fight to a brawling medium, maybe if you can't aim that big ol' alpha, then sure


DWF turn like a mountain, so should any intelligent medium or light get around the DWF, it is basically game over unless that Dire can back himself up against a wall and get some friendly support. I've long since lost count at how many times I've approached a DWF from the side in a far lighter mech and just demolished it, since once one side torso is wrecked - and you can wreck it quickly even by yourself - the DWF is forced into a defensive posture and packing only as much firepower at that point as a mech half its size, with only 1/4 of the maneuverability.

It isn't always a matter of your position in a DWF, the enemy can reposition, too. If I know there is a DWF around a corner, I sure as hell won't be going right at him. I'll either go around behind him or, if I have jump jets, scale his cover, get above him, and laugh my *** off as I start pounding the mech to scrap - and if he spots me, I can just jump over him, behind him, and stay behind him before his agonizingly slow turning speed allows him to accomodate for my movements. By far, the DWF is a mech that requires the most support from allies in the assault class. Bar none.

It is also able to bring firepower that is practically unmatched in a specific direction. It's a mobile defensive array that gets set up to protect one angle, and one angle only. Anything else degrades its capabilities tremendously.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 January 2016 - 09:13 AM.


#119 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 09:15 AM

View PostPariah Devalis, on 19 January 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:


DWF turn like a mountain, so should any intelligent medium or light get around the DWF, it is basically game over unless that Dire can back himself up against a wall and get some friendly support. I've long since lost count at how many times I've approached a DWF from the side in a far lighter mech and just demolished it, since once one side torso is wrecked - and you can wreck it quickly even by yourself - the DWF is forced into a defensive posture and packing only as much firepower at that point as a mech half its size.

It isn't always a matter of your position in a DWF, the enemy can reposition, too. If I know there is a DWF around a corner, I sure as hell won't be going right at him. I'll either go around behind him or, if I have jump jets, scale his cover, get above him, and laugh my *** off as I start pounding the mech to scrap - and if he spots me, I can just jump over him, behind him, and stay behind him before his agonizingly slow turning speed allows him to accomodate for my movements. By far, the DWF is a mech that requires the most support from allies in the assault class. Bar none.

It is also able to bring firepower that is practically unmatched in a specific direction. It's a mobile defensive array that gets set up to protect one angle, and one angle only. Anything else degrades its capabilities tremendously.

Well, HALF a direwolf is still more firepower than many Heavy mechs pack. But otherwise, this is true. And probably how it should be. When a DWF or two are supported, they are almost unstoppable. But like any massive gun carriage, they need that support against more mobile opponents.

The issue is if they are mobile enough to be "good" as an unsupported PUG, in most hands, then they will be unstoppable deathstars in an organized and supported setting.

#120 Scout Derek

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 11:28 AM

Sometimes I wonder why more reports pop up over the weekend than they do on the weekdays....

I thought it'd be something else, like free time, but that's not it.

I'm going to have "fun" reading all of this...

thanks guys.... ;-;

(Scrubbing posts and will now work on the forums while at the break here at work...)





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