115 replies to this topic

[Obelus]

The Warhammer is disappointing. The Jager is a better mech even though its 5 tons lighter.

[Trauglodyte]

Keep saying/writing that the Warhammer is bad. It'll just make me that much happier when the shininess wears off and I'm one of the loan drivers. It's like how people have been saying for 2+ years that the Awesome is bad. If you know what the chassis can do and drive it to its strengths, you'll do fine. The primary reasons why people hate it are that the arms are low slung (Cataphracts have been doing it forever) and people have gotten lazy with their aiming/leading of projectile weapons. All of this grade school laser vomit has made you people flabby. I swear, most of you would have cried during Beta when the PPC had an 800m/s velocity and we had no HSR of any kind.

[Obelus]

The Awesome is better than the Warhammer. I love the Awesome. It's probably my favorite Assault.

[Bishop Steiner]

Trauglodyte, on 21 January 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

I swear, most of you would have cried during Beta when the PPC had an 800m/s velocity and we had no HSR of any kind.

I was just about the only K2 running around with PPCs in the arms, still.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 January 2016 - 01:28 PM, said:

situational awareness. And since it's one of what...2 maps that LRMs are actually potentially devastating on? I still don't see that many LRMs most matches.

Situational awareness does nothing in several of the large areas where there is just no cover at all for a taller mech to make it out of LRM rain.


If you are twisting and taking evasive action and moving behind objects, you should have some chance of survival - but there are many clear locations where there is just nothing you can do, the cover isn't tall enough and your only fault was not playing static and humping one spot.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 21 January 2016 - 05:55 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Don't go to the middle. Don't do it. Don't go there.

There is a huge ring of good cover around the map. Stay in cover. If there is no cover, don't go there.

If the other team is scrub enough to go there, stay in cover and keep them in the bad place.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 21 January 2016 - 05:54 PM, said:

Situational awareness does nothing in several of the large areas where there is just no cover at all for a taller mech to make it out of LRM rain.


If you are twisting and taking evasive action and moving behind objects, you should have some chance of survival - but there are many clear locations where there is just nothing you can do, the cover isn't tall enough and your only fault was not playing static and humping one spot.

situational awareness extends to knowing your map and avoiding kill zones.

The map is fine.

[SilentWolff]

Ultimatum X, on 21 January 2016 - 05:54 PM, said:

Situational awareness does nothing in several of the large areas where there is just no cover at all for a taller mech to make it out of LRM rain.


If you are twisting and taking evasive action and moving behind objects, you should have some chance of survival - but there are many clear locations where there is just nothing you can do, the cover isn't tall enough and your only fault was not playing static and humping one spot.

So you have enough awareness to know where those areas are, but not enough awareness to know how to move under cover to avoid them?

[Ultimax]

SilentWolff, on 21 January 2016 - 06:21 PM, said:

So you have enough awareness to know where those areas are, but not enough awareness to know how to move under cover to avoid them?

Aside from the fact that I don't have a remote control for the 11 players on my solo PUG team - the problem isn't moving under cover to find and engage the enemy.

Once you are engaged there are many locations where a single mech looking at you means you just have no ability to avoid LRMs - or some of your team members can't.


Binary play like this really shouldn't be encouraged, the map isn't terrible - it just needs some more structures scattered around the map.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 21 January 2016 - 06:28 PM, said:

Aside from the fact that I don't have a remote control for the 11 players on my solo PUG team - the problem isn't moving under cover to find and engage the enemy.

Once you are engaged there are many locations where a single mech looking at you means you just have no ability to avoid LRMs - or some of your team members can't.


Binary play like this really shouldn't be encouraged, the map isn't terrible - it just needs some more structures scattered around the map.

IMO you add those structures and you just make focal points for where every match will be a rush too, and then you go right back to PeekWarrior Online.

I think your description of binary play grossly overstates the map issues, and overlooks the players being bad side.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 January 2016 - 06:36 PM, said:

IMO you add those structures and you just make focal points for where every match will be a rush too, and then you go right back to PeekWarrior Online.

Tourmaline is an example of a map that has big open areas, but also big cover to move from and to.

Its a map that has plenty of movement, and no singular location to rush for total dominance.


So, no. Adding some cover pieces around the map would not automatically turn it into Peekwarrior - if anything the design of Polar encourages less movement from the deepest ravines, and massed ER weapons for long range peeking/trades.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 21 January 2016 - 06:52 PM.

[Trauglodyte]

It is a good map. As a lot of people have said, if you add bases, outposts, etc., you just force people to go there. The irony is that people that hate the map generally hate it because it is an LRM haven. Yet, this board seems to say that LRMs are the biggest idiot option out there and that only bads die to them. The truth is, some of the trenches could be deeper so that the tallest of mechs (i.e., Atlas, Highlander, etc.) don't get unfairly screwed. Unfortunately, if you deepen the trenches, you make it so that said mechs can't get out of the trenches except for certain spots which just creates kill zones and, thusly, more complaining about how easy it is to be killed at specific points on the mech. At that point, PGI is damned either way.

[Nauht]

The map is great. It does have plenty of cover and trenches to move around BUT once you get spotted there's absolutely no cover from LRM rain. There's no tall cover and the trenches aren't deep enough.

It's a lurmers paradise once you're spotted or with a uav up.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

Ultimatum X, on 21 January 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

Tourmaline is an example of a map that has big open areas, but also big cover to move from and to.

Its a map that has plenty of movement, and no singular location to rush for total dominance.

Normally I would point out the "Fortress" in D5/D6 (I think), but most people know now-a-days that its not an opportune spot as it seems, multiple avenues of entry guarantee you can't, and shouldn't, camp there for long.

The "Colony ring" is only useful in the opening salvos of the game, after that, its a really ****** area to be in.

Tourmaline is hands down my favorite map because of this. The far north of the map is probably the least used, but most of the map has been played on since the almost 2 years I've played.

Edited by Sigilum Sanctum, 21 January 2016 - 07:56 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Trauglodyte, on 21 January 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

It is a good map. As a lot of people have said, if you add bases, outposts, etc., you just force people to go there. The irony is that people that hate the map generally hate it because it is an LRM haven. Yet, this board seems to say that LRMs are the biggest idiot option out there and that only bads die to them. The truth is, some of the trenches could be deeper so that the tallest of mechs (i.e., Atlas, Highlander, etc.) don't get unfairly screwed. Unfortunately, if you deepen the trenches, you make it so that said mechs can't get out of the trenches except for certain spots which just creates kill zones and, thusly, more complaining about how easy it is to be killed at specific points on the mech. At that point, PGI is damned either way.

and it's funny for all the LRM QQ... if teams stay mobile..it's crazy mobile trench warfare and LRMs are of only moderate value.

Couple words for folks:

ECM
AMD
Radar Derp

I've died to LRms once on this map so far.

[Bishop Steiner]

oh..and since we don't get to choose maps and build accordingly.... the idjits that load up on lrms and narcs get buttskewered on almost every other map... so again.. big whoop.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 January 2016 - 08:10 PM, said:

oh..and since we don't get to choose maps and build accordingly.... the idjits that load up on lrms and narcs get buttskewered on almost every other map... so again.. big whoop.

Personally, I don't want them to get buttskewered.

I want LRMs to be re-designed so they don't have matches of zero effort devastation and then matches where try as hard as you want but be totally ineffective.



Remove indirect fire but make them fire and forget (no more need to stare at target location to make sure your missiles hit)
Lengthen CDs so they're less spammy, but tighten spread especially for the big tube counts so LRM 20s aren't bad by design
Increase velocity (by alot, since they'd need to compete with direct fire and should be able to use all of their range - with changes like these and an 8s CD they could have 1000m/s velocity or maybe more)


A lot of players aren't against the concept of long ranged missiles, they're against the existing design - it does not have to be this binary or with both a low skill entry but also low/limited reward ceiling.



I'd love to have a weapon system like this.

[adamts01]

Ultimatum X, on 21 January 2016 - 05:54 PM, said:

Situational awareness does nothing in several of the large areas where there is just no cover at all for a taller mech to make it out of LRM rain.

That's no different than walking across the open in any other level. You could literally circle the enemy no matter where they were and they'd never see you in this map.

Ultimatum X, on 21 January 2016 - 08:50 PM, said:

Remove indirect fire but make them fire and forget (no more need to stare at target location to make sure your missiles hit)

Indirect fire is good. There needs to be more variety on the battlefield, not less. LRMs generally stop working once you get to a certain skill of opponent. I'm all for making them, faster, have them hit way harder, fire and forget sounds cool too, but severely limit ammo/ton, so they can't be spammed. I think a single LRM10 shouldn't be laughed off the battlefield.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

SilentWolff, on 21 January 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

While you can certainly brawl with the mech, it isn't ideal imo and certainly worse than a Marauder at it.

Why would you brawl with it?

It's a PPC carrier, that utilizes it's dual PPC's at range while working forward to apply it's Mlas, Slas, and SRM6. At least with the 6K/6R model.

Yes, I can bring that shorter range weaponry into the brawl, but I'm gimping myself of 20 damage every shot if I get into it under 90.

With a Standard 300 engine, my base speed is 69.4kph pre speedtweak, I don't really WANT to be in the brawl.

My issue with what you'd said has nothing to do with brawling. And everything to do with this seeming war on Standard engines.

The Warhammer is a mostly symetrical mech, aprox 3 weapons on each side [for 6 - 8 weapons ] with the addition of a single missile system on one side or the other [or both in the one case]...

The mech is symmetrical, for the most part, and that offers it up to Standard Engines much better, you can roll damage, and sure you might loose half of your armament if you lose a side torso, but that means you STILL have combat capability. If you toss an XL in, and loose a side torso, you loose any of your ability to continue the fight and instead, have been taken out.

Honestly, in my view, taking an XL in a Warhammer, is gimping your team at the end of the day... the only reasons to take an XL on the WHM anyway is 1)to free up some tonnate for some additional heatsinks/ammo. 2) to mount a larger engine, for faster movement, to close brawling ranges.

And by your own admission, the WHM shouldn't be brawling, so...

[Greyhart]

The real interesting and good thing they have done with the new map is that when you look out over it, it appears flat. however, there are trenches and hills, which means that you can be deceived into thinking that the enemy is nowhere near only for them to pop out unexpectedly.

just excellent map design a real change from the usual formula