135 replies to this topic

[Monkey Lover]

pbiggz, on 30 January 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

I like that you left heat out of that equation to fit your narrative. Yes they all do more damage, and I wont comment on whether they should or not, though I believe the key to IS vs Clan differentiation isn't more damage/heat vs less damage/heat, but making the delivery system unique, but you've left out a massive part of the equation.

IS laser vomit has longer range, shorter burn times, and lower heat than clan for slightly less damage. Slightly less. If IS laser vomit gets reigned in slightly, and thats exactly whats happening here, its getting reigned in slightly, then its still top teir good, you just wont see HHOD sitting in their drop poking with ER larges anymore because they're too chicken **** to come out of their drop zone on boreal. It reinforces better play, not mechregsurn kcom boogieman brawl play, but better play.

And even if IS laser vomit got a major nerf, is is still better than clan right now because IS has massive structure quirks. Knock down the quickdraw and the blackjack and you still have basically +-30% structure across the board on most IS mechs, the few exceptions being gross oversights on PGI's part, or paul balancing for paul tier (note the cataphract still has basically no quirks, because it was a good mech in 2013).


TLDR, you're pushing a narrative because any clan buffs are offensive to you. Go play harebrained schemes battletech if you want tech 1 3025. Im going to play it, it looks like a ton of fun, but its not this game. This game has clans in it, I like the clans. I like the IS too, i'd like them balanced, so shut up, and let PGI at least try to balance them, rather than starting a riot every time the clans get even a sliver of a buff.

Slightly less? 28% more for mediums , 18% for er , 33% for er ppc.

Heat?
Clan er ppc does more dmg per heat
Er lasers are balanced
And ex mediums does 6% more heat but at the same time has 33% more range.

Of course once you add in 2 slot dhs , clans have crazy low heat for the dmg they do.


structure quirks are there to make up for clan XL engines. I don't see 3 lasers worth or armor that ends up getting crit because of clans target computers worth very much.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 30 January 2016 - 12:10 PM.

[pbiggz]

Monkey Lover, on 30 January 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

Slightly less? 28% more for mediums , 18% for er , 33% for er ppc.

Heat?
Clan er ppc does more dmg per heat
Er lasers are balanced
And ex mediums does 6% more heat but at the same time has 33% more range.

Of course once you add in 2 slot dhs , clans have crazy low heat for the dmg they do.


structure quirks are there to make up for clan XL engines. I don't see 3 lasers worth or armor that ends up getting crit because of clans target computers worth very much.

If you fire more than one clan ER PPC on anything smaller than a 90 tonner you have crippling heat to deal with.

Im not sorry to tell you this but this "clans are balanced" narrative you're pushing is fictional. They're both more fragile and hotter than the IS.

Now I will say they are alot better than some clan loyalists lead them on to be, but to say they are balanced now is just a lie plain and simple. You're pushing an agenda because you dont want to see the clans get buffed. Stop it.

[Monkey Lover]

pbiggz, on 30 January 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

If you fire more than one clan ER PPC on anything smaller than a 90 tonner you have crippling heat to deal with.

Im not sorry to tell you this but this "clans are balanced" narrative you're pushing is fictional. They're both more fragile and hotter than the IS.

Now I will say they are alot better than some clan loyalists lead them on to be, but to say they are balanced now is just a lie plain and simple. You're pushing an agenda because you dont want to see the clans get buffed. Stop it.

It's basic math, I own both clan and IS I will run clans during group Q like most people do because they're better and I will only fight IS v IS in cw because it balanced.

I still have no idea what you're talking about with er ppcs . yes they're hot and you shouldn't use them. But if you do use them put them on a clan mech you will get more dmg. Put them on a clan mech with 2 slot dhs and you will gets lots more. They both make 10 heat......

Edited by Monkey Lover, 30 January 2016 - 12:21 PM.

[BigFatGator]

Monkey Lover, on 30 January 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

So if everyone keep repeating this they will start to believe it....
Clan lasers deal more damage they have a longer duration!!!!!!

Er laser 9 dmg for 1.25 seconds. O.138 seconds per dmg
Cer laser 11 dmg for 1.5second. 0.136 seconds per dmg. (Better than is. but balanced)
Medium 5dmg for 0.9 seconds. 0.18 seconds for 1 dmg
C medium 7dmg. 1.15 second. 0.164 sec per dmg. ( clans lot better)

Only weapon as I remember that has a lower duration per dmg is the lpl

The clan erppc does around 30% more dmg per heat compared to the IS. Clan ppc is a much better weapon and less weight.

You are correct, except that pretty much noone currently plays IS Lasers on mechs that don't have large range, duration, cooldown, or heat quirks!

I'd rather PGI just does away with the global laser quirks for mechs and changes the weapon values to make IS and Clan tech roughly equal (but different) and gives structure quirks to IS mechs to account for Clan XL based on their hitboxes and hardpoint issues (e.g Jagermech not so much, Orions bigtime).

[Pjwned]

Terrorsdawn, on 29 January 2016 - 11:54 PM, said:

When I buy a product, (yes each mech, mech pack or bundle we buy is a product) we buy it for certain reasons. To have the people that sold it to us decide they want to screw with it, change it or modify it, they are changing the product. I am sick of ending up with mechs, I once loved stripped and sitting in my warehouse waiting for them to maybe one day be restored to something close to what I bought in the first place. I feel like I have been the victim of a bate and switch scam.

Cry more salty butt tears.

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 30 January 2016 - 12:57 AM, said:

As for the OP, why is it when all the big units are on Clan side, the reason Clans are winning is because, "Clan mechs OP," yet when IS is stomping Clans because the big units are IS, it's because, "All the big units are IS?"

It's a small change for most mechs. The RVN-4X and a few other mega-ranged mechs will suffer from the nerf to energy range, but all in all these changes are actually relatively small, and we should be pleased PGI is focusing on smaller changes, and not as many all at once.

That pic may just become my wallpaper.

Variance in burn time may be a bit of an issue but I dunno. Is it just range on lasers getting dialed back?

The reality is that the extra 15% range had little impact outside play between skilled teams. 30m range difference doesn't have much impact for people who never look at the range anyway.

What we're seeing is more about population changes in those good teams from faction to faction in response to the changes. Balance for IS comes up, tons of good and better players go to IS to try it out, Clan terribads now left alone to die in the wild.

Their response is to blame balance changes not their 4x LRM deck - that LRM Adder always worked before!

It's not that IS range got this sudden, massive boost. It's that the number of IS players who knew how to use that range got a boost and the number of Clan players who could cope with it declined.

Certainly it needed adjusting but the actual difference for regular players is minimal. The inevitable influx of teams back to Clans to try a TBR with no negatives will make them think it was the quirk change that has them in winning matches again.

Got your carrying gloves on?

[Chados]

Wait, hold the phone.

How'd the 22d Argyles end up going LCAF? Speaking of alternate reality moments....

[Evan20k]

Dear devs: Please nerf scissors. Rock is balanced though.

Sincerely, Paper

[J0anna]

Monkey Lover, on 30 January 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

So if everyone keep repeating this they will start to believe it....
Clan lasers deal more damage they have a longer duration!!!!!!

Er laser 9 dmg for 1.25 seconds. O.138 seconds per dmg
Cer laser 11 dmg for 1.5second. 0.136 seconds per dmg. (Better than is. but balanced)
Medium 5dmg for 0.9 seconds. 0.18 seconds for 1 dmg
C medium 7dmg. 1.15 second. 0.164 sec per dmg. ( clans lot better)

Only weapon as I remember that has a lower duration per dmg is the lpl

The clan erppc does around 30% more dmg per heat compared to the IS. Clan ppc is a much better weapon and less weight.

Not even close to telling the whole story. Why not include all the facts:

1) Almost every IS mech that uses lasers as a primary weapons get heat reduction quirks.
2) Most also get laser burn time reduction quirks.
3) IS Double heat sinks are flat out better than clan double heat sinks allowing more alphas.
4) IS Mechs can shoot 3 Large lasers w/o ghost heat.
5) IS mechs have more structure than clan mechs and thus can take more damage.

You can't look at just weapons and balance around that, because that's not how PGI does it. They balance around the mech, i.e. the final package. A huge majority of clan mechs got nerfed into uselessness in December. Not the Timberwolf or the Storm Crow, but a majority of Clan Mechs are complete liabilities to any team they drop with. When you see a Shadow Cat on your team, are you glad your teammate brought that mech, or would you prefer he brought a Blackjack?

Finally, I didn't see anywhere in the Town Hall where Russ said they were removing specific energy quirks. I have to listen again, but he could well have meant that mechs will still get 10% to specific (for example medium) lasers and 10% to all lasers, just that the latter will be limited to 10%.

[MauttyKoray]

As an IS origin player who plays Clan CW and pilots his IS mechs in the Quick Play Queue on downtime - THIS WAS NEEDED.

I have mechs with Large Lasers that can outrange clans, that's not right. Clans use ER lasers, a standard LL shouldn't be competing with it, the ERLL maybe, just a tad shorter but then the CERLL also has a longer burn time AND YES IT DOES MATTER. That's a huge DoT spread that can nullify part of or roll its damage.

While the 10% may have been a kneejerk (15% maybe?) you have to remember there is also the range module for weapons as well. All of that ALSO has to be taken into consideration when making these balance changes, as the extra boost from the modules was making several IS mechs gain a significant advantage with longer range lasers that have a lower burn time, thus better damage at the extremeties of their range with less mitigation from rolling or cover.

Oh wait, I forgot, a good portion of the MWO community doesn't want balance, they want their own systems to be better. Hence why my entire lasers balance/range write-up was dismissed with people complaining that their tech wouldn't be superior.

[MischiefSC]

Chados, on 30 January 2016 - 01:03 PM, said:

Wait, hold the phone.

How'd the 22d Argyles end up going LCAF? Speaking of alternate reality moments....

I'm on mech bay and Arbys menu research tour.

I picked up critical data on bacon thickness while on tour with FWL, did a short sting in CJF but had to bug out because they were terrible. Now I'm in Lyran space picking up Sammich assembly efficiencies. Also some incredible advances in jamocha shake mixing technology the NAIS was unaware of.

Doing the full tour. Will investigate dipping sauce in Liao and Kurita, how to make everything alcoholic in FRR. Will learn customer service in Smoke Jaguar - their approach to making happy customers in Turtle Bay was hard to argue with. At least I was unable to reach any survivors willing to express dissatisfaction after the fact.

[Alec Braca]

IS is not OP, but the IS did not get screwed again.
Clan is superior but not as OP as Clan pilots want but still have better equipment because they should.

OP why did you stir up the hornets nest again!!!?

Edited by Alec Braca, 30 January 2016 - 02:07 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

J0anna, on 30 January 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

Not even close to telling the whole story. Why not include all the facts:

1) Almost every IS mech that uses lasers as a primary weapons get heat reduction quirks.
2) Most also get laser burn time reduction quirks.
3) IS Double heat sinks are flat out better than clan double heat sinks allowing more alphas.
4) IS Mechs can shoot 3 Large lasers w/o ghost heat.
5) IS mechs have more structure than clan mechs and thus can take more damage.

You can't look at just weapons and balance around that, because that's not how PGI does it. They balance around the mech, i.e. the final package. A huge majority of clan mechs got nerfed into uselessness in December. Not the Timberwolf or the Storm Crow, but a majority of Clan Mechs are complete liabilities to any team they drop with. When you see a Shadow Cat on your team, are you glad your teammate brought that mech, or would you prefer he brought a Blackjack?

Finally, I didn't see anywhere in the Town Hall where Russ said they were removing specific energy quirks. I have to listen again, but he could well have meant that mechs will still get 10% to specific (for example medium) lasers and 10% to all lasers, just that the latter will be limited to 10%.

So every clanner saying "our weapons are worse" are taking into account IS quirks now? Yes after you add in less heat ,durations and range you start to get loadouts that are balanced thais is the point.

When you say remove all quirks because clan "burn time " is longer or "our heat is more" is not true.

People still don't take into account how most these mega quirked mechs have like 1 or 2 hardpoints. It's only a few with setups to even use them. So if these few are op nerf them. They're not clan mechs they don't have 10-13 energy hard points.

Most specific energy quirks were removed to genetic quirks ontop of most got a smaller nerf at the same time. Russ didn't want only quirk builds but sounds like he might be going back to just this.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 30 January 2016 - 02:03 PM.

[Aresye]

Monkey Lover, on 30 January 2016 - 11:46 AM, said:

So if everyone keep repeating this they will start to believe it....
Clan lasers deal more damage they have a longer duration!!!!!!

Er laser 9 dmg for 1.25 seconds. O.138 seconds per dmg
Cer laser 11 dmg for 1.5second. 0.136 seconds per dmg. (Better than is. but balanced)
Medium 5dmg for 0.9 seconds. 0.18 seconds for 1 dmg
C medium 7dmg. 1.15 second. 0.164 sec per dmg. ( clans lot better)

Only weapon as I remember that has a lower duration per dmg is the lpl

The clan erppc does around 30% more dmg per heat compared to the IS. Clan ppc is a much better weapon and less weight.

IS ERLL (Default Duration): 0.72 damage every 0.1s
Clan ERLL (Default Duration): 0.73 damage every 0.1s
Clan Advantage = 0.01 damage for every 0.1s held on target.

RVN-4X w/ -30% laser duration: 1.03 damage every 0.1s
QKD-5K w/ -10% laser duration: 0.8 damage every 0.1s

The SHC has the best laser duration quirks for the Clans, with the total potential of a whopping 5% reduction off the CERLL. Let's see how that stacks up, eh?

SHC w/ -5% laser duration: 0.77 damage every 0.1s

So there you have it. No matter what Clan mech you face, as long as you have any IS mech with at least a -10% laser duration quirk, you are going to do more damage every 0.1s you hold your lasers on target, assuming you're firing an equal number of ERLL on each side.

You get to keep the energy cooldown, energy heat generation, laser duration, structure, and agility quirks on pretty much every mech that has them. You will literally still hold the advantage in long range because of this.

The only thing that's changed is you'll no longer have a 200m+ advantage over the CERLL's max range on top of the dmg/0.1s advantage you already have for the majority of long range IS mechs.

Sheesh, talk about having the cake and wanting to eat it too.

[MauttyKoray]

Monkey Lover, on 30 January 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

So every clanner saying "our weapons are worse" are taking into account IS quirks now? Yes after you add in less heat ,durations and range you start to get loadouts that are balanced thais is the point.

When you say remove all quirks because clan "burn time " is longer or "our heat is more" is not true.

People still don't take into account how most these mega quirked mechs have like 1 or 2 hardpoints. It's only a few with setups to even use them. So if these few are op nerf them. They're not clan mechs they don't have 10-13 energy hard points.

Most specific energy quirks were removed to genetic quirks ontop of most got a smaller nerf at the same time. Russ didn't want only quirk builds but sounds like he might be going back to just this.

Here's the problem:

Quirks have created outliers that perform better than others.
Outliers are the only things taken for CW.
Call for "X Faction's stuff is better, nerf plz" goes out.

Overall its not the entire weapon systems that are the problem (actually they are, they still need to be balanced better before reapplying quirks, but whatever) but that the quirks were applied and these mechs came into existence.

THAT is why the BLANKET NERF is occurring, reducing the GENERAL quirk and Russ stated that CATEGORY or WEAPON quirks will be made to compensate the mechs needing them from the loss of the general quirk percentage.

Say a mech got +20% energy range, or even laser range. That's a boost to ALL weapons in that category. A LL or ERLL gets a MASSIVE boost of that while the smalls still suffer quite a bit and the mediums get a fairly 'meh' boost in comparison. The problem is the longer range weapons get a much higher boost than the lower range ones from general quirks.

Now think of this: Instead of that if a mech is meant to play with Lasers (black knight for instance) but the SLs and MLs need a decent boost without making the LL/ERLLs overpowered, have a general quirk for +10% and then ON TOP of that add an extra 5-10% for both the smalls and mediums.

That makes a LOT more sense than blanket buffing/nerfing using quirks. Small general quirks to give bonuses to the weapon category intended for the mech with small quirks giving slight bonuses to the underperforming weapons in that same category.

This would avoid the quirk-build problem more effectively as it would target specific weapons to 'improve', but instead to 'compensate' within the same category.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 30 January 2016 - 03:01 PM.

[Surn]

Aresye, on 30 January 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

IS ERLL (Default Duration): 0.72 damage every 0.1s
Clan ERLL (Default Duration): 0.73 damage every 0.1s
Clan Advantage = 0.01 damage for every 0.1s held on target.

RVN-4X w/ -30% laser duration: 1.03 damage every 0.1s
QKD-5K w/ -10% laser duration: 0.8 damage every 0.1s

The SHC has the best laser duration quirks for the Clans, with the total potential of a whopping 5% reduction off the CERLL. Let's see how that stacks up, eh?

SHC w/ -5% laser duration: 0.77 damage every 0.1s

So there you have it. No matter what Clan mech you face, as long as you have any IS mech with at least a -10% laser duration quirk, you are going to do more damage every 0.1s you hold your lasers on target, assuming you're firing an equal number of ERLL on each side.

You get to keep the energy cooldown, energy heat generation, laser duration, structure, and agility quirks on pretty much every mech that has them. You will literally still hold the advantage in long range because of this.

The only thing that's changed is you'll no longer have a 200m+ advantage over the CERLL's max range on top of the dmg/0.1s advantage you already have for the majority of long range IS mechs.

Sheesh, talk about having the cake and wanting to eat it too.

You are talking about a few IS mechs vs ALL sizes, armor and loadouts of clan mechs. Wh0 would compare one IS mech in order to make ALL clan mechs superior in every category?

Those 2 erll ravens are not exactly big in CW.

Edited by MechregSurn, 30 January 2016 - 03:02 PM.

[Tyman4]

Well those atlases...I mean BJ's...were a little over the top. Not to mention getting lit up from 1500 meters, out of range of nearly ANY clan "ubermensch" tech...

Freaking hell, I love my clan mechs, but just dropping the IS with builds designed with the quirks in mind was soooo easy. Just Super Cheesy.

Ilya dual gauss optimum range ~900 m with tons of ammo and good movement speed.
Quickdraw erlls...
BJ armor buffs...
Shadowhawks with 25% ballistic coodown reduction stacked with modules...

I mean come on...
At some point they need to just unlock clan tech for IS as the timeline proceeds...

But CW has no point...y would I bother taking planets that have no incentives and no perpetuity. Y do We even have group coffers? you still can't even use them...

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 30 January 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

IS ERLL (Default Duration): 0.72 damage every 0.1s
Clan ERLL (Default Duration): 0.73 damage every 0.1s
Clan Advantage = 0.01 damage for every 0.1s held on target.

RVN-4X w/ -30% laser duration: 1.03 damage every 0.1s
QKD-5K w/ -10% laser duration: 0.8 damage every 0.1s

The SHC has the best laser duration quirks for the Clans, with the total potential of a whopping 5% reduction off the CERLL. Let's see how that stacks up, eh?

SHC w/ -5% laser duration: 0.77 damage every 0.1s

So there you have it. No matter what Clan mech you face, as long as you have any IS mech with at least a -10% laser duration quirk, you are going to do more damage every 0.1s you hold your lasers on target, assuming you're firing an equal number of ERLL on each side.

You get to keep the energy cooldown, energy heat generation, laser duration, structure, and agility quirks on pretty much every mech that has them. You will literally still hold the advantage in long range because of this.

The only thing that's changed is you'll no longer have a 200m+ advantage over the CERLL's max range on top of the dmg/0.1s advantage you already have for the majority of long range IS mechs.

Sheesh, talk about having the cake and wanting to eat it too.

You're missing the point though. 90% of players play MWO under Rules of Queensbury. The only time duration impacts them is when they're shooting at a running target.

Damage/tic at a couple of points per trade are irrelevant to actual performance in standard play.

What is critical is that it's enough to get the competitive, or at least competent, players back into Clan robbits to lead and carry.

Play in comp tier MRBC matches has about as much direct influence on regular game play as the dress Kim Kardashian wore does to redneck fashion. You'll get a few bad imitations on brother/sister prom night and people will try to replicate it to try and look cool but actual performance won't change.

What matters is where the heavy lifters play.

So the question becomes how do you get a reasonably even balance of the competitive players on each side? Cuz the "everyone went Clans cuz Clans OP" Then "lol everyone go IS cuz IS op" thing is what got us split queues.

Will this be enough? What needs to happen to get the comp balance in a place that keeps the population of good teams spread out?

[Monkey Lover]

Aresye, on 30 January 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

IS ERLL (Default Duration): 0.72 damage every 0.1s
Clan ERLL (Default Duration): 0.73 damage every 0.1s
Clan Advantage = 0.01 damage for every 0.1s held on target.

RVN-4X w/ -30% laser duration: 1.03 damage every 0.1s
QKD-5K w/ -10% laser duration: 0.8 damage every 0.1s

The SHC has the best laser duration quirks for the Clans, with the total potential of a whopping 5% reduction off the CERLL. Let's see how that stacks up, eh?

SHC w/ -5% laser duration: 0.77 damage every 0.1s

So there you have it. No matter what Clan mech you face, as long as you have any IS mech with at least a -10% laser duration quirk, you are going to do more damage every 0.1s you hold your lasers on target, assuming you're firing an equal number of ERLL on each side.

You get to keep the energy cooldown, energy heat generation, laser duration, structure, and agility quirks on pretty much every mech that has them. You will literally still hold the advantage in long range because of this.

The only thing that's changed is you'll no longer have a 200m+ advantage over the CERLL's max range on top of the dmg/0.1s advantage you already have for the majority of long range IS mechs.

Sheesh, talk about having the cake and wanting to eat it too.

Well unless it's a medium laser than 10% duration is about the same but is still out ranged with 25% quirks. So yes there is balance issue with weapons on both sides and blanket nerfs aren't fixing it.

[Celtic Warrior IS]

Another cry baby thread! Time for mommy to put you to bed.