92 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Not quite, especially on the Clan side.

IS omnis will also bring a different flavor.

[Bud Crue]

I don't think new weapons are the answer or that the current weapons are the problem. Its the ability to customize without limit.
One way to address this:
I recall seeing threads where someone proposed hard point specific nerfs and buffs (E.g for the Warhammer you would say only gain the 50% PPC velocity buff if the weapon were mounted in the arms, etc.). I think if we made hard points specific or merely advantageous to specific weapons that would go a long way to avoiding (or at least controlling) power creep and making each mech feel unique (even if you want to customize it). It could also be used to encourage "stock" loads or whatever and help dictate the use of new weapons as they are introduced.

[LordNothing]

i am totally for new weapons. naysayers who always bring up the old worn out "weapons will break balence" bs are completely missing the point. every time you add an asset it has an effect on balance, be it mechs or maps or game modes. you will never reach balance nirvana, there will always be niches where performance is superior with certain builds. you can get it to the point where the difference between an optimal (so called "meta" build) and any other random build is not very much. enough where the esports crowd will probibly use it but everyone else can get away running what they want.

but we have an established baseline, and it does shift around with quirks and weapon balance tweaks, it is not a static entity. but you can use weapons that are considered to be well balanced as the base line for new weapons. come up with some new behaviors for things like mrms and racs. then go back and rebalance old things that diverge from the baseline.

for a release model i would love to see stand alone weapon packs. some will cry pay2win but if they are balanced then they wont be. packs would have a theme, like sniper pack, or brawler pack, clan and is versions of each, and would come with weapons (2 each for heavy weapons, up to 8 each for smaller weapons), modules (unlock required or might come with the first level unlock or a block of gxp) and ammo. you would be permitted to use them on any mechs that you own. you might also make weapons available for mc on a per weapon basis, weapons come with a couple tons of ammo if needed, but additional ammo would also cost mc and you dont get the other goodies.

another idea is to include them with new mechs. that way you could release one or two weapons at a time. and balance them as the mechs transition to cbill purchase. this would prevent what happened with the clans where a whole lot of new weapons came out overnight. you ended up with a lot of underperforming weapons and a lot of overperformers too. coming out a few at a time allows more attention to detail and better balance.

Edited by LordNothing, 20 January 2016 - 08:06 AM.

[mogs01gt]

It would be nice if we could get MRMs. But I dont see much benefit since they would have less damage than SRMs.

[GRiPSViGiL]

They jumped the shark several mech packs ago.

[jonfett]

Juodas Varnas, on 20 January 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

Which is exactly why we need QUADS.
It's something completely different from anything in the game currently!

Then we can have AT-AT's on Hoth (Polar Highlands).

[LordNothing]

mogs01gt, on 20 January 2016 - 07:55 AM, said:

It would be nice if we could get MRMs. But I dont see much benefit since they would have less damage than SRMs.

they would be fast srms that work at moderate range.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tom Sawyer, on 20 January 2016 - 04:28 AM, said:

So many of us are rocking our new warhammers. Just like we rocked the marauders. And so on.

Some us are trying to stay lore purists. PPCs as per lore. Others are searching for the perfect meta. Most DPS. Built for this map.

However my point is we keeping getting new mechs. We keep slapping on the same weapons. At some point when you have over a hundred mechs many start to blur together.

Some say the timeline is currently 3050, or 51, or even 52.

I know mechs sell. And this game needs the money from those mech sales to keep the servers alive. Also there are many many fixes the game needs particularly in CW.

But even table top had to evolve. IS saw the clans, saw the new weapons, saw many balance issues created some which still linger to this day.

However I am just curious to know others feel? Should PGI consider adding in new weapons by advancing the time a few years? This would introduce new mech possibilities too. Or should they really buckle down and fix what we have before introducing new weapons which will lead to new variations on the mechs we already have?

We are, but they need to actually get things sorted out better before adding more. I would be all for a push to 3060 or so in timeline maybe the last quarter of this year, beginning of 2017. Let them finish the current CW work, etc. Remember how long it took for them to actually get the Clans rolling? It might not be quite as involved but it will take a fair bit of planning.

Also, I would rather see them get the PvE rolling. First. Then add more stuff after that gets moving along.

Plus, we really need some sort of stable foundation. After all, part of the "sameness" (which always existed in Btech, too, at least once there was more than 30 mechs) is also due to the imbalance causing such huge gaps between Meta and Not Meta.

Don't fix that, and even with "more options" we won't really see more variety, ya know?

so for me?

#3060for2017

Anyone want's to campaign for a reasonable shift to a new timeline point I will happily back that. I have just been against the very demanding manner in which certain parties have pushed an agenda.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 January 2016 - 08:37 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

I feel like the IS has been at saturation point a long time ago - about a year ago, honestly, with the possible exceptions of the WHM and MAD, as they were needed solid heavy mech options that do not, strictly, require an energy dominated loadout.

However, as far as the Clans are concerned, due to the various locked equipment and fixed engine sizes, I don't think the Clans have reached saturation yet. A Fire Falcon, which we don't have, would play very differently to a Mist Lynx, which we have. A Night Gyr, which we don't have, would play differently to a Timber Wolf, which we have. A Viper would play differently to a Pouncer, which would also play differently to a Coyotl, none of which we have and all three of which would play differently to all current Clan mediums. (However, the Black Lanner would just be an even worse Shadow Cat - it has practically no pod space and no jump jets. lololol)

I'm all for advancing the timeline eventually. If we can pound out the good and unique Clan mechs out fast. At that point, there would be enough variety and tonnage options we could start to advance things again. Say, an all Medium Clan Omnipack, followed by another IIC pack and a classic 1/1/1/1 Omni pack. That would probably put us about where we need to be on the Clan front.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 January 2016 - 08:40 AM.

[pbiggz]

IS ER small/medium lasers
IS Streak SRM 4/6
IS UAC 2/10/20
IS LBX 2/5/20
IS MRMs
IS Light PPCs
IS Snub Nosed PPCs

Clan ATMs
Clan Heavy Lasers

Bring in these tech 2 weapons.

Also its funny how civil this thread is, since every time imperius ever made a thread to the same effect his fan club came in force.

[Pariah Devalis]

pbiggz, on 20 January 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

Also its funny how civil this thread is, since every time imperius ever made a thread to the same effect his fan club came in force.

It's the delivery. Like I said, he is coming off, whether intentional or not, as petulant about it. It really works against him, which is why I suggested to him that he reign it in a bit. A suggestion he flat out refused. It helps arguments when things are kept civil and logical, or as civil and logical as can be expected on the internet.

It's ok to disagree. Disagreeing with someone is not attacking someone, unless you buy into that new age ultra PC safe space BS. It's just all about how you handle disagreement.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 January 2016 - 08:48 AM.

[pbiggz]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 January 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

It's the delivery. Like I said, he is coming off, whether intentional or not, as petulant about it. It really works against him, which is why I suggested to him that he reign it in a bit. A suggestion he flat out refused.

Because the same thing happens every time. There was a time when he was civil on the forums. Its hard not to be petulant when the same dozen or so people camp your threads to tell you your wrong, and do it for months on end.

[Pariah Devalis]

pbiggz, on 20 January 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

Because the same thing happens every time. There was a time when he was civil on the forums. Its hard not to be petulant when the same dozen or so people camp your threads to tell you your wrong, and do it for months on end.

Oh, I'm sure it's frustrating, but this is the internet. People will always argue. If your argument cannot stand attacks on its logical foundations, while it might not be a reason to discard the idea altogether it might be a reason to consider revisions to it.

Edit: Case in point, I disagree heavily with Bishop's notion that UAC jam should be RNG, and he disagrees strongly that it should be a barrel heat system like in other FPS. We both have our reasons for disliking the other approach, but we can and have discussed it with cool heads, and I've even made modifications to my standpoint based on his perspective.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 20 January 2016 - 08:52 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

pbiggz, on 20 January 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

IS ER small/medium lasers
IS Streak SRM 4/6
IS UAC 2/10/20
IS LBX 2/5/20
IS MRMs
IS Light PPCs
IS Snub Nosed PPCs

Clan ATMs
Clan Heavy Lasers

Bring in these tech 2 weapons.

Also its funny how civil this thread is, since every time imperius ever made a thread to the same effect his fan club came in force.

perhaps if he tried a little more level headed approach, didn't take every disagreement as a personal attack...and TBH had not waved such a paper thin and obvious agenda behind his campaign?

The fact is, as Pariah pointed out we realyl AREN'T ready...yet. But if it became a focus for PGI, there is no reason we couldn't tune it up to BE ready in a reasonable span of time.

Something I've said from the get go. Along with the need to actually solidify the foundation fully before trying to build on top.

[Juodas Varnas]

jonfett, on 20 January 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Then we can have AT-AT's on Hoth (Polar Highlands).

Mhm.
The Goliath would be pretty cool to have.
(Though i prefer the Scorpion)

[pbiggz]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 January 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

perhaps if he tried a little more level headed approach, didn't take every disagreement as a personal attack...and TBH had not waved such a paper thin and obvious agenda behind his campaign?

The fact is, as Pariah pointed out we realyl AREN'T ready...yet. But if it became a focus for PGI, there is no reason we couldn't tune it up to BE ready in a reasonable span of time.

Something I've said from the get go. Along with the need to actually solidify the foundation fully before trying to build on top.

And the point im making is that the foundation can't be made stable if you have half a foundation.

[Bishop Steiner]

pbiggz, on 20 January 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:

Because the same thing happens every time. There was a time when he was civil on the forums. Its hard not to be petulant when the same dozen or so people camp your threads to tell you your wrong, and do it for months on end.

Except the reason it happens each time? Is because the same approach, arguments, lack of receptivity to debating, and same holes in his logic have been present...everytime.

You know almost 2 years ago, I had blocked Imperious (and sandpit and a couple others) on Twitter before...because of an identical rant rampage.

I get it, you agree with him. And when someone presents a side we like, it's our nature to minimize the negatives involved with the presenter and the presentation. It's part of the basic bias all people have. And when we see stuff that goes counter, we tend to magnify the negatives and flaws, too.

It's easy enough to see...you can have two people arguing on one topic.... and BOTH are off the reservation, rude, wrong, whatever.... and the supporters of either side will attack the behaviour in the person opposing their desire, while defending or being blind to it in the person they champion.

You forget..I actually LIKE Imperious, and have agreed with him on a number of things over time. But he also has a known, repeated pattern of losing his cool and composure when people disagree with him. If he'd rein that in, I'd unblock him again, just like last time, and LOVE to have input from both sides.

Look at my earlier posts in this thread..I agree with his stated objective.... just not in the impatient manner it was proposed. And that's because objectively, we have too many loose ends that need tying before we just jump in.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 20 January 2016 - 09:02 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

pbiggz, on 20 January 2016 - 08:58 AM, said:

And the point im making is that the foundation can't be made stable if you have half a foundation.

And I already defeated that argument. Logic disagrees.
Tech 1 is Base. As long as that remains in flux, NOTHING can be balanced fully, because the scale keeps shifting. ONLY after tech 1 is set in stone can things actually move forward, because as things are now, every kneejerk changes massively unbalances the scale across the board.

If you have no set horizon, nothing works.

Once they set tech 1, then you balance IS tech 2 around that, along with Clan Tech. And then you have a framework to build Tech 3 and Clan Tech 2 around. I know it's not what you want to hear, because it means waiting, but it's the right way to do it.

Do we really need to restart this argument?

[Gas Guzzler]

Pariah Devalis, on 20 January 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

I feel like the IS has been at saturation point a long time ago - about a year ago, honestly, with the possible exceptions of the WHM and MAD, as they were needed solid heavy mech options that do not, strictly, require an energy dominated loadout.

However, as far as the Clans are concerned, due to the various locked equipment and fixed engine sizes, I don't think the Clans have reached saturation yet. A Fire Falcon, which we don't have, would play very differently to a Mist Lynx, which we have. A Night Gyr, which we don't have, would play differently to a Timber Wolf, which we have. A Viper would play differently to a Pouncer, which would also play differently to a Coyotl, none of which we have and all three of which would play differently to all current Clan mediums. (However, the Black Lanner would just be an even worse Shadow Cat - it has practically no pod space and no jump jets. lololol)

I'm all for advancing the timeline eventually. If we can pound out the good and unique Clan mechs out fast. At that point, there would be enough variety and tonnage options we could start to advance things again. Say, an all Medium Clan Omnipack, followed by another IIC pack and a classic 1/1/1/1 Omni pack. That would probably put us about where we need to be on the Clan front.

There is actually one IS mech niche that we still need prior to IS Omnis (because those are not in the same category and will be new things.

And that is a 75 ton IS heavy with a ballistic arm, JJs, and energy weapons in the torsos (Falconer, essentially). Once we have that, we need nothing else until IS omni mechs.

As far as Clan mechs, I agree. Definitely not saturated yet. Funny this topic gets brought up... The Turkina fulfills a saturated role (Dire Wolf is the slow mega death machine), while the Kingfisher is something different. SEE? SEEE?

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 January 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

There is actually one IS mech niche that we still need prior to IS Omnis (because those are not in the same category and will be new things.

And that is a 75 ton IS heavy with a ballistic arm, JJs, and energy weapons in the torsos (Falconer, essentially). Once we have that, we need nothing else until IS omni mechs.

As far as Clan mechs, I agree. Definitely not saturated yet. Funny this topic gets brought up... The Turkina fulfills a saturated role (Dire Wolf is the slow mega death machine), while the Kingfisher is something different. SEE? SEEE?

IS that really a niche, I mean we have 70 and 80 tonners that do that (or close).... seems more like a want than a true empty niche. I mean, IDK I don't think we need to duplicate every role/layout in every tonnage. Just me though.