1094 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

Imperius, on 13 February 2016 - 07:42 AM, said:

I already do the latter. As for the topic at hand 47 pages of fighting is a failure in moderation if you ask me.

Then you would have no issues with the OP's proposal.

[Ramseti]

Kuritaclan, on 12 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

And now tell me where is the difrence between your inaccuracy and the accuracy in the novels? As depicted in the BT Universe. Both is equal.

I gave example after example in the other thread on how wrong you are. In the novels there are 0 instances of any pinpoint accurate fights. Don't bring your shenanigans to this thread as well.

[Kuritaclan]

Ramseti, on 13 February 2016 - 11:45 AM, said:

I gave example after example in the other thread on how wrong you are. In the novels there are 0 instances of any pinpoint accurate fights. Don't bring your shenanigans to this thread as well.

With hitboxes as large as cars it is wayne if you see 4 laser are spot on or 5cm off or 20cm off each other. With pixel as they are you can not even tell the difference between 10cm. Every little mouse movement or movement yourself or by enemy translat into deviation in many Decimeter. And thats nothing else as the novels describe. Beside that most authors exaggerate for drama. And no directed lasers will not hit 4m appart from each other as acs won't in a stand off. You are bitching about something that is built in the game allready. And it is plausible to converge as we have it.

http://i1026.photobu...qv.png~original

And when i read this great arguments like Hotthedd provided:

Quote

You realize of course that the COF cuts both ways, lights would enjoy a higher TTK. Sure, firing 6 SPLs would stop you from coring rear CTs in 2 shots, but chain fire would still let you keep precision.

I and many others eaxactly know what it needs to be as "anti convergency" / cof to not hit a rear ct that is by a hitbox 1m wide. If a light is not allowed at 6 SPL range ~150-200m to hit accurate - this is the real shenanigans. And put that aside even if convergence would be thrown out the game you only would doom half of the mechs and make others who have bunched up hardpoints the lords of mwo. And this is not talking about if it is technically doable for pgi with their servers and game code to be rewritten.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 13 February 2016 - 04:16 PM.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

bump because of interest

anything to get rid of pinpoint laser vomit

but why cant we also get high heat myomer malfunction, chance for reactor cook-off, and mild version of knockdowns?

Edited by Thunderbird Anthares, 13 February 2016 - 03:17 PM.

[Ratpoison]

TexAce, on 08 February 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:

Given Convergence can't be fixed by PGI while still keeping HSR in tact, I think CoF is the way to go, to finally balance this game right. Insta-Converging-Pinpoint-Damage just needs to go, I'm a strong believer of this.

So that's why I made this little proposal how to change our crosshair and implement an intelligent CoF principle, which adds to the game's mechanics, is plausible and is not killing the "skill" in this game alltogether.

My proposal is a slight CoF which can be reduced with different items in the game and skill tree perks, but which can also increase if you push your heat too much or alpha your weapons

Introducing the Min-Max-CoF-Proposal

Here is a comparison of the old/actual crosshair we have now and the different states the new crosshair could have, depending on the pilot's skill, items and heat/firing conditions.



Keep in ming the min CoF is there to still keep the Crosshair's center open, since it would be neither visually pleasing nor help if the CoF would always be a full filled circle.

The actual Cof would include the inner circle.


As you see the CoF is still so small, that you could easily pick an enemie's Limb or ST if he is less than 200m away, probably even out to 300-400m, if you are not alphaing.

In detail:



(if ghost heat is activated, it automatically increases your max CoF)

So skilled and fully equipped mechs could still maintain a pinpoint behaviour if they play wise but it would not be usable all the time during combat, only on special situations.

We have a CoF at the moment on MGs, so the code is there, it would also not interfere with HSR and it would not be hard to implement. Actually the "Reduce CoF" code is already in the game, since some mechs had it as a perk for MGs.

With the new skill tree this could easily be expanded or simplified further and it would help balance the game tremendously.

Keep in mind at the moment my proposal does not differ between arm or torso-mounted weapons. But it could easily be changed to arm-mounted weapons always using only the min CoF

Here a slightly altered version which takes moving/standing into consideration (the min CoF radius while standing is only 50% of the min CoF when moving).



Very rough examples, not the exact numbers I propose, just 4u to get the idea



My idea is based on screen space, thats why the reticule stays the same when zoomed in (and because I think this is simpler and easier to understand). Alternatively it could also be based on meters. So alpha'ing your weapons while riding the heat bar at 99% and without any equpment or skills which imporove your CoF, it could be set at 20 meters (just as an example). This would have the benefit that no matter how far away your opponent is, the maximum your weapons could fire away from the center of your crosshair would be 20m. So a target 1000m away would still very likely be hit as long as you aim at him dead center.

Why do we need to keep bumping this? Look at it, it's just ugly at this point.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

because hope dies last?

i just want the laser vomit to end, is that so much to ask? :-)

[Ratpoison]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 13 February 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

because hope dies last?

i just want the laser vomit to end, is that so much to ask? :-)

There are dozens of simpler ways to approach that balance problem without breaking the game.

TexAce, on 08 February 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:

Given Convergence can't be fixed by PGI while still keeping HSR in tact, I think CoF is the way to go, to finally balance this game right. Insta-Converging-Pinpoint-Damage just needs to go, I'm a strong believer of this.

So that's why I made this little proposal how to change our crosshair and implement an intelligent CoF principle, which adds to the game's mechanics, is plausible and is not killing the "skill" in this game alltogether.

My proposal is a slight CoF which can be reduced with different items in the game and skill tree perks, but which can also increase if you push your heat too much or alpha your weapons

Introducing the Min-Max-CoF-Proposal

Here is a comparison of the old/actual crosshair we have now and the different states the new crosshair could have, depending on the pilot's skill, items and heat/firing conditions.



Keep in ming the min CoF is there to still keep the Crosshair's center open, since it would be neither visually pleasing nor help if the CoF would always be a full filled circle.

The actual Cof would include the inner circle.


As you see the CoF is still so small, that you could easily pick an enemie's Limb or ST if he is less than 200m away, probably even out to 300-400m, if you are not alphaing.

In detail:



(if ghost heat is activated, it automatically increases your max CoF)

So skilled and fully equipped mechs could still maintain a pinpoint behaviour if they play wise but it would not be usable all the time during combat, only on special situations.

We have a CoF at the moment on MGs, so the code is there, it would also not interfere with HSR and it would not be hard to implement. Actually the "Reduce CoF" code is already in the game, since some mechs had it as a perk for MGs.

With the new skill tree this could easily be expanded or simplified further and it would help balance the game tremendously.

Keep in mind at the moment my proposal does not differ between arm or torso-mounted weapons. But it could easily be changed to arm-mounted weapons always using only the min CoF

Here a slightly altered version which takes moving/standing into consideration (the min CoF radius while standing is only 50% of the min CoF when moving).



Very rough examples, not the exact numbers I propose, just 4u to get the idea



My idea is based on screen space, thats why the reticule stays the same when zoomed in (and because I think this is simpler and easier to understand). Alternatively it could also be based on meters. So alpha'ing your weapons while riding the heat bar at 99% and without any equpment or skills which imporove your CoF, it could be set at 20 meters (just as an example). This would have the benefit that no matter how far away your opponent is, the maximum your weapons could fire away from the center of your crosshair would be 20m. So a target 1000m away would still very likely be hit as long as you aim at him dead center.

This monstrosity is not one.

[EAP10]

OP, I get your idea, the visuals you added really helped. While sure, things may need to be tweaked and changed, I can see you put a lot of effort into this, and it makes sense. Since you are able to still get precise aim if you have patience, it's not like every shot you make is "up 2 the rng gods" like people say it is.
A sniper after these changes would have to have more targeting equipment, yes, but they can still reliably hit their target at range. I think it's a well thought out, good idea, that sure, may needs some tweaks, but to me is looking pretty good.

[Ratpoison]

EAP10, on 13 February 2016 - 04:06 PM, said:

OP, I get your idea, the visuals you added really helped. While sure, things may need to be tweaked and changed, I can see you put a lot of effort into this, and it makes sense. Since you are able to still get precise aim if you have patience, it's not like every shot you make is "up 2 the rng gods" like people say it is.
A sniper after these changes would have to have more targeting equipment, yes, but they can still reliably hit their target at range. I think it's a well thought out, good idea, that sure, may needs some tweaks, but to me is looking pretty good.

Did you consider the absurd amount of work it would require to implement such a system?

TexAce, on 08 February 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:

(...)

The inflation of this post is important. Look at all the needless additions. UI updates, new backend systems, new stats to implement, new modules, new uses for gear...and all this time and money spent to do what? Break up the laser alpha meta that stems from the simple fact that laser burn times and heat costs are not high enough to match their damage output when combined? Wouldn't it make more sense to tweak numbers on lasers in a test environment, instead of spending tens of thousands of dollars on needless systems that have suspect usefulness?

Edited by Catalina Steiner, 02 March 2016 - 05:42 AM.

[pbiggz]

I will now finish this thread.

Nobody wants instant perfect convergence, but this thread is apparently about nerfing aim. OP has a well presented proposal, with zero numbers. You kind of need numbers when you IMPLEMENT a system in game. Having such a broad, wide reaching system that will effect both balance and hit reg code requires months of intensive analysis, testing, and changes. We will never see cone of fire in this game, because we will never see any modifications to HSR and hit reg code in this game. PGI has no interest in revisiting it, nor should they. Its expensive, time consuming, and ties up their engineers and programmers who are at this point, much better utilized on new features such as phase 3, the engine upgrade, and PVE.

Overall, this thread seems to be about nerfing people who aim better than you now. That is silly. Git gud.




/thread

this is now a spiderman thread

[Imperius]

agreed

[Alex Morgaine]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 08 February 2016 - 05:11 PM, said:

The sway isn't send it off to a random corner, the weapons still go to the center of the crosshair. It's just that by moving, your mech begins to sway, which means the crosshair begins to sway left to right and up to down some. The faster you go, the more it sways.

It's actually in the 3PV mode, your crosshair sways as you run, and the faster you run, the more vigorous it sways.

In my (admittedly, low quality) video here, you can see the difference in the snow that the reticle sway makes with the laser lines, like it's almost writing a line of cursive 'e's in the snow.

Linky Linky

More of a "w" but yeah, that is say I'm 3pv but in 1pv...

I'd like to see that placed into 1pv actually, that alone might change the way people vomit just from sway effecting accuracy.

[pyrocomp]

Kuritaclan, on 13 February 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

With hitboxes as large as cars it is wayne if you see 4 laser are spot on or 5cm off or 20cm off each other. With pixel as they are you can not even tell the difference between 10cm. Every little mouse movement or movement yourself or by enemy translat into deviation in many Decimeter. And thats nothing else as the novels describe. Beside that most authors exaggerate for drama. And no directed lasers will not hit 4m appart from each other as acs won't in a stand off. You are bitching about something that is built in the game allready. And it is plausible to converge as we have it.

http://i1026.photobu...qv.png~original

And when i read this great arguments like Hotthedd provided:

I and many others eaxactly know what it needs to be as "anti convergency" / cof to not hit a rear ct that is by a hitbox 1m wide. If a light is not allowed at 6 SPL range ~150-200m to hit accurate - this is the real shenanigans. And put that aside even if convergence would be thrown out the game you only would doom half of the mechs and make others who have bunched up hardpoints the lords of mwo. And this is not talking about if it is technically doable for pgi with their servers and game code to be rewritten.

Thechnically CoF is doable and isn't complicated. And now you are blowing it out of proportions that at 200m SPLs should be a shotgun. But if to take your point that any reasonable CoF is just a pixel or two at 1000 m, then the only other option to get rid of laser-vomit is to heavily nerf lasers by halving their gamage (arbitrary value here and below) or doubling their heat and/or tripling dureation. The TT crowd will go wild (but they have aiming instead of random hit locations and go smooth with it) and both options sound 'meh'. In any case, anti-CoF crowd, what are your proposals to tone laser usage down not touching 'enforced chainfire', 'reactor power' (as this will need a good chunk of code) and 'sized hardpoints' (has less support than CoF but is much easier to implement). Add more effects to the weapons other than lasers? Or what else? Or your point is 'it's ok now' (also a viable opinion)?

[1Grimbane]

SInce this thread is dead i will just put this here:

[FupDup]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 13 February 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

i just want the laser vomit to end, is that so much to ask? :-)

Two things about that:

1. The proposal as seen in the OP of this thread will also hit PPCs (aka not meta) very hard, along with mixed builds using energy + ballistics (not usually meta).

2. Missiles would be the least affected because LRMs/Streaks are computer-guided anyways and SRMs fire buckshots (already spread). So, expect a new SRM meta for people to complain about and beg for SRMs to be nerfed (again).

[MachoMan Randy Savage YEEAAHH]

Heard some of you needed some macho madness YEEAAHH!

[Kuritaclan]

pyrocomp, on 13 February 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

Thechnically CoF is doable and isn't complicated. And now you are blowing it out of proportions that at 200m SPLs should be a shotgun.

Sry i don't blew it out of proportion. I only say what are the consequences, if Hotthedd statement would mean with Cof or Cconvergency would be translated into game mechanics. It would essentially make it a unpredictable shotgun shooter.

pyrocomp, on 13 February 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

But if to take your point that any reasonable CoF is just a pixel or two at 1000 m, then the only other option to get rid of laser-vomit is to heavily nerf lasers by halving their gamage (arbitrary value here and below) or doubling their heat and/or tripling dureation.

Well it is some more pixels in best case like 1 meter in the game engine is equal to 33 pixel @ 4k/32" screen, what makes a deviation by 6,22 mm on the actuall screen. However not all gamers have such good gaming rigs. With 1080p and 24" it is 4,68 mm. Roughly 1/4 less accuracy for the same player with different rigs if the mouse is the same.

Lasers are quite awesome. If you say they have a deviation to each other with a radius of 5cm this is 1pixel at 1080p/24" @ 1000m. If you say it is 30cm (Looks high to me since it is 3 times what the "real life" laser system had to explode the 8,5 cm mortar shell) you have 5 pixel you won't notice the difference, since you need to move the mouse only a bit more than 1mm for it. And 25 to 30cm deviation is pretty much the COF radius of modern Tank Ammunition @ 1000m.

See all i wanna have is some "realism" in this simulation. And out of my understanding, even many have another approach, our eye hand coordination on the pc simulates somewhat the inaccuracy enough as shown by those examples.

pyrocomp, on 13 February 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

The TT crowd will go wild (but they have aiming instead of random hit locations and go smooth with it) and both options sound 'meh'.

The least thing i want the game to become is a rng/dice simulator. I mean i'm pretty much amused. There are ideas floating around to make "alphas" bigger than ~20 - 25 bad, i get it that some people have problem with it (I also get caught in bad situations), however a Stock KGC with dual AC 20 get the short stick, if we come around with such things. I mean you need to stretch Cof and or convergence pretty much to not let two rounds of AC 20 hit the same Torso section. And allways be remembered, if you fix one thing another creeps upward, see FupDups post #957.

pyrocomp, on 13 February 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

In any case, anti-CoF crowd, what are your proposals to tone laser usage down not touching 'enforced chainfire', 'reactor power' (as this will need a good chunk of code) and 'sized hardpoints' (has less support than CoF but is much easier to implement). Add more effects to the weapons other than lasers? Or what else? Or your point is 'it's ok now' (also a viable opinion)?

Maybe we should also think about environmental parameters. Every map has certain conditions. Dust (Tourmaline) or Fog (Vidrian) could give penalties. So there's that. Then also the timeline will come up with some pretty nasty armor - unfortunately not yet in time. And then there are other ideas like the reactor power idea to refil capacitors of lasers. Or the innard idea, where wasting a high damage alpha into one spot do not help you at all to kill the enemy effective.

Edited by Kuritaclan, 13 February 2016 - 08:04 PM.

[Mystere]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 13 February 2016 - 03:45 PM, said:

i just want the laser vomit to end, is that so much to ask? :-)

Not at all. But, I myself want this to be Mechwarrior Online and not AlphaWarrior Online, which is a super set of LaserVomit Online.

<And I also sense the start of a deliberate effort to sabotage this thread. How sad.>

Edited by Mystere, 13 February 2016 - 08:47 PM.

[Ramseti]

Kuritaclan, on 13 February 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

With hitboxes as large as cars it is wayne if you see 4 laser are spot on or 5cm off or 20cm off each other. With pixel as they are you can not even tell the difference between 10cm. Every little mouse movement or movement yourself or by enemy translat into deviation in many Decimeter. And thats nothing else as the novels describe. Beside that most authors exaggerate for drama. And no directed lasers will not hit 4m appart from each other as acs won't in a stand off. You are bitching about something that is built in the game allready. And it is plausible to converge as we have it.

But that's not what you said at first. You said that MWO is just like the novels, and it's not. And you still haven't given any proof for why the accuracy is so great in MWO - once again, there is literally nothing to back it. Can't do it in reality. Can't do it in the novels. Can't do it in TT. Can't do it in sourcebooks.

And the deviation will make a difference. If you try to alpha a CT every freakin' time, sometimes you might hit a torso, or an arm. It gives incentive to not alpha, as there are currently no reasons not to. My sparky, being a "meta mech" full of laser vomit can pinpoint wherever I want - that's simply not what a walking tank can do.

[Ramseti]

pbiggz, on 13 February 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

Overall, this thread seems to be about nerfing people who aim better than you now. That is silly. Git gud.

It's exactly the opposite. I want this game to be more sim-like, not PointAndClickWarrior Online. Go ahead and tell me that a "realistic" sim is easier than point and click. I bet you think games like Chivalry require more skill than real life as well. Git knowledge, son.