106 replies to this topic

[mogs01gt]

Apocryph0n, on 27 January 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

And how would random damage that you can mostly avoid in most cases be better at suppression than Direct-Fire-Alphas of 50+ Points of damage that hit you from 600+m away?There is a reason why the high-class-play and competetive matches see no LRMs, because they're far worse than most direct fire options, even at "suppression".

and competitive matches are typically similar mechs on both sides.


I mean, who ever could have thought that someone would want to run a different mech when PUG'ing than what's ran in comp play!!! The blasphemy!

[Lugh]

Alistair Winter, on 27 January 2016 - 05:47 AM, said:

stuff

But in increasing your PSR via noob LRMs and not emphasizing aiming, snap shooting from arm mounted weapons and other skills that 'elite' and comp players all have, you are just offering up the noobness to be roflstomped by the comp teams in tier 1.

That you are using TAG and getting your own locks more often than not is a good thing.

Aiming is still OP. Learn it. Love it. Hit what you are shooting at. That way 900m kills with PPCs on WHMs are possible....

[mogs01gt]

Lugh, on 27 January 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

But in increasing your PSR via noob LRMs and not emphasizing aiming, snap shooting from arm mounted weapons and other skills that 'elite' and comp players all have, you are just offering up the noobness to be roflstomped by the comp teams in tier 1.
That you are using TAG and getting your own locks more often than not is a good thing.
Aiming is still OP. Learn it. Love it. Hit what you are shooting at. That way 900m kills with PPCs on WHMs are possible....

Tier2 already plays with Tier1 and when did he say he is facing competitive teams mech???

and again with the same response, not all mechs are designed to use energy or ballistics...

Edited by mogs01gt, 27 January 2016 - 07:50 AM.

[Screech]

KinLuu, on 27 January 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

No, it is not.

3.0 w/l ratio is what I consider better than average. Besides - you can not really calculate averages from 30 something games.

He was talking about the solo queue not farmlandia. But you are right about the 30 games not really being enough games.

[M T]

You realise though you preferably require 2 people to pull this off!

Requires a dedicated spotter that spams 'R' !

This was absent from the initial math

[Alistair Winter]

Lugh, on 27 January 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

But in increasing your PSR via noob LRMs and not emphasizing aiming, snap shooting from arm mounted weapons and other skills that 'elite' and comp players all have, you are just offering up the noobness to be roflstomped by the comp teams in tier 1.

Nah, I do ok against most Tier 1 players I've encountered. I don't normally play in CW or group queue, but I feel that I can handle myself ok when I'm there.

To be honest, I feel like the main reason I'm still Tier 2 is because I have two accounts (both Tier 2) and because I love to play a lot of straight up unpopular mechs. Getting into CW can be a hassle, because all the standard mechs that people are using (Thunderbolts, Blackjacks, Banshees, etc) I simply don't own. While other people are running their 8xML BJ-1X or whatever, I'm playing my Yen Lo Wang or my Cicada, for example. While other people are running their SPL ACH, I'm usually running my Ravens. If I'm not playing the AWS-8R, I'm often playing my AWS-8Q with 3 PPCs and 1 SL.

I'm not unique in this regard. There are a lot of Tier 2 and Tier 3 players who are quite good, but who don't get the same PSR progression because they like to play less popular mechs and/or builds. And there are a lot of Tier 1 players who got to the top by almost exclusively playing heavy mechs, for example.

[Jehofi]

Lugh, on 27 January 2016 - 07:40 AM, said:

That you are using TAG and getting your own locks more often than not is a good thing.

Why should i get my own locks if there are good ones available? There is no need to face-tank the one im shooting at because he is likely seeking cover (to break the lock) and not shooting back anyway.

Dont get me wrong there is nothing that should prevent one getting LOS especial if you wielding the pure terror causing TAG. But if im in a good position and have targets that i can apply damage there is no need for me to possibly overextend and the jumped at.

[Alistair Winter]

x MT x, on 27 January 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

You realise though you preferably require 2 people to pull this off!

Requires a dedicated spotter that spams 'R' !

This was absent from the initial math

That is not my experience, no. It certainly helps to have people throw up UAVs and I do often score extra damage via indirect fire. Obviously, I do rely as much on my team as everybody else. But I do bring TAG for a reason, and I very often find team target locks to be unreliable unless a full brawl has broken out. It's so annoying when you have 120 LRMs flying through the air and your light mech spotter suddenly switches targets, leaving you with nothing. 10% of your ammo for that match, gone.

So yeah, I try to rely as much as possible on myself, just so I know that I'll maintain missile lock until all the birds have landed

[Slambert]

Results from last week of pug gameplay cannot be generalized when evaluating lrm efficiency.

1. Polar highlands came out. People are kinda learning how to protect themselves from LRM's on that map but noway near as efficient as other maps.
2. Polar highlands have higher rotation and people chose it often. First to try out the new map, then people started downvoting. Then the event came and people had to play Polar Highlands again.
3. Due to Polar Highlands people changed their builds. Lots more LRM's fielded and people where better to support the LRM players to enable the needed wins for the event.

I'm kinda thinking Polar Highlands will get downvoted a lot in the future. People will adapt/revert their builds again. LRM boats will have a harder time due to maps played and lack of lock on support.

I dont doubt the method worked great for farming cbills the last few days. Just saying I doubt it will be the same next weekend

[mogs01gt]

Slambert, on 27 January 2016 - 08:02 AM, said:

Results from last week of pug gameplay cannot be generalized when evaluating lrm efficiency.

1. Polar highlands came out. People are kinda learning how to protect themselves from LRM's on that map but noway near as efficient as other maps.
2. Polar highlands have higher rotation and people chose it often. First to try out the new map, then people started downvoting. Then the event came and people had to play Polar Highlands again.
3. Due to Polar Highlands people changed their builds. Lots more LRM's fielded and people where better to support the LRM players to enable the needed wins for the event.

I'm kinda thinking Polar Highlands will get downvoted a lot in the future. People will adapt/revert their builds again. LRM boats will have a harder time due to maps played and lack of lock on support.

I dont doubt the method worked great for farming cbills the last few days. Just saying I doubt it will be the same next weekend

In my experience, Frozen City gets picked over it.

[RoboPatton]

I hate running LRMs myself. But I respect their role on the battlefield. It really loses effectiveness the more skilled your opponent is, and at higher teirs likely has less return of value.

Meta they are not, but you can be strategic with them as op pointed out.

Most maps in mwo have copious ammounts of cover, another reason I hate to lurm.

I wish pgi could come up with a better more interactive system for lrms. Maybe that they have tighter damage in conjuction with narc, or something that makes tags/narcs more appealing and useful.

[Teslar Kain]

Novakaine, on 27 January 2016 - 07:26 AM, said:

Damn me mechbro stop givin away our secret!
Although I tend to run 2 LRM/15's, 2ML's and a six pack,
Awesome!!!!!!
Damn now I'm doing it.
On a side note smart teams know the value of a boat or two.
Anyone saying otherwise is simply obtuse.

[Hit the Deck]

Wait, I thought you wanted to reach T1 just by piloting Ravens.

[MeiSooHaityu]

mogs01gt, on 27 January 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

In my experience, Frozen City gets picked over it.

Frozen City is the Budweiser of MWO maps.

Both are somehow the preferred "king" choice of their respective product, yet both are very bland and lack the "flavor" of other choices. Regardless, people keep picking them .

OK, maybe it is a bit unfair calling Frozen City a Budweiser. Frozen city is better than that. Still, both get boring and bland.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 27 January 2016 - 09:24 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

If you can claim 30 matches in an LRM boat with a W/L of 1.71 means 'LRMs win matches' i can make the claim that a twin ERPPC sniper Shadow Cat (NOT a well renowned mech) wins games:



Points to note:

• Exclusively Solo queue (and CW, but that doesnt affect stats). I don't use this mech in group queue because its not very good there, and i want to keep its stats pure.
  
• Has always been run with 2xERPPC and ECM. Minor tweaks like both arm PPCs vs right sided and TC1 vs extra DHS, but thats it. (hence the lowish average dmg)
  
• Sample size is MUCH better than 30 games, and its only recently dropped below 2 W/L.

I cannot explain why it has such a good win/loss, i think it has to be a statistical anomaly, even after so many games..

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 27 January 2016 - 09:31 AM.

[JC Daxion]

You know it's funny how many people talk about damage to kill ratio.. For me, my highest damage, to lowest kill ratio are my energy boats.. TDR 5SS, and i run a laser timber.. I just never get kills on these mechs, or even most damage kills that often. sure i have good matches that i do but on average, they are more about DPS in the way i play them, not alpha's.

on the other hand my ballistics mechs average lower damage, yet i get way more solo kills, and kills in general with them.



But Why is it people still insist that LRM's are only back line mechs that don't take damage? Maybe not enough people play them more aggressive, but i certainly see people do it in game, outside of me. For one, closing with groups and being close make my missiles hit much more often. And two, i also can help give the enemy more targets, or take my time wasting a bit or armor so the brawlers are fresher for the final hard pushes.


For me, the easiest mechs to play are energy.. click on a pixel, and you hit.. LRMS are so far from that it's not even funny. A good LRM pilot is a huge asset in my experience. Heck some of the 12 man group drops, had me wanting to play my LRM mechs, because they are so good at holding locks.. i think i often would of done better than i did in my energy mechs, or so called Meta's at the time. Go figure..

every play style can be bad in the hands of a bad pilot..

Widowmaker1981, on 27 January 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

If you can claim 30 matches in an LRM boat with a W/L of 1.71 means 'LRMs win matches' i can make the claim that a twin ERPPC sniper Shadow Cat (NOT a well renowned mech) wins games:

This just in, a good pilot, playing a mech that suits their play style can help win games!!!! News at 11pm

Edited by JC Daxion, 27 January 2016 - 09:31 AM.

[Lightfoot]

You would do better with a bit more speed. LRMs are positional weapons so being in the right spot counts more than missile tubes. My highest paying game recently was 426,000 cbills, the mech did not carry any LRMs.

I understand why you want to escape to tier 1 though. It seems all the new players want to play MWO like CoD and those tactics do not work. Mechs have to use their mobile armor ability to create a focus-fire point. So many new players want to hide in the buildings or trenches and they just get surrounded. Or they run to the four corners chasing Lights or whatever. They don't seem to respond to simple formation commands like form up.

In close to three years I have been killed or badly damaged by LRMs around 30 times in thousands of games being shot at by them, usually they just hit the ground. It's just common sense, don't run right at LRM boats from across the map and such.

[Kyynele]

Alistair Winter, on 27 January 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

• I need to get to Tier 1 to reduce the average number of steering wheels on my team.

So that you won't be terribly disappointed, pretty much any time outside of prime time during an event, you're going to be playing with lower tiers.

Getting into T1 just means that the matchmaker won't ever put higher tier players in your team to carry you anymore. If anything, it guarantees that if you die early, you get to spectate people playing worse than you'd do.

[Alistair Winter]

Hit the Deck, on 27 January 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

Wait, I thought you wanted to reach T1 just by piloting Ravens.

Yeah, that was my plan long ago. But I quickly gave it up when I realized the climb from T2 to T1 was soo much slower than T3 to T2. I still may try to reach T1 with my Clan account using only my Shadowcat though.

Then again, maybe not. The sheer grind involved is kind of ridiculous.

[Ultimax]

Alistair Winter, on 27 January 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

PS: I do not think LRMs in MWO are well balanced, by the way. I think the missile lock mechanism needs to be redesigned to put more emphasis on aiming skills, and then you can increase missile speed and make LRMs good weapons for comp teams too. Right now, you need almost zero aiming skills, you only need a good sense of tactics and positioning to do well with LRMs. But that's a discussion for another time.

This is the key bit, especially that Reticule outside the box bit.


I really want LRMs to function more like "quasi-homing" ballistics that are

+ Fire and forget (can put reticule on target and snap off, no more face-staring)
+ Good travel times (faster velocities, think 400-600m/s)
+ No hard counters - only softer counters (ECM) that would negatively affect lock sequence and tracking, and AMS
+ Don't actually need a lock to fire and be used well*

However

- No auto-aim
- No huge elevation
- No indirect fire, or strictly controlled indirect fire
- longer cool-downs for the smaller tubes (min 4.5s, or normalize all of them around 5s mark after all they are "long ranged weapons" which was so often brought up by proponents of the Gauss nerf )



You wouldn't need a hard lock to fire, but the longer you are willing to risk the lock sequence the tighter the missile spread and the better tracking you would get.

So there would be a risk/reward feature with risking more facetime.

Tarogato, on 27 January 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

That's why LRMs are actually bad. It's right there in your data. =P

Crazy inefficient is relative, its inefficient from a damage/kill standpoint - but shared locks with high elevation is a type of force multiplication that literally no other weapon in the game is allowed to have. On top of the efficiency of saving your own armor through indirect fire.

One mech spotting you allows every single LRM to be fired on you, that's what makes them obnoxious on weekend events.


This is why LRMs are badly designed, this is why we say they are feast or famine.

They are bad in many instances and ridiculous in the situations where they have advantage - two extremes that are toxic to gameplay, and even bad for players using them (teach bad habits to new players, and creates wrong headed thinking on how they are supposed to be used).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 27 January 2016 - 10:36 AM.