1094 replies to this topic

[process]

The problem with a movement crosshair modifier is that it will also nerf brawlers and buff turrets.

It might help to show these to scale over a screenshot, just to get a sense of the orders of magnitude you're thinking about.

[TexAce]

L A V A, on 08 February 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

Hey, we've lived with the problem for years... it's only recently got totally out of hand.

Why ask for a solution which we might not see for a year + (with all the bugs that will come with it) when we can get something relatively fast and is fairly easy to implement.

The reudce-CoF code is already in the game, there are (or were) mechs, which have/had it as Quirks for their MGs. Can't recall which mech it was.
So basically, all they need for it, is already in the game.

process, on 08 February 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

The problem with a movement crosshair modifier is that it will also nerf brawlers and buff turrets.

It might help to show these to scale over a screenshot, just to get a sense of the orders of magnitude you're thinking about.

Good Idea, I'll try to make one.

[TexAce]

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

You. Cannot. Remove. A. Player's. Ability. To. Aim. And. Hit. Their. Target. In. An. FPS.

The MAAAS uses several interlocking mechanics to allow players to mitigate or eliminate cone-of-fire inaccuracy and allow them to take aimed shots. I have seen zero MWO cone-of-fire proposals that include the same - they simply expect the player to eat the newly introduced, HSR-killing randomized inaccuracy with a smile on their face and go "THIS IS SO MUCH BETTER!" because they're salty and bitter over lasers actually being good for the first time in MWO history.

Well, guess what. Not so much.

You haven't really read my proposal, otherwise you would know what you are saying does not apply to it.

[pbiggz]

There are ALOT of things this system would effect. Here's one example, if your reticle is at 50% bloom and your firing at something 800 meters away, how far will your weapons wander? Even small increases in the firing angle can result in over ten meters of wandering, and tbh, a solid cone of fire system in this game, where mechs have built in targetting systems (that can of course be complimented with targetting computers), the max reticle bloom should do little more than spread damage across the right/center/left torsos, and thats at the absolute max under the worst circumstances. You have to ride that delicate line between pinpoint pixel perfect accuracy, which we all agree is not good, and actually impairing a players capacity to aim. As 1453R said, you can't remove a players ability to aim and hit their target, thats pretty much game design heresy, so a convergence system needs to be applied very lightly, and little more.

You absolutely have the UI part down at least, but when it comes to actual bloom, that calculation should likely take into account the distance to the target before it applies any kind of penalty. It takes an actual bit of math.

And before you say "I think firing convergence should be very agressive and you should only be able to link fire weapons", think of what that would do. You would never see small weapons again. Machine guns? They're a joke already, but if you can't fire more than one at a time, why waste the tonnage. Small/medium lasers? Even large lasers to an extent? Any weapon that relies on boating becomes a literal waste of space. The only weapons you would ever see are Ultra AC 10/20s, AC 20s, PPCs, ER PPCs, Gauss, and maybe LRMs since this doesn't really effect them, though one of the reasons they suck is they spread damage uncontrollably. See? Its a slippery slope and all it does is murder small weapons. Thats what proponents of a TT inspired targetting system can't seem to get through their heads.

Edited by pbiggz, 08 February 2016 - 08:35 AM.

[TexAce]

pbiggz, on 08 February 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

There are ALOT of things this system would effect. Here's one example, if your reticle is at 50% bloom and your firing at something 800 meters away, how far will your weapons wander? Even small increases in the firing angle can result in over ten meters of wandering, and tbh, a solid cone of fire system in this game, where mechs have built in targetting systems (that can of course be complimented with targetting computers), the max reticle bloom should do little more than spread damage across the right/center/left torsos, and thats at the absolute max under the worst circumstances. You have to ride that delicate line between pinpoint pixel perfect accuracy, which we all agree is not good, and actually impairing a players capacity to aim. As 1453R said, you can't remove a players ability to aim and hit their target, thats pretty much game design heresy, so a convergence system needs to be applied very lightly, and little more.

You absolutely have the UI part down at least, but when it comes to actual bloom, that calculation should likely take into account the distance to the target before it applies any kind of penalty. It takes an actual bit of math.

And before you say "I think firing convergence should be very agressive and you should only be able to link fire weapons", think of what that would do. You would never see small weapons again. Machine guns? They're a joke already, but if you can't fire more than one at a time, why waste the tonnage. Small/medium lasers? Even large lasers to an extent? Any weapon that relies on boating becomes a literal waste of space. The only weapons you would ever see are Ultra AC 10/20s, AC 20s, PPCs, ER PPCs, Gauss, and maybe LRMs since this doesn't really effect them, though one of the reasons they suck is they spread damage uncontrollably. See? Its a slippery slope and all it does is murder small weapons. Thats what proponents of a TT inspired targetting system can't seem to get through their heads.

I am totally with you here, with my proposal you could theoretically still do it, but you would need to pack some equipment for it.

If you aim at someone 800m away and you have the crosshair clearly on him, the CoF should just be so strong, that you still hit him with 90% of your weapons, just not all at the same location. At least when standing. If you are moving however, some of the shots may miss the target.

Its a delicate play with numbers for sure, but I'm also sure it could work.

At least I know I would like this over the current situation where you can pinpoint someone with ALL your weapons, while moving, without any penalty from 800m away.

Edited by TexAce, 08 February 2016 - 08:44 AM.

[L A V A]

TexAce, on 08 February 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

The reudce-CoF code is already in the game, there are (or were) mechs, which have/had it as Quirks for their MGs. Can't recall which mech it was.

So basically, all they need for it, is already in the game.

Translating the MG COF to all the weapons in MWO would be a nightmare and it's implementation would be so bug ridden as to be unplayable.

Personally, I believe that delayed convergence is the most realistic simulation, but if we can't have that, at least using the target lock and target information we get some form of delayed convergence without having to break the game while trying to introduce a system which could be a year before implementation.

Alpha Strike Warrior Online is ridiculous. We need a solution to the problem sooner not later.

[Spheroid]

@Adam: You don't get my point. Massed medium lasers would share one mount as in real life examples like anti-aircraft guns or solid gun noses in WWII aircraft. The convergence would be 270 meters hardwired into the mount. At ranges less than that the size of the hunch is still dense enough to hit one body segment and at rangers greater than optimal nobody cares because the damage drops off rapidly.

If you have one error per gimbal the Hunchback is OP and if you have multiple errors its looks ridiculous and unrealistic. There is hardpoint equality right now under the current system.

Edited by Spheroid, 08 February 2016 - 08:42 AM.

[1453 R]

TexAce, on 08 February 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

You haven't really read my proposal, otherwise you would know what you are saying does not apply to it.

Sure I have. You want only Clan players to be able to aim, and to be able to do so by strapping a million tons of targeting equipment to their 'Mech, using every module slot they have for CoF reduction, and then to only be able to aim when standing still and on a zero'd out heat bar. Then you can get pinpoint accuracy back, hurray!

...does that sound even remotely realistic to you, man? How often do you want to stand still for several seconds waiting for your heat to bottom out before taking a shot? If you have to stand still for several seconds and wait for your heat to bottom out before firing a shot that might actually stand a ghost of a chance of hitting its target, then what, pray tell, is going to stop massed-SRM cruisers from Ruling The Whole World? The only reason SRMs aren't in the Official Meta now is because of range issues; you eliminate the ability of ranged weapons to actually hit things at range, outside of one-off chainfire shots, and I guarantee you that SRM enemas become the new indisputable champion of MWO.

And four months later, everyone will hate it and pine for the days when direct-fire single-shot guns were good and they didn't have to abandon anything with less than four missile hardpoints as unusable and worthless.

[TexAce]

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

Sure I have. You want only Clan players to be able to aim, and to be able to do so by strapping a million tons of targeting equipment to their 'Mech, using every module slot they have for CoF reduction, and then to only be able to aim when standing still and on a zero'd out heat bar. Then you can get pinpoint accuracy back, hurray!

...does that sound even remotely realistic to you, man? How often do you want to stand still for several seconds waiting for your heat to bottom out before taking a shot? If you have to stand still for several seconds and wait for your heat to bottom out before firing a shot that might actually stand a ghost of a chance of hitting its target, then what, pray tell, is going to stop massed-SRM cruisers from Ruling The Whole World? The only reason SRMs aren't in the Official Meta now is because of range issues; you eliminate the ability of ranged weapons to actually hit things at range, outside of one-off chainfire shots, and I guarantee you that SRM enemas become the new indisputable champion of MWO.

And four months later, everyone will hate it and pine for the days when direct-fire single-shot guns were good and they didn't have to abandon anything with less than four missile hardpoints as unusable and worthless.

No one is saying you have to have no heat at all to pinpoint. I'm clearly saying, if you ride the heat bar or alpha strike, only then the CoF (which is determined by your equipment by then) can be affected in a negative way.
If you stop and fire your weapons (fully equipped and skilled) while having 50, or even 70% heat, you could still pinpoint, unless you are alphaing all your weapons. Its all adjustable.

[adamts01]

Spheroid, on 08 February 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

@Adam: You don't get my point. Massed medium lasers would share one mount as in real life examples like anti-aircraft guns or solid gun noses in WWII aircraft. The convergence would be 270 meters hardwired into the mount. At ranges less than that the size of the hunch is still dense enough to hit one body segment and at rangers greater than optimal nobody cares because the damage drops off rapidly. If you want to talk real life, each weapon could have a suspension system built in to the mounts, which I'm sure WW2 planes had as well.

If you have one error per gimbal the Hunchback is OP and if you have multiple errors its looks ridiculous and unrealistic. There is hardpoint equality right now under the current system.

I see your point. If implemented, it should be per mount. It wouldn't be so noticeable as to look ridiculous, OP is talking about 1 or 2 degrees. And at ranges under 200m, where you say the hunchback would shine, the COF is so small it wouldn't really be much different than what we have.

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

What's wrong with that? Why do we have to turn MWO into a sad bad MAAAS where nobody hits anything they aim at ever again?

OP's idea could be tweeked, but it allows players to still have pinpoint accuracy. So if you can't hit anything, it's completely on you.

process, on 08 February 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

The problem with a movement crosshair modifier is that it will also nerf brawlers and buff turrets.

OP did an excellent job of illustrating his proposal. At brawling range, his COF wouldn't affect you.

pbiggz, on 08 February 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

There are ALOT of things this system would effect. Here's one example, if your reticle is at 50% bloom and your firing at something 800 meters away, how far will your weapons wander?

Not at all if you build a proper sniper or slow down/cool down to take your shot. If you play smart, there's zero guesswork.

Edited by adamts01, 08 February 2016 - 08:54 AM.

[Percimes]

Not sure how Alpha Strike works in your system. Except for laser because of their burn time, the rest all goes away when you pull the trigger, so is the crosshair modified after you fire everything? I can see how it could make the CoF bigger, but the effect on the crosshair eludes me.

[adamts01]

Percimes, on 08 February 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

Not sure how Alpha Strike works in your system. Except for laser because of their burn time, the rest all goes away when you pull the trigger, so is the crosshair modified after you fire everything? I can see how it could make the CoF bigger, but the effect on the crosshair eludes me.

The crosshair doesn't ever have to change. His illustration is an example of what would happen.

[TimePeriod]

We can't have this because the tryhard are going to cry @russ for loosing control of their precious alpha's. And all the tryhards only account for 10% of the total players, the other 80% don't care much.

I say we try it for a duration, lets see what happens rather then just throw away something which might make this game a lot more enjoyable. I for one would relish longer combat rather then the "Stomp or get stomped" garbage we have today.

(We can't have nice things)

[1453 R]

And therein lies the problem.

If your cone of fire is tight enough to allow people to reliably hit their targets at long ranges with multiple simultaneously-fired weapons...then have you really changed anything? "The damage is spreading across multiple components though!", you say. My answer is bollocks. The majority of hard combat, the combat that kills 'Mechs, happens in the 300-500 range bracket or closer in; truly long-range 600+m sniper fire is generally for keeping heads down and weakening targets prior to a close-range rush. Discounting Commodity Warfare for the moment because nobody cares about CW folks complaining over their one map.

If your CoF doesn't really have any discernible effect on attacks made inside ~400 meters, then you've solved nothing and simply broken HSR and opened the floodgates of Hell for no reason. People will still complain about laser alphas, and lasers, and alphas, and in fact anything else that is capable of inflicting damage on their 'Mechs, and they will insist the cone be loosened up so that Evil Cheating Baby-Eating AlphaWarriors have to stand still and chainfire their stuff like proper red-coated English gentlemen or Pay The Penalty.

I get it. Nobody likes lasers. Nobody likes taking damage. Everyone wants to be that guy Forrest Gump-ing through six enemy 'Mechs' concentrated fire while still somehow only taking incidental damage, because that would be awesome. ...y'know, except for the six guys who're constantly missing this guy who is being a colossal moron and diving through their formation like a Los Angeles streaker, who should be all rights be a smoking ruin at their feet but whom the CoF Gods have decreed is now the next incarnation of Morgan Kell and cannot be harmed by his enemies.

Those six guys feel significantly less cool about the one guy managing to make monkeys out of all of them, I imagine.

[Khereg]

TimePeriod, on 08 February 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

I say we try it for a duration...

What's the level of effort required for PGI to implement this proposed change?

Edited by Khereg, 08 February 2016 - 09:18 AM.

[Metus regem]

Khereg, on 08 February 2016 - 09:18 AM, said:

What's the level of effort required for PGI to implement this proposed change?

Depends on how many comp meta tryhards we get on board....

[process]

If only PGI had some sort of testing server.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Metus regem, on 08 February 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Depends on how many comp meta tryhards we get on board....

I think you missed what he was talking about, I think he was referring to how much work/code would PGI have to put in/implement to even get this change in place to test.

Either way, you won't see many comp players supporting this afaik.

[Khereg]

Metus regem, on 08 February 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

Depends on how many comp meta tryhards we get on board....

I don't see how that affects the coding time?

[adamts01]

TimePeriod, on 08 February 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

We can't have this because the tryhard are going to cry @russ for loosing control of their precious alpha's. And all the tryhards only account for 10% of the total players, the other 80% don't care much.

Don't use that excuse. Comp players, you call them try hards, win no mater what, with whatever tools they're given.

1453 R, on 08 February 2016 - 09:09 AM, said:

If your cone of fire is tight enough to allow people to reliably hit their targets at long ranges with multiple simultaneously-fired weapons...then have you really changed anything? "The damage is spreading across multiple components though!", you say. My answer is bollocks. The majority of hard combat, the combat that kills 'Mechs, happens in the 300-500 range bracket or closer in; truly long-range 600+m sniper fire is generally for keeping heads down and weakening targets prior to a close-range rush.

The standard Clan loadout is 2xLPL and as many medium lasers as you can fit. That optimum kill range is 400-500m. So yes, I can still alpha that at pinpoint. But I can't alpha that while running full speed, twice in a row or bouncing off or redline. It doesn't stop huge alphas, but it drastically reduces their effectiveness.