284 replies to this topic

[Lupis Volk]

It's so cute. a new map comes out and no one can do their standard meta moves so the map is now "bad"

more proof why chasing the meta will ruin you, the game and general Fun.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 22 January 2016 - 02:54 PM.

[MaximusPayne]

To me, the map feels unfinished in design. I love the size but there are zero landmarks. Other than an abundance of the color white, there is nothing that stands out to the players. How about tossing in a downed AT-AT walker here and there ( jk...sorta ). Polar Highlands can certainly set the pace to how the devs approach future map designs, but still needs a tweak or two.

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 22 January 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

The amount of strawmanning in this thread is funny.

Competitive players don't even post on the forums. 99% of you don't post on Outreach, and thus have zero interaction. You've somehow made anybody in plays in a league a boogeyman. That's pretty sad and honestly makes me wonder how you act in real life.

Anyway regarding Gman's post, he has a few good points but I don't agree with a lot of it. The map does lend itself heavily to a certain playstyle and using something like a brawl Atlas is just an exercise in annoyance, but that's not too much different than the rest of the maps in this game.

'peekwarrior' also is very effective on Polar Highlands, contrary to what one intelligent individual posted in this thread btw

Or you are intentionally taking that intelligent users comment out of they context it was made, which in this thread would seem to have to do with stationary calling around dominant geographic locations, and nice stationary peek-a-boo fests.

In other words the most dominant occurrence in all tiers, on all maps to date..... But a tactic that doesn't seem to work as well when there is no dominant terrain to predict where to fight around.



But people can't make their own straw men usually unless they only cherry pick details convenient to the message the wish to bear.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 January 2016 - 03:36 PM.

[ZenFool]

Comp players aren't boogeymen, they are simply way too into their own "superior" playstyle. I don't want to diminish anything that Gman has done at metamechs. I appreciate the huge amount of time he puts into helping this game.

I simply don't want HIS hissyfit interfere with what is a truly good map. We got the same "balanced" map with giant landmark in center for years. Now we have a map where the fight can and DOES happen anywhere and all the "meta", "comp" players scream to high heaven and tell everyone else that if they like it they must be underhive???

Seriously, step back and consider why some people like this map. It keeps things from being stale.

[Lupis Volk]

ZenFool, on 22 January 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

Seriously, step back and consider why some people like this map. It keeps things from being stale.

Also it's huge and open. unlike those maps with the clutter making lanes.

[mrpetzold]

I wonder how this discussion would have been if it was a regular player, and not a comp-player writing the exact same words.
It is not like every comp player hate this map, and every non-comp player loves it.

Its also alot of assumptions on how a person is regarding if or not that player compete in a league/tournament. Its not weird alot of people call this community insanely toxic. Even new player in tier 5 have said that several times since steam-release. Surprise surprise, it is not the comp-players they meet in their matches.

[stun]

ZenFool, on 22 January 2016 - 03:25 PM, said:

Comp players aren't boogeymen, they are simply way too into their own "superior" playstyle. I don't want to diminish anything that Gman has done at metamechs. I appreciate the huge amount of time he puts into helping this game.

I simply don't want HIS hissyfit interfere with what is a truly good map. We got the same "balanced" map with giant landmark in center for years. Now we have a map where the fight can and DOES happen anywhere and all the "meta", "comp" players scream to high heaven and tell everyone else that if they like it they must be underhive???

Seriously, step back and consider why some people like this map. It keeps things from being stale.

I agree, honestly I've been having a lot of fun on this map, without having to take a single LRM. It's a fantastic map.

[Bishop Steiner]

mrpetzold, on 22 January 2016 - 03:35 PM, said:

I wonder how this discussion would have been if it was a regular player, and not a comp-player writing the exact same words.
It is not like every comp player hate this map, and every non-comp player loves it.

Its also alot of assumptions on how a person is regarding if or not that player compete in a league/tournament. Its not weird alot of people call this community insanely toxic. Even new player in tier 5 have said that several times since steam-release. Surprise surprise, it is not the comp-players they meet in their matches.

Similar comments, taken from a different angle.

Make no mistake a LOT of Bads hate it too. Some for the same reasons, like lack of dominant feature to mill to (they just tend to be the ones who get farmed by the Comps while they "hide in safety" of that major feature) but all too many because of ADHD CoD playstyle mentality..... it takes more than 10 seconds (which for today's gamers is an eternity) to actually start shooting things (it's very cruel to ask them to stay engaged without explosions that long, ya know), but also because it absolutely punishes the Solo Rambo Big Dang Hero mentality.

If you bother to read through GenDis, there are several hate threads posted by Bads, too, and the general responses ain't too dissimilar. The vehemence may differ, because Gman's opinion is far more far reaching than some peoples, and those who enjoy the varied and somewhat less predictable combat on it don't want to see this map nerfed into another same old "ring around the feature" map.

As for this communities toxicity? It's at an almost all time low, with the worst perps long gone, banned, etc. You want toxic? Go stroll the Archives of 2013, and first half of 2014. Or tbh, almost any other game's forums or Reddit. All of em are a heck of a lot more toxic than here.

Only way I could see someone viewing this current community as hugely toxic is if they are one of the players who were part of the previous toxic wastedump of MWO forums.... because for them, it is indeed a much less inviting environment. By design.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 January 2016 - 03:45 PM.

[ChronoBear]

ZenFool, on 22 January 2016 - 06:58 AM, said:

I am so tired of people screaming "I'm comp so I know what I'm talking about!!!!" Never mind that other "comp" players love the new map.

Who the F cares about what 2% of the population thinks. Guess what, they dont pay the bills, the rest of us do. I simply do not understand why people have such a hard time with cover. The trenches and small spattering of cover offer more than enough shielding from the LRM'pocalypse.

[Bishop Steiner]

ChronoBear, on 22 January 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

Who the F cares about what 2% of the population thinks. Guess what, they dont pay the bills, the rest of us do. I simply do not understand why people have such a hard time with cover. The trenches and small spattering of cover offer more than enough shielding from the LRM'pocalypse.

on those matches it even happens.

[MischiefSC]

I would suspect the most hate for this map per capita by tier the T5/T4 players probably hate it the most. If you don't know how to deal really well with LRMs even with minimal cover and several people on each side bring LRMs per match it must really suck. Also if you tend to get lost and your team doesn't actually do scouting it is probably much hated.

As to comp players -

Most competitive people are just people. They're not 'smarter', they're just more competitive. They put more work in than someone who isn't competitive. This doesn't make them better able to adapt or have better ideas or anything like that. It just means that when something that works comes out they're more aggressive in identifying it and using it.

There's certainly a segment of smart, competitive players. At some point the smart, competitive players will identify the best way to play Polar and the other competitive players will practice it until it's a habit, then they'll drop in matches in pug queue and other people will see it and it'll trickle down into the general population.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 22 January 2016 - 03:47 PM, said:

I would suspect the most hate for this map per capita by tier the T5/T4 players probably hate it the most. If you don't know how to deal really well with LRMs even with minimal cover and several people on each side bring LRMs per match it must really suck. Also if you tend to get lost and your team doesn't actually do scouting it is probably much hated.

As to comp players -

Most competitive people are just people. They're not 'smarter', they're just more competitive. They put more work in than someone who isn't competitive. This doesn't make them better able to adapt or have better ideas or anything like that. It just means that when something that works comes out they're more aggressive in identifying it and using it.

There's certainly a segment of smart, competitive players. At some point the smart, competitive players will identify the best way to play Polar and the other competitive players will practice it until it's a habit, then they'll drop in matches in pug queue and other people will see it and it'll trickle down into the general population.

which is the whole reason metamechs is so popular in the first place... the comps who lead and do understand the mechanics, balance, etc are just like in any segment of the player base.... the minority. The requisites to be able to play ANY game competitively is to have good reflexes (or in very rare instances figure a way to mitigate your reflex issue), insane focus and dedication, follow trends (sorry most competitive players are not themselves trendsetters...those trends are discovered and shared by what we will call "alpha comps"), crap tons of practice and discipline, and above else that "winning is the only fun" mentality.

And there is absolutely ZERO wrong with that.

But by conversations, comments and posts on these very forums, reddit, etc, I can tell you a lot of competitive players have ZERO frikking clue about balance, just like most non comps don't. Having good reflexes and discipline and using copypasta mechs does not imbue mystical understanding. Sorry. (nor does insisting on doing things one's own way or being bad,but I'm sure the comps who comment will only see that I said All Comps are not gods amongst men when it comes to understanding balance...all other points conveniently ignored)

Many comps indeed do prefer to promote stale metas (not all, maybe not even most, but quite a few do) because the heart of comp is always identifying the easiest way to accomplish the goal, then strip away everything else, and distill it to it's very purest essence. If suddenly true balance was to magically occur on a game where all options were equal...a lot of peoples heads would explode because instead of all ways being equally good...with no clear meta, the mindset becomes all ways are equally BAD.

At it's purest, the competitive mindset is ALWAYS going to strip off everything else, and ignore 90% of what's available in the game. And as that changes, so does what they use. And whatever does not fit that description is bad and to be ignored.

And to be quite honest, when taken out of their disciplined team settings, where they can cover for shortcomings in overspecialized mechs, know someone has their back, etc (aka Solo Queue).... tbh, a fair bit of Comp Players don't really impress. Some certainly do carry the team. Some, like the Wispsys and Adiuvos, are really THAT GOOD in a Light mech. I In the Day, I don't know too many people who could take on Koreanese, or Pat Kell (and to this day, I would assume Heimdelight and Proton).

But I do see more than enough prominent Comp Team tag wears in match who do not carry, who don't even try to adapt to what they have on hand to deal with and who really don't impress, because the skill set and mindset to excel as part of a team, or in the abject crapstorm of chaos that is PUGlife, are diametrically different. And a person can be a DemiGod in one style and an absolute peasant in the other. It's the rare person who tends to do amazing in both. (and I certainly make no such claims! Maybe 15-20 years ago, I cared enough, but my days of getting all intense about playign a video game have gone the way of Street Fighter II, lol)

But as some (I believe Adiuvo?) noted...most of your true die hard Comps don't comment often here. So one would assume (at least when I'm commenting, as I have clarified this before, more than once) that many of the comments are specifically aimed at that subset of the vocal minority, many of whom, again, have demonstrated by their comments that they really have no clue, or possibly no desire to actually balance the game.

The issue is that some people wear that tier 1, or unit tag like a badge that means all the peasants should be silent and simply lap up what is said... and unfortunately many people, including the Devs here, have taken it as gospel, and often it's screwed the game.

Yup...rambly rant over... dang kids these days getting me all riled up... GET OFF MY LAWN! /

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 January 2016 - 04:26 PM.

[Shredhead]

So many assumptions, ignorance and stupidity, all in one thread. Amazing. But well, it's GD, nothing more to expect.
First off, Mister Gman does not speak for all comp players, so you can kindly cut your crap and stop jacking it to how you're so much better than all comp players because Gman said something you don't agree with!
Secondly, I looked at his "metamech" site once, laughed, and never looked at it again. Assuming this site is representative or even a primary source of builds for comp teams is like saying the New Player section in the forums is a good starting point for new players. That's not really an ideal comparison, the new player section is way worse, and his site certainly can give anyone who isn't in a comp oriented unit some inspiration on how to build better mechs.
Now, that said, I have the utmost respect for Gman as a player, for the amount of work he does to help this community (regardless of me finding some of the stuff not optimal at all) and for Gman as a generally nice person.
I disagree with him on his assertion of the new map, I absolutely love the tactical variety it offers. And so do many comp players. It's not like all comp players are alike, some want less TTK, some more, some prefer limited lanes on maps, others prefer more varied terrain.
The next point is all that BS about how "metamechs" supposedly don't work on that map. Sorry, that's BS! My laser vomit mechs are doing fantastically well on that map. If anything, that map supports laser vomit meta over everything else.
Last, but not least; there is no "peak meta"! I don't know where that came from, but the top comp teams are always on the move and peaking only happens if the map and positions dictate it, and then also only until a weakness shows.

Yeah, as I said, assumptions, ignorance, stupidity. General Discussion ftw!

[Ultimax]

I'm just baffled by the number of people suffering from mental disconnect here, who somehow think this map is anti-meta when this map is one of the most abusable maps in the game for long ranged, massed ERLLAS spamming static gunlines fighting at 800M - this map on skirmish in a tournament has the potential to be 15 minutes of watching paint dry with each team waiting for the other to make some mistake.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 22 January 2016 - 04:56 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 22 January 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

I'm just baffled by the number of people suffering from mental disconnect here, who somehow think this map is anti-meta when this map is one of the most abusable maps in the game for long ranged, massed ERLLAS spamming static gunlines fighting at 800M - this map on skirmish in a tournament has the potential to be 15 minutes of watching paint dry with each team waiting for the other to make some mistake.

same way I'm baffled at how you continue to ignore the terrain itself rarely presents those shots unless people are idiots...

I guess all the rolling dips, valleys and trenches and snow dunes don't allow players to advance out of sight....

[Metus regem]

Ultimatum X, on 22 January 2016 - 04:55 PM, said:

I'm just baffled by the number of people suffering from mental disconnect here, who somehow think this map is anti-meta when this map is one of the most abusable maps in the game for long ranged, massed ERLLAS spamming static gunlines fighting at 800M - this map on skirmish in a tournament has the potential to be 15 minutes of watching paint dry with each team waiting for the other to make some mistake.

The amount of time I spent in the cockpit, being witness to just that in real life is mind boggling.... So why should it be any different here, in a map that actually needs scouts?

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 January 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

same way I'm baffled at how you continue to ignore the terrain itself rarely presents those shots unless people are idiots...

I guess all the rolling dips, valleys and trenches and snow dunes don't allow players to advance out of sight....

Spoken like a man who has never played 15 minutes of a private match on HPG with two teams on opposite ends of the field with ER LLAS waiting for the other team to get bored enough to make the mistake of exposing themselves.


That's HPG, a map with enormous structures on it and plenty of places to move from cover to cover.


I've seen the same strat used on Tourmaline as well - another map with plenty of cover.


You're fooling yourself if you think Polar Highlands can't be played this way.


It's one thing to like the idea of cover and concealment and quite another to make an assumption that you can actually sneak up on a proper gunline that has good scouts.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 22 January 2016 - 05:10 PM, said:

Spoken like a man who has never played 15 minutes of a private match on HPG with two teams on opposite ends of the field with ER LLAS waiting for the other team to get bored enough to make the mistake of exposing themselves.


That's HPG, a map with enormous structures on it and plenty of places to move from cover to cover.


I've seen the same strat used on Tourmaline as well - another map with plenty of cover.


You're fooling yourself if you think Polar Highlands can't be played this way.


It's one thing to like the idea of cover and concealment and quite another to make an assumption that you can actually sneak up on a proper gunline that has good scouts.

oh, so you're saying it happens on your precious Cover Maps ANYHOW? GG.

(Also the terrain and approaches are a lot less predictable than on HPG...but hey, whatever)

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 January 2016 - 05:13 PM, said:

oh, so you're saying it happens on your precious Cover Maps ANYHOW? GG.

I'm saying it's potentially worse on this map - but cheers for being purposefully obtuse.

[Kjudoon]

An x formation of caps so there is a central point to fight over?????

Just.... No. A vehement no.

Why? BecUse it repeats all the mistakes other conquest maps currently have... Skirmsh iin the middle on a timer.

Pass. We need to actually change the caps in most maps to do away with central cap points. Theta must move out of the center on all maps large enough to handle it.