1094 replies to this topic

[pyrocomp]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2016 - 01:06 PM, said:

Blown up to a 31st century war machine scale, and your telling me that a computer can't be as accurate as a human can?

Correction. This setting does not have an accurate computer. Or else why neurohelmets and piloting thay heavily relies upon pilots reflexes and such? So no, this setting does not have accurate computers.

Realizm is also a strange term, but internal logic integrity is an applicable one. And it is violated by pinpoint. Plus, small CoF (as OP described it and not that 45 degrees as many complains 'weapon will not fire where I aim' twist it) actually require a higher aiming skill than what it is no with pinpoint convergence. Really, to land all you shots on the opponnent CT you'll have to keep your crosshair in a smaller region in the middle of the mech. Is that a lower aiming skill than to aim at ANY pixel that is CT?

By the way. Using ballistics while leading you're aiming and shooting at a distance behind the targeted mech, that translates into not converging projectiles when they hit. And that 'non-convergence' is on the almost same scale that proposed one. Does it absolutely ruin the game for pinpoint lovers? Does it make ANY ballistics inherently useless and absolutely skill-less, just for noobs? Does it make dakka-builds truly aliend and way below the LRM builds? I do not believe that you can state that. You do not even notice it. Will you notice SAME scale dispersion of laser hits? Really?


Edit: typos

Edited by pyrocomp, 09 February 2016 - 02:10 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 09 February 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

Not at all, as a matter of fact, good GR snipers would be deadly, and ERLL long range builds would still be viable.

If GR snipers aren't deadly now, they won't be after this change, and ERLL builds would be dead because they would require too much effort for so little gain. That's the part I don't think you understand, all things that make them deadly would be removed.

pyrocomp, on 09 February 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

Plus, small CoF (as OP described it and not that 45 degrees as many complains 'weapon will not fire where I aim' twist it) actually require a higher aiming skill than what it is no with pinpoint convergence. Really, to land all you shots on the opponnent CT you'll have to keep your crosshair in a smaller region in the middle of the mech. Is that a lower aiming skill than to aim at ANY pixel that is CT?

I lol'd, no sorry, but CoF does not make aiming more skilled. It sounded good at least.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 February 2016 - 02:13 PM.

[Khereg]

Anyone else sorry they ever posted in this thread and now have it constantly at the top of their content list?

Oh, who the hell am I asking. Nobody's reading this any more anyway. Carry on.

[wanderer]

Quote

Focus fire/bad play by the losing team. I remember that first match, it was a disaster. Nerfing accuracy isn't going to change anything. Just look at TTK from 6 Griffins with SRMs shooting a Dire Wolf. No pin point accuracy yet abysmally low TTK. I sense something else at work here.

There's a reason SRM 4/SRM6 gets on Metamechs,and it's because it's the one pair of missile systems you can boat enough missiles (or,if quirked to the max, fire them fast enough) to compensate for not aiming. You know, the same mechanic used to get LRMs from "useless" to "mediocre". When you can put (in IS terms) about 52 damage into a target for the weight of a single Gauss rifle, it tends to compensate for scatter. Even if you scatter a third of the damage, it's still 35ish per shot to one location, which puts it near Boomjager levels of armor shredding. For much less heat than dual 20's with their superspookyheat.

B33f has the textbook example of how much of a can opener that can be with his Atlas-S. Still, it not only takes focus fire but accuracy in most of those cases shown above,as those aren't decks full of brawlers.

Just people making focus fire even more potent because the only thing nastier and faster than focused fire is being able to focus the maximum amounts of guns on a single armor location. Splatterbuilds just generate so much damage that they compensate for the spread, assuming you can get into shanking range. And even then, imperfect convergence would have a significant effect on the TTK as even modest additional scatter on SRMs has a disproportionate effect on killing power.

[pyrocomp]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 February 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

I lol'd, no sorry, but CoF does not make aiming more skilled. It sounded good at least.

Prove your point. Mine is that with 5 m target anf 1m CoF you'll have to aim to a 4 m target that translates into 46% less area to aim and tighter position to keep the crosshair.
Yes, the proposed CoF at the reasonable distances does not cover the whole mech. At worst 3 torso components. At bes it's smaller than CT size. So how this makes aiming less skilled. Point-by-point with argumatntation preferably.

EDit: typos

Edited by pyrocomp, 09 February 2016 - 02:26 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pyrocomp, on 09 February 2016 - 02:26 PM, said:

Yes, the proposed CoF at the reasonable distances does not cover the whole mech. At worst 3 torso components. At bes it's smaller than CT size.

There is a difference between trying to hit a CT by utilizing small portions of hitboxes you know are CT (like tops of heads, noses, crotch area) than trying to aim center mass to ensure that your shot has the highest chance of hit a mech. At best, with CoF requires equal skill, at worst it requires you to get as much of the target within your reticle as possible which is less skillful than being able to pick out slivers of hitboxes and hit something the enemy was trying to twist away.

[pyrocomp]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 February 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

There is a difference between trying to hit a CT by utilizing small portions of hitboxes you know are CT (like tops of heads, noses, crotch area) than trying to aim center mass to ensure that your shot has the highest chance of hit a mech. At best, with CoF requires equal skill, at worst it requires you to get as much of the target within your reticle as possible which is less skillful than being able to pick out slivers of hitboxes and hit something the enemy was trying to twist away.

If I remember correctly, the shrinkage of the CT was a reaction to all too many donuted mechs, which was a result of laser boating. Look at the mechs hitboxes and tell me why the CT is second smallest component afre the cockpit?
Plus, corring a mech using it's antenna sounds like in HL killing and opponent with poisoned crossbow bolt hitting it's backpack from left to right. Same level of 'entertainment' bordering with glitch-abuse. Does not violate anything, sure, but for me personally it is uninteresting.

[Mystere]

Krivvan, on 09 February 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

You do realize that there has been a large meta shift and that SRMs enjoy equal place with Lasers right now right? And that most "LEET" players are in fact running SRM brawler builds now? The exact opposite of a pinpoint laser build?

When did this happen? It looks like I was away longer (i.e. playing not as much) as I thought I was.

Krivvan, on 09 February 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

And I'm sorry to use an elitist argument, but I can't help it now. If you laser boat and laser boating is the instant key to victory, why are you 3 tiers under so many players that don't use laser boats?

I still say you shouldn't have.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pyrocomp, on 09 February 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

If I remember correctly, the shrinkage of the CT was a reaction to all too many donuted mechs, which was a result of laser boating.

What, no it had nothing to do with laser boating, some mechs have just had really large CTs regardless of what you shoot it with.

pyrocomp, on 09 February 2016 - 02:38 PM, said:

Look at the mechs hitboxes and tell me why the CT is second smallest component afre the cockpit?
Plus, corring a mech using it's antenna sounds like in HL killing and opponent with poisoned crossbow bolt hitting it's backpack from left to right.

What are you even talking about.....

Mystere, on 09 February 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

When did this happen? It looks like I was away longer (i.e. playing not as much) as I thought I was.

After the rebalance, the meta shifted a bit closer (iLPLs are currently king imo). ERLL is still good, but not near as dominant as it had been.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 February 2016 - 02:48 PM.

[Mystere]

wanderer, on 09 February 2016 - 01:15 PM, said:

I'd tell you to post Youtube links on Reddit or the like with video proof of said "fixing".

Because at that point you'd cause a nuclear fecal-storm of gamewide proportions.

Actually, unless it was supplied to him by PGI (highly doubtful), it's going to cause the banhammer to drop really hard on his head.

[wanderer]

I really don't care. He's stated on the public forums that there's a non-PGI server running MWO right now.

That'll end up being banhammer worthy if true, but if it's just forum BS, who cares?

Source or it never happened.

[pyrocomp]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 February 2016 - 02:46 PM, said:

What are you even talking about.....

In first Half-life you could kill a soldier with a crossbow just hitting him though backpack in side projection. E.g. not actually touching the soldier. Some of what you describe sounds just like this. E.g. to core and kill and Atlas only by shooting at it's headtop or shooting on the Zeus fins to blow a side off. Legal tactics right now, no argument over this, but makes even less sense in light of those 'stompy robots'. It's internal logic integrity that does not hold.

[DoctorDetroit]

wanderer, on 09 February 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

Here's a couple on other maps. Surely, it's hard to kill giant robots in the modern day. It's a little further to walk, so it took an extra minute. Again, here's your TTK at work.

A couple matches doesn't mean anything. What is your average match time? Probably over 10 minutes. Have you ever heard of an outlier? This is really sad that you do not know this, but I will try and help you understand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outlier

[Gas Guzzler]

wanderer, on 09 February 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

There's a reason SRM 4/SRM6 gets on Metamechs,and it's because it's the one pair of missile systems you can boat enough missiles (or,if quirked to the max, fire them fast enough) to compensate for not aiming. You know, the same mechanic used to get LRMs from "useless" to "mediocre". When you can put (in IS terms) about 52 damage into a target for the weight of a single Gauss rifle, it tends to compensate for scatter. Even if you scatter a third of the damage, it's still 35ish per shot to one location, which puts it near Boomjager levels of armor shredding. For much less heat than dual 20's with their superspookyheat.

B33f has the textbook example of how much of a can opener that can be with his Atlas-S. Still, it not only takes focus fire but accuracy in most of those cases shown above,as those aren't decks full of brawlers.

Just people making focus fire even more potent because the only thing nastier and faster than focused fire is being able to focus the maximum amounts of guns on a single armor location. Splatterbuilds just generate so much damage that they compensate for the spread, assuming you can get into shanking range. And even then, imperfect convergence would have a significant effect on the TTK as even modest additional scatter on SRMs has a disproportionate effect on killing power.

That's my point. Its the massed damage that causes low TTK. The majority of people can't aim perfectly anyway, so you typically have graffiti shots for the most part. Its the fact that 6 people pumping out 40-50 damage is going to demolish mechs quickly.

pyrocomp, on 09 February 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

Correction. This setting does not have an accurate computer. Or else why neurohelmets and piloting thay heavily relies upon pilots reflexes and such? So no, this setting does not have accurate computers.

Realizm is also a strange term, but internal logic integrity is an applicable one. And it is violated by pinpoint. Plus, small CoF (as OP described it and not that 45 degrees as many complains 'weapon will not fire where I aim' twist it) actually require a higher aiming skill than what it is no with pinpoint convergence. Really, to land all you shots on the opponnent CT you'll have to keep your crosshair in a smaller region in the middle of the mech. Is that a lower aiming skill than to aim at ANY pixel that is CT?

By the way. Using ballistics while leading you're aiming and shooting at a distance behind the targeted mech, that translates into not converging projectiles when they hit. And that 'non-convergence' is on the almost same scale that proposed one. Does it absolutely ruin the game for pinpoint lovers? Does it make ANY ballistics inherently useless and absolutely skill-less, just for noobs? Does it make dakka-builds truly aliend and way below the LRM builds? I do not believe that you can state that. You do not even notice it. Will you notice SAME scale dispersion of laser hits? Really?


Edit: typos

B-b-b-but projectile convergence as you describe was completely ignored when people whined of PPFLD alpha strikes. At least lasers usually turn out to be "graffiti scrawls". I'm not making that phrase up, people used to say that when I would argue against nerfing PPCs back in the day. Now, lasers are no skill EZ mode. Its amazing how the forumites change their opinions.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pyrocomp, on 09 February 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

Legal tactics right now, no argument over this, but makes even less sense in light of those 'stompy robots'.

Ummmm, no it doesn't, it is part of the mech, if you want a more comprehensive hitbox model, sure I'm down for that, even though the game could not handle that, but don't try and say it doesn't make sense that the head of an Atlas is part of the mech. Now if we are talking about silly things like the upcoming Rifleman and his big brother Jagermech which both have 'spoilers' yes, those should not count as part of the mech, that is actually silly.

[wanderer]

Quote

A couple matches doesn't mean anything. What is your average match time? Probably over 10 minutes. Have you ever heard of an outlier? This is really sad that you do not know this, but I will try and help you understand.

Mine on a good stomp with a competent group? 4-5 minutes or so, give or take on map size. And I'm in Tier 3 averageland. Average? 7-8, generally because there's someone who decides teamwork < hiding to protect muh K/D. Helps when the enemy team NASCARS in a nice straight line to get the PUGs to focus fire, of course. Groups tend to do so because, y'know, teamwork OP.

10 minute+ matches are when people do things like run away or hide in a map corner "sniping" at ERLL-tickle ranges in their Raven. If your opponent's 12 are actively trying to engage you, then things die fast. One way or another.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

wanderer, on 09 February 2016 - 03:24 PM, said:

If your opponent's 12 are actively trying to engage you, then things die fast. One way or another.

You may want to go back watch some of the MLMW matches then, a lot of them may have been opponents vying for position with minimal trading, but matches are not always short, even in comp land.

[wanderer]

And most of those extended matches aren't so much people exchanging fire as avoiding getting into exchanges entirely, because they're calculating trades as being so unfair as to simply attempt repositioning. Lots.

Actual exchanges of fire time remains the same. Brutal and short.

[pyrocomp]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

B-b-b-but projectile convergence as you describe was completely ignored when people whined of PPFLD alpha strikes. At least lasers usually turn out to be "graffiti scrawls". I'm not making that phrase up, people used to say that when I would argue against nerfing PPCs back in the day. Now, lasers are no skill EZ mode. Its amazing how the forumites change their opinions.

Hadn't been here that time, more's the pity. But again, if that - that the ballistics do not converge and it does not break the game, the ballistics and such - gone unnoticed, so what's the problem for the small CoF other that 'we want to kill mech via hitting that fin'?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 09 February 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

Ummmm, no it doesn't, it is part of the mech, if you want a more comprehensive hitbox model, sure I'm down for that, even though the game could not handle that, but don't try and say it doesn't make sense that the head of an Atlas is part of the mech. Now if we are talking about silly things like the upcoming Rifleman and his big brother Jagermech which both have 'spoilers' yes, those should not count as part of the mech, that is actually silly.

First. While the rules and mech models are this it's a legal tactics. Sure. As any other usage in this set of rules. As in any game or situation we are using the rulse (and abusing them). And those 'spoilers' and 'anntennas' and 'fins' should not count but should be shootable through, they should not count as shields.
Second. Shooting of the Atlas 'hill-top' that counts as Mech component... well, there is long way to the 'true the the letter of the law' vs 'true to the spirit of the law'. I'm not sure I want to get down that alley right now. But...
Third. If that is silly that JM6's spoiler counts as a part of a Mech, then why are you against CoF that will make it less fruitful to shoot there? Or it is more to the point of shooting that pixel of a hand that you see aroung the conner? Isn't it the same grazing shot?


But anywayl, sad thing I remember, that when MW was first announced (as a single player so on) I've read through a discussion on our local forum on how 'they' are going to implement the reaction of different types of armor to a different modes of LBX shot under different conditions. To the point of cracks in armor pannels (and thus the laser chances), loosennings and ricochet chances. Well, overoptimistic it was. People prefer to hope or, more precisely, predict changes using their own ideas and thoughts (often very selfcontradictory) rather than logic.
But to the point. In this case... we have destructible trees and lamp posts. Can we have destructible antennae, fins and other 'decorations' (hope they will later count as modules/tools/radar housings) and ams specificaly. Anyway, more than 7 components. Much more. Some critical, some less critical. (that window in the armor sliced from the Atlas' 'hill-top' should count like another cockpit?)

Edit: typos

Edited by pyrocomp, 09 February 2016 - 03:32 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

pyrocomp, on 09 February 2016 - 03:30 PM, said:

Third. If that is silly that JM6's spoiler counts as a part of a Mech, then why are you against CoF that will make it less fruitful to shoot there? Or it is more to the point of shooting that pixel of a hand that you see aroung the conner? Isn't it the same grazing shot?

Because it also dumbs down the aiming at the same time? If you can fire with a reasonable spread (ie as minimal as possible) that forces you to aim center mass all the time, is that really better for the game, making all mechs behave like shotguns of some sort (provided you alpha)? Honestly I don't think so, and it definitely makes XLs even more viable when you aren't able to single out their sides, which is a problem given they are already really viable.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 February 2016 - 03:35 PM.