354 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 10:47 PM, said:

And there you just so eloquently explained my point.

PPCs are not about 'skill barrier to entry'. They are about cost vs reward.

The fundamental issue with PPCs is PPFLD, long range and no ammo. There is no cooldown or heat nerf that will offset that short of making them irrelevant. In that regard they're similar to Gauss; either Gauss is better in spite of its nerfs or it isn't, in which case it's flat out inferior.

If PPCs have great range and accuracy but no ammo requirement they have no real cost to taking long range shots. If you can take long range shots accurately at no risk then you've got the ideal setup. Kill the other guy before he gets to you. If he gets to you, he wins.

That's not a balance solution. The fix for PPCs is either damage spread in 5pt increments for IS and CERPPCs or a DoT effect or something similar (like lasers) or you keep them from being a viable sniper weapon. If AC10s got 100 shots per ton would you use them? Of course you would. 2xAC10s at 24 tons and 2 tons of ammo vs 2 PPCs and 12 extra DHS....

Even if AC10s had 100 shots per ton 2 PPCs would be better because of better range performance and no ballistic drop even if you give up the 90m point blank range limit.

I dunno on PPCs. I really don't. However if you make them accurate at range, comparable with existing ballistics, you make them inherently superior. Cooldown nerfs and the like don't really offset that.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 24 January 2016 - 10:55 PM, said:

PPCs are not about 'skill barrier to entry'. They are about cost vs reward.

The fundamental issue with PPCs is PPFLD, long range and no ammo. There is no cooldown or heat nerf that will offset that short of making them irrelevant. In that regard they're similar to Gauss; either Gauss is better in spite of its nerfs or it isn't, in which case it's flat out inferior.

If PPCs have great range and accuracy but no ammo requirement they have no real cost to taking long range shots. If you can take long range shots accurately at no risk then you've got the ideal setup. Kill the other guy before he gets to you. If he gets to you, he wins.

That's not a balance solution. The fix for PPCs is either damage spread in 5pt increments for IS and CERPPCs or a DoT effect or something similar (like lasers) or you keep them from being a viable sniper weapon. If AC10s got 100 shots per ton would you use them? Of course you would. 2xAC10s at 24 tons and 2 tons of ammo vs 2 PPCs and 12 extra DHS....

Even if AC10s had 100 shots per ton 2 PPCs would be better because of better range performance and no ballistic drop even if you give up the 90m point blank range limit.

I dunno on PPCs. I really don't. However if you make them accurate at range, comparable with existing ballistics, you make them inherently superior. Cooldown nerfs and the like don't really offset that.

A projectile based weapon will always have a "critical range" where it is no longer effective at trading with a hit scan weapon.

Making it a splash damage weapon where it only does 5 damage to one component will completely remove it from viability, even on mechs with 50% velocity quirks.

[Hit the Deck]

MischiefSC, on 24 January 2016 - 10:55 PM, said:

...Cooldown nerfs and the like don't really offset that.

That certainly worked for Gauss.

[Aresye]

Mcgral18, on 24 January 2016 - 09:37 PM, said:

Not even the SRM24+A, 6SPL brawling Timby?

That's a lot of firepower in a short period of time (assuming closing to 200M is feasible).
I don't think an Onion can stand against that.

The Orion has always sucked and will continue to suck because it's hardpoints and hardpoint locations are bad.

Besides, nobody brawls alone, especially in a game as teamwork oriented as this one is.

The REAL scenario you want to pitch is who will come out on top in this kind of scenario?
- SPL Cheetahs
- SRM/Streak Stormcrows
- SRM+SPL Timberwolves
- Dakka Warhawks? SPL Executioners? Clans don't really have an Atlas-S, "Lead the charge and tank a crap ton of damage," equivalent.
vs...
- SPL Firestarters
- SRM Griffins
- SRM Quickdraws (or short range laser vomit Black Knights/Grasshoppers)
- Brawling Atlai

That's likely what a brawling dropdeck would look like for both IS and Clan.

Now one of these sides runs cooler, has a ton of mobility quirks, has shorter laser durations, has better PPFLD ballistics, and has a couple hundred extra HP. Guess which side that is?

The IS has always held the advantage in brawling. Why would it now suddenly be different just because the Clan's range game got taken away?

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

A projectile based weapon will always have a "critical range" where it is no longer effective at trading with a hit scan weapon.

Making it a splash damage weapon where it only does 5 damage to one component will completely remove it from viability, even on mechs with 50% velocity quirks.

The problem is that the PPC out-ranges all the hitscan weapons. So if you push that envelope out near the edge of either, you leave the balance in favor of the PPC.

If you do 10 pts of PPFLD at 800m and I do 9 pts over 1.3 seconds at 800m and your PPFLD is fast enough that you only miss a few % more often than I do, the balance will favor you. If I have 30% less cooldown it doesn't matter; it just means I'm waiting longer for you to pop up to exchange fire. If I close with you all I'm doing is increasing your accuracy. I'm hitscan at max range. If I have to stare at you for 1.3 seconds and you have to see me for 0.3 seconds, shoot and get away and I only have 0.5 seconds to see the shot and move (that's 1,500 m/s at ~800m away) again, you're going to win. Unless I'm in a Locust or I've got a fraction of my Raven showing I'm not going to get out of the way in 0.5 seconds.

Which we know because it's how the game used to work when PPCs were faster. I get the issue - I would love to have PPCs as a viable tool on the table. The issue is that PPFLD is a binary proposition compared to DoT. All other factors being largely equal, PPFLD wins. If it doesn't.... then it loses. You don't have grades of success and failure like you do with DoT weapons that you can shave and shade into a closer balance.

Hit the Deck, on 24 January 2016 - 11:04 PM, said:

That certainly worked for Gauss.

No, they make it worthless at a point compared to other options. When it's viable it's the best option.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 24 January 2016 - 11:10 PM, said:

The problem is that the PPC out-ranges all the hitscan weapons. So if you push that envelope out near the edge of either, you leave the balance in favor of the PPC.

If you do 10 pts of PPFLD at 800m and I do 9 pts over 1.3 seconds at 800m and your PPFLD is fast enough that you only miss a few % more often than I do, the balance will favor you. If I have 30% less cooldown it doesn't matter; it just means I'm waiting longer for you to pop up to exchange fire. If I close with you all I'm doing is increasing your accuracy. I'm hitscan at max range. If I have to stare at you for 1.3 seconds and you have to see me for 0.3 seconds, shoot and get away and I only have 0.5 seconds to see the shot and move (that's 1,500 m/s at ~800m away) again, you're going to win. Unless I'm in a Locust or I've got a fraction of my Raven showing I'm not going to get out of the way in 0.5 seconds.

Which we know because it's how the game used to work when PPCs were faster. I get the issue - I would love to have PPCs as a viable tool on the table. The issue is that PPFLD is a binary proposition compared to DoT. All other factors being largely equal, PPFLD wins. If it doesn't.... then it loses. You don't have grades of success and failure like you do with DoT weapons that you can shave and shade into a closer balance.

Well. Gauss rifles are 2000 m/s projectiles with 1 heat. Why can't they trade reliably at 800+ m? Maybe PPFLD isn't the boogeyman you are making it out to be?

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 January 2016 - 11:15 PM.

[Hit the Deck]

MischiefSC, on 24 January 2016 - 11:10 PM, said:

...
No, they make it worthless at a point compared to other options. When it's viable it's the best option.

And when was that? I mean Cooldown adjustment can certainly balance a weapon. What they recently did to Gauss is a good example.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 11:14 PM, said:

Well. Gauss rifles are 2000 m/s projectiles with 1 heat. Why can't they trade reliably at 800+ m? Maybe PPFLD isn't the boogeyman you are making it out to be?

We've already been down this road though. You're saying 'Yes, it happened before but it won't happen again because....'

Reasons?

Gauss has charge up, 15 tons to use, poor ammo/ton and has all the limits I'm saying PPCs lack - which is the fundamental issue.

You have to pick your shots carefully with Gauss. Give Gauss no chargeup and 100 shots per ton then tell me it's balanced, even if you gave it 10 heat. It would be superior to gauss as it is now because you can hang back and plink plink plink plink all day. The game becomes about not closing with the enemy so he can't hurt you because at range you can endlessly take your shots.

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 24 January 2016 - 11:24 PM, said:

We've already been down this road though. You're saying 'Yes, it happened before but it won't happen again because....'

Reasons?

Gauss has charge up, 15 tons to use, poor ammo/ton and has all the limits I'm saying PPCs lack - which is the fundamental issue.

You have to pick your shots carefully with Gauss. Give Gauss no chargeup and 100 shots per ton then tell me it's balanced, even if you gave it 10 heat. It would be superior to gauss as it is now because you can hang back and plink plink plink plink all day. The game becomes about not closing with the enemy so he can't hurt you because at range you can endlessly take your shots.

This game is nothing like it was dude..

Its clear you hate PPCs, I don't even know why I am arguing with you about this, waste of time. I honestly think you are full of crap that PPCs either have to be bad, or they will totally dominate everything, but believe what ever you want.

Its funny how I can fire PPCs as often as heat allows me to in a BJ-3, with totally fine accuracy (faster than the 1500 m/s old meta speed) yet my damage is always higher with lasers. Maybe because with each poke I hit for 33 damage on my Arrow, and only 20 on the BJ-3... how curious.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 24 January 2016 - 11:34 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 11:31 PM, said:

This game is nothing like it was dude..

Its clear you hate PPCs, I don't even know why I am arguing with you about this, waste of time. I honestly think you are full of crap that PPCs either have to be bad, or they will totally dominate everything, but believe what ever you want.

I don't hate PPCs any more than I hate Ghost Heat or any other problem mechanic in the game. I'm not 'against PPCs'. I'm against making an already broken balance environment worse.

Don't try to make this some weird me vs PPCs thing. The only things that have changed in the game have nothing to do with the balance issues that PPCs created. I'm all for viable PPCs I just don't see any reason to believe turning their velocity back up is going to make them an either/or choice with LPLs. How are you proposing giving them a niche that fits them in sideways against LPLs without being superior or inferior? How about other ballistics? How is a velocity buff going to change that in a real way?

[Gas Guzzler]

MischiefSC, on 24 January 2016 - 11:38 PM, said:

I don't hate PPCs any more than I hate Ghost Heat or any other problem mechanic in the game. I'm not 'against PPCs'. I'm against making an already broken balance environment worse.

Don't try to make this some weird me vs PPCs thing. The only things that have changed in the game have nothing to do with the balance issues that PPCs created. I'm all for viable PPCs I just don't see any reason to believe turning their velocity back up is going to make them an either/or choice with LPLs. How are you proposing giving them a niche that fits them in sideways against LPLs without being superior or inferior? How about other ballistics? How is a velocity buff going to change that in a real way?

I don't know maybe you can explain why people are putting lasers on their Warhammers instead of utilizing the 50% velocity buff. Doesn't that indicate to you that fast PPCs don't all of a sudden become better than LPLs? For normal pug play, damage per heat is the limiter, especially in the group queue.

[Kuritaclan]

MischiefSC, on 24 January 2016 - 11:10 PM, said:

The problem is that the PPC out-ranges all the hitscan weapons. So if you push that envelope out near the edge of either, you leave the balance in favor of the PPC.

If you do 10 pts of PPFLD at 800m and I do 9 pts over 1.3 seconds at 800m and your PPFLD is fast enough that you only miss a few % more often than I do, the balance will favor you. If I have 30% less cooldown it doesn't matter; it just means I'm waiting longer for you to pop up to exchange fire. If I close with you all I'm doing is increasing your accuracy. I'm hitscan at max range. If I have to stare at you for 1.3 seconds and you have to see me for 0.3 seconds, shoot and get away and I only have 0.5 seconds to see the shot and move (that's 1,500 m/s at ~800m away) again, you're going to win. Unless I'm in a Locust or I've got a fraction of my Raven showing I'm not going to get out of the way in 0.5 seconds.

Which we know because it's how the game used to work when PPCs were faster. I get the issue - I would love to have PPCs as a viable tool on the table. The issue is that PPFLD is a binary proposition compared to DoT. All other factors being largely equal, PPFLD wins. If it doesn't.... then it loses. You don't have grades of success and failure like you do with DoT weapons that you can shave and shade into a closer balance.

Splash damage range dependend for PPC? 100-300m full PPFLD 300-500m 2split points 13 PPFLD damage 500-700m 3split points 12 PPFLD -700-900, 4 split point and 11 PPFLD damage and so on. Not to hard to bring this in a linear formula. The more range you have to the target the more splat damage it get. And therefore the velocity can go up gain.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 24 January 2016 - 11:55 PM.

[Domenoth]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 11:31 PM, said:

This game is nothing like it was dude..

Its clear you hate PPCs, I don't even know why I am arguing with you about this, waste of time. I honestly think you are full of crap that PPCs either have to be bad, or they will totally dominate everything, but believe what ever you want.

Its funny how I can fire PPCs as often as heat allows me to in a BJ-3, with totally fine accuracy (faster than the 1500 m/s old meta speed) yet my damage is always higher with lasers. Maybe because with each poke I hit for 33 damage on my Arrow, and only 20 on the BJ-3... how curious.

MischiefSC, on 24 January 2016 - 11:38 PM, said:

I don't hate PPCs any more than I hate Ghost Heat or any other problem mechanic in the game. I'm not 'against PPCs'. I'm against making an already broken balance environment worse.

Don't try to make this some weird me vs PPCs thing. The only things that have changed in the game have nothing to do with the balance issues that PPCs created. I'm all for viable PPCs I just don't see any reason to believe turning their velocity back up is going to make them an either/or choice with LPLs. How are you proposing giving them a niche that fits them in sideways against LPLs without being superior or inferior? How about other ballistics? How is a velocity buff going to change that in a real way?

I've been watching the back and forth here, and one thing that stood out for me in the beginning of the thread is that the main complaint about the largely quirked IS Mechs is actually that their range is too long AND their burn times are too short. I can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure there's a combination of numbers out there where people would start to say an infinite range IS Large Laser is worthless because it takes too long to burn.

I'm probably in the minority but I'm actually a fan of slow PPCs. However, I think they need to be in an environment without fast burning, ER Large Lasers because face-time is a really important factor (i.e. AC/2 DPS = to AC/5 DPS is not balanced because AC/2 requires more face-time). With face-time factored in, the PPC would out PPFLD long burning ER Large Lasers because the Large Lasers would have to expose themselves to do full damage. PPC's would not be good sniping weapons against targets moving quickly from cover to cover because the projectile speed is low. So if you want to snipe down an approaching brawler, you would want ER Large Lasers but you'd be vulnerable to PPCs. If you want to counter ER Large Lasers, you'd take PPCs, but you'd be vulnerable to brawlers.

So I guess my TLDR; is maybe don't nerf-hammer all the IS range quirks, but don't pair them with blanket duration reductions either. Use increased durations to give PPCs a window to connect without bringing them back as the end-all-be-all weapon.

EDIT:

I realize Clan ER Large Lasers are considered bad right now, but quirked IS ER Large Lasers are considered god-tier. That suggests to me that there should be a sweet spot in the middle where they are viable but not OP.

I'm also curious how much quirked IS ER Large Lasers influence peoples' opinions of Clan ER Large Lasers. Are Clan ER Large Lasers "bad" because they just are? Or are they bad because IS has quirked ER Large Lasers.

Edited by Domenoth, 25 January 2016 - 12:14 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

MischiefSC, on 24 January 2016 - 11:10 PM, said:

If you do 10 pts of PPFLD at 800m and I do 9 pts over 1.3 seconds at 800m and your PPFLD is fast enough that you only miss a few % more often than I do, the balance will favor you.

You are forgetting that heat is a limiting factor. If you can only do 10 pts of damage every 10 seconds as opposed to me being able to do three times as much in that amount of time, I'm going to win because eventually I will be able to force you into a position to where you can't hide unless you are able to one-shot me. Sorry but so long as PPFLD alphas are limited to a mediocre 30-35 points, then limiting their DPS is viable option to keeping them in check, as it always has been.

Domenoth, on 24 January 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

So I guess my TLDR; is maybe don't nerf-hammer all the IS range quirks, but don't pair them with blanket duration reductions either. Use increased durations to give PPCs a window to connect without bringing them back as the end-all-be-all weapon.

So you want the Gauss meta to return eh, nerfing duration won't bring back PPCs into the long range meta. It will just shift it back to Gauss and PPCs/Lasers will be mid-range weapons again/still.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 25 January 2016 - 08:20 AM.

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 January 2016 - 11:49 PM, said:

I don't know maybe you can explain why people are putting lasers on their Warhammers instead of utilizing the 50% velocity buff. Doesn't that indicate to you that fast PPCs don't all of a sudden become better than LPLs? For normal pug play, damage per heat is the limiter, especially in the group queue.

Because of heat, not velocity.

The problem however is exposure. That's my concern with ppcs. If it's accurate at over 500m and even reasonably heat efficient it beats lasers hands down.

I would be more inclined to leave speed about where it is, maybe another 100 ms but give it a heat reduction.

Or more to the point slash the speed buffs but add ppc heat reduction.

It's the ultimate peek and poke weapon if it's accurate enough. No ammo. Since it's not accurate plus it's too hot it's pretty useless right now. Especially with lpls at 7 heat.

However 35 pts of accurate ppfld (cuz we're talking about 35, be honest) at 500m+ with a fraction of a second exposure....

That's going to bork balance and PGI leaves **** broken for a year or so.

Even without gauss. 2x2 10, 40 pts from the Stalker. Peek, boink boink. We're derailing a good discussion about removing buffs from erlls because short burn times and long range are a balance issue. How could that not be?

I don't hate PPCs for their freedom or anything goofy like that. I do however know how and why we ended up in the laser meta. As much as some people hate it it's superior to the ppfld metas of days past. Yes, all means make PPC viable. Just help me understand how they will be viable without replacing lasers and what niche they will fill.

[Domenoth]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 January 2016 - 12:07 AM, said:

So you want the Gauss meta to return eh, nerfing duration won't bring back PPCs as long range meta. It will just shift it back to Gauss and PPCs/Lasers will be mid-range weapons again/still.

I don't think what I said invariably leads to what you are claiming it will. Yes, I said increase duration but I didn't say decrease DPS. Increasing duration would only be to increase face-time. Decreasing cooldown would leave DPS unchanged (if that's necessary).

Gauss is "bad" right now because DPS is so low. That means It wouldn't be good at swatting down incoming brawlers for a different reason than PPCs (low DPS != slow projectile).

EDIT:

And no, I definitely don't want to bring PPCs back as long range meta. I want all long range weapons to be useful in different scenarios. I don't want anything able to do everything.

Edited by Domenoth, 25 January 2016 - 12:31 AM.

[-Vompo-]

IS vs. Clan balance is not too bad. There are few mechs that are overpowered and we all know which.

Why PGI has allowed this I have no idea. Just playing few minutes in a mech gives you an idea is a mech good or not and maybe 10 minutes if it's op or not.

[Adamski]

The one area IS mechs have an advantage is in immobile long range poking. I have no idea why people think the Clan players should be able to build to beat them at their strong suit.

That's like IS being able to build 87kph heavies with large alphas of 92 that is still has effective optimal ranges of 400m, without using an XL engine that will kill them on any torso loss.

Edited by Adamski, 25 January 2016 - 01:17 AM.

[Eboli]

We are never going to have 10 Clan mechs going up against 12 IS mechs so Clans need to be less powerful than the original intention.

How many threads were made over the last couple of years complaining about how OP clan mechs where such clan players (with most comp.players using such mechs) derided IS players as being wingers and learn to.play comments. Remember the bunny hopping TBRs...

Now that clan vs IS is competitive in general game play now clan players are not happy and appear to be conducting biased studies.

How many of the IS builds ran XLs. QKD 4 x ERLLs run XLs and tend to die very quick when their left rightisTS get focussed ...

Sorry but all I see is a thread where biased clan comp players want their winning edge back.

Edited by Eboli, 25 January 2016 - 01:36 AM.

[1Grimbane]

tell you what i don't play comp but pre patch i played my clan mechs almost exclusively now i play IS almost exclusively. i have a very aggressive play style and have noticed my survivability is way better in Is now. it seemed that for a while the atlas was a waste of tonnage now all five are loaded up kicking-*** all day long. IS med brawlers are real fun now (always have been) now i look at most timbers and crows as prey. and the cheetah... my death's knell loves it some cheetah, quite the fur trapper.

i've now fully embraced the sword and board mindset and have noticed greater gameplay like that

Edited by 1Grimbane, 25 January 2016 - 01:54 AM.