1094 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dino Might, on 10 February 2016 - 03:22 AM, said:

To finally end the "no skills for aiming anymore" parade:


^ requires better aim to guarantee hits on the locations you are trying to shoot. The skill ceiling is higher.

There is one problem with this diagram, and it comes down to how often is the CoF going to fit within the CT hitbox, if it did, sure then there isn't a big problem, but I get the feeling that is not going to be case a majority of the time.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 February 2016 - 08:04 AM.

[Livewyr]

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

Yeah, this BS idea is clear as hell. Punish people who are moving, encourage stale long range gameplay with low heat weapons.

Because the current stale long range hill humping/jump sniping is so amazing, right? Boreal is just soooo much fun fighting a bunch of Hillhumping LL stalkers/Guass Jagers.....

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

Basically, reward people who can't be arsed to learn to aim by dragging down people who can to their level. Full on SJW/tumblrFeminist reasoning with no thought on the impact this would have on gameplay.

Exactly what does one do to "learn" to click accurately? (Which is the entire point...with a laser vomit build.. there is only point & click.)

Please, do enlighten me. How does one learn to aim with a laser vomit build? What neat experience does one need to gain in order to aim better with a laser vomit? I am MOST curious. This is definitely a serious question.

Shredhead, on 10 February 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

What has CoF to do with skill? How would it add any need for more skill, when it evens out the odds between skilled and unskilled shooters? What does meta have to do with the whole thing?
Why are you guys all strawmanning so hard? Why can't you just admit you're bad and want to pull everyone else down to your level? You're so dishonest it's disgusting!
<snip>
My gimp skills are simply amazing. Deal with it!
***30%, not 10.

We're not proposing dropping the skill cap. We're proposing raising the skill cap. Instead of Point & Click with lasers whenever the heck you feel like it; you have to first think about speed, heat, etc... *that* is skill.

(And while you're on your high horse, remember that many, if not most of us who are proponents of a player controlled CoF are damned good shots. When I did play this candy crush anology of a game, I usually ended up with the most kills or assists with only a medium amount of damage because I hit the CT, every bloody time. I bet if I played Candy Crush, I'd be a monster at it.)

We're also tired of the game being entirely "who shoots first" regardless of the situation. It is the epitome of twitch. You don't even have to think. You just click accurately. (And no, that isn't a strawman, unless you can explain to me what exactly I have to think about with a laser vomit build in order to hit someone within range...)

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 February 2016 - 07:42 AM, said:

Why do we think it would cripple jump sniping? Cripple? no, make it a little less effective? Sure.

I think it would cripple jumpsniping because of the CoF generated by a jump. (Keep in mind, I think of Jump sniping at 800m+ shots while falling after a jump.)

Jumpshooting would be less effected as I stated earlier.

Edited by Livewyr, 10 February 2016 - 08:18 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 08:04 AM, said:

There is one problem with this diagram, and it comes down to how often is the CoF going to fit within the CT hitbox, if it did, sure then there isn't a big problem, but I get the feeling that is not going to be case a majority of the time.

But it is something that is 100% under the pilot's control.

[Dino Might]

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

But it is something that is 100% under the pilot's control.

Hit the nail on the head. This point will still be ignored, but is the crux of why this raises the skill cap from an overall game balance perspective, as tortuous demands to know.

That diagram was meant to address one point of one argument against. Saying that diagram isn't the way things will work is like saying, "mechs aren't squares, therefore this diagram is irrelevant."

It's an analogy used to illustrate a single point.

Mystere, you're right. I probably should have given up long ago. I might as well go try and argue with the people who think the earth is 6000 years (assuming our normal calendar years definition) old. It's a fruitless endeavor. But I keep trying to explain more for the readers of this thread who haven't made up their minds and who are considering whether or not the idea is worth the experiment. I just hope that those people on the fence see the ridiculousness and lack of logic inherent in the claims of some detractors, so that those on the fence give actual thought to these proposals.

Edited by Dino Might, 10 February 2016 - 08:34 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

But it is something that is 100% under the pilot's control.

Yeah, if you are firing one weapon while not moving and have no heat.....

[Ratpoison]

Dino Might, on 10 February 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

Please, quote where I said any of what you stated above. The "one-size fits all CoF" idea was just introduced by you, for no reason, other than to argue with...yourself?

I drew a simple picture in MS Paint to illustrate why CoF does not make the shooting aspect of this game require less skill. I couldn't use a more complicated picture to illustrate a simple point because you weren't understanding my discussion earlier. So I dumbed it down to a simple case that shows the general behavior or how a CoF impacts play.

Here's a thought - if that CoF circle gets larger, what happens to the hitbox required to guarantee a hit in the CT? Hint: It gets smaller (requiring even more aiming skill).

No matter how large or small your CoF is, it will always result in a hitbox for guaranteed hit to be smaller than it is now. That requires more skill. If you are running and at high heat, you need to make up for that with better aim. You can still do it, but now you have to balance multiple factors instead of just pointing and clicking.

Here I am, muddy again. Sigh*

Wow, I'm really glad all 5 of the CoF proponents came out to defend this nonsense. Alright, since you're all such a fan of that nice diagram and the OP, can you make another diagram for the first of these two pictures from the OP, since you only did one for the second?



Go on, show me the area in the first picture where my aiming skill will ensure that I hit the CT.

Edited by tortuousGoddess, 10 February 2016 - 08:31 AM.

[Livewyr]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

Go on, show me the area in the first picture where my aiming skill will ensure that I hit the CT.

Too easy. (Long range shot)
Slow the **** down and then aim. (BAM smaller circle.)

[Dino Might]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

Wow, I'm really glad all 5 of the CoF proponents came out to defend this nonsense. Alright, since you're all such a fan of that nice diagram and the OP, can you make another diagram for the first of these two pictures from the OP, since you only did one for the second?



Go on, show me the area in the first picture where my aiming skill will ensure that I hit the CT.

It won't - that's the point. Your aiming skill combined with your piloting and heat management skills now matter, not just your aiming skill. You want a higher skill cap, there you go. You have to consider all factors of using your mech instead of just one. That's the point. Why should you be guaranteed to hit the CT every time just because you click a button? My preference is that you aren't guaranteed a CT hit when at max speed, max heat, jumping, alpha'ing all your weapons.

Are there only 5 of us that would like to see things like long range shooting be a bit more difficult than just point and click? I agree that you and I want different games. You want to limit the number of factors that affect performance, which makes the game easier. I don't.

As an aside, if you really want a discussion, my recommendation is to start with questions instead of condemnations when someone proposes an idea. If you condemn the idea immediately without understanding it, the response is going to be condemnation of your condemnation. Maybe if you phrased your post as, "My concern is that I won't be able to guarantee hits in the locations I want to hit. In this case, would there be a way for me to ensure a CT hit?" we would end up in a more productive dialogue.

Edited by Dino Might, 10 February 2016 - 08:43 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Livewyr, on 10 February 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

I think it would cripple jumpsniping because of the CoF generated by a jump. (Keep in mind, I think of Jump sniping at 800m+ shots while falling after a jump.)

Jumpshooting would be less effected as I stated earlier.

I think that would be something for the "R" button. If someone has "R" toggled on your target, then while jumpsniping, your reticule would bloom 75% less, allowing for at least some degree of accuracy. Obviously, the entire point of a "CoF' is to ensure you dont achieve a 100% hit rate.

I think the reticule jitter needs to go away anyway, it barely makes sense....

I think a CoF system should be integrated into the R button and TCs. Improved TCs reducing CoF bloom by 2x its class rating. IE: TC 7 gives a 14% reduction in Bloom, and so on down the line.

Then, there could be maybe a "skill" tree upgrade that reduces CoF by 2.5% from the get go.

Maybe some mechs, like a Warhawk, could have an innate CoF bloom reduction of 2.5%.

Then, to really give validity to the "R" button, when you are essentially "hipfiring" an enemy, you get a 25% increase to CoF bloom, making it actually alot more difficult to hit targets at mid-long range, but if someone hits R, then you get an instant 15% bonus to CoF bloom. When someone is Tagged or NARC'd, you get a 5% for TAG and a 10% for NARC.

Ultimately, I personally wouldnt make CoF much worse then a hipfired SMG in Planetside 2, but it would be enough to deviate long range shots, and also large alphas.

Basically, if you wanted to "Alpha", that would be best used up close, basically as a spray and pray system, kinda like using a shotgun in a FPS, but for more precision at longer distances, you "ADS", or press R and chain fire your weapons, to keep the bloom down, basically in FPS terms "Burst fire" your weaponry.

In addition, I would add heat penalties to CoF, like 25% heat you see a 2.5% hit to CoF, at 50%, a 5%, 75% heat is a 10% penalty and 90% is a 15% penalty, basically giving some validity to heat management. Take a breather, play slower, use tactics, teamwork and coordination. Fire discipline, heat management, group tactics.....

[Ratpoison]

Livewyr, on 10 February 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

Too easy. (Long range shot)
Slow the **** down and then aim. (BAM smaller circle.)

So when a mech is slightly out of short range, I'm supposed to be required to take the time to make a full stop in order to return fire from ridge campers, which is plenty enough for them to duck back down? Who's going to want to push? What is a light mech going to be worth at all then?

Boy, THAT meta sounds like fun.

Movement penalization is not acceptable, neither is randomizing the end results with CoF.

Edited by tortuousGoddess, 10 February 2016 - 08:41 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dino Might, on 10 February 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

It won't - that's the point. Your aiming skill combined with your piloting and heat management skills now matter, not just your aiming skill. You want a higher skill cap, there you go. You have to consider all factors of using your mech instead of just one. That's the point. Why should you be guaranteed to hit the CT every time just because you click a button?

Hotthedd, on 10 February 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

But it is something that is 100% under the pilot's control.

So here is the thing I don't think people get, there is a limited amount a pilot can think about at any given time, the reason why most people use weapons that are easy to use is because battlefield awareness and basic piloting skills require some of that brain power, and having to think too hard about aiming is often at the cost of the others. That is how it is currently mind you.

So with this, you are forcing aiming to both consider heat and movement that people will shift towards tactics and piloting methods that are easier to offset this. Thus where this idea that the game will become tactically binary, you either push with brawl stuff, or you find some position and camp there with Gauss, because you are unable to aim well enough while moving because it will be harder to maintain because of the penalty imposed as well as being forced to chainfire in order to minimize the penalty. Sure you kill NASCAR which so many hate, but you better get prepared for Gauss poking, because that will be the thing if you aren't just a pure brawler.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 February 2016 - 08:41 AM.

[TexAce]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 08:30 AM, said:

Wow, I'm really glad all 5 of the CoF proponents came out to defend this nonsense. Alright, since you're all such a fan of that nice diagram and the OP, can you make another diagram for the first of these two pictures from the OP, since you only did one for the second?



Go on, show me the area in the first picture where my aiming skill will ensure that I hit the CT.

With a gaussian distribution even in the first picture 50-70% of shots would go CT. But you dont get that right?
And this is while walking, with no equipment whatsoever to aid pinpointing and with heat.

Edited by TexAce, 10 February 2016 - 08:43 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

So when a mech is slightly out of short range, I'm supposed to be required to take the time to make a full stop in order to return fire from ridge campers, which is plenty enough for them to duck back down? Who's going to want to push? What is a light mech going to be worth at all then?

Boy, THAT meta sounds like fun.

Movement penalization is not acceptable, neither is randomizing the end results with CoF.

Long range shots are not supposed to be that easy anyway. That ridge humper, if all he did was poke up and snap shot, not allowing his TC time to zero in, his own accuracy would be ****, giving you time to close the distance with him. Also, remember, your on a team with 11 other mechs. If you need to cross a crevasse and there are ridge humpers, use your buddies to suppress the enemy firing line. What do you actually think LRMs are for? Yeah, suppression, no one likes to hear "WARNING INCOMING MISSILES"!!! That is enough to get guys to fire like ****, dive for cover, break a shot. Or, you get your own ridge humpers to snipe it out with them while you close.

Lights would be invaluable still, they just wouldnt be the super fast gun karts of doom. Lights would actually survive alot better in a CoF world.

[Livewyr]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

So when a mech is slightly out of short range,

Speaking of strawman... (The hyperbole is real with you.)

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

I'm supposed to be required to take the time to make a full stop in order to return fire from ridge campers, which is plenty enough for them to duck back down?

1: Slow down to reduce circle. (Full stop is best, but whether you want to full stop is a judgement call requiring your brain. OHNO: Thinking and decision making!!!!!)
2: Fire some missiles at them. (OHNO Missiles have a use for displacement!)
3: They're sitting still to achieve that perfect accuracy. (Leaving themselves incredibly open to an enemy they don't necessarily see.) OHNO Risk reward! (That damned "thinking" again.)
4: It beats the hell out of the hillhumping stalker... who the **** wants to advance on boreal against a bunch of hillhumping stalkers? (*hint* You're already dealing with something worse than this horrible case you've brought up.)

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

Who's going to want to push? What is a light mech going to be worth at all then?

Maneuvering and firing, same as always.
(Now with the added bonus of making the enemy sit still in order to have the best aim to shoot at them with- leaving *them* vulnerable to accurate fire.)

Risk-Reward.

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

Boy, THAT meta sounds like fun.

Yeah.. current Meta is so awesome that Community Warfare servers just can't handle the player loads.

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

Movement penalization is not acceptable, neither is randomizing the end results with CoF.

Because tortuousGoddess says so.

(Keep going, I love picking your arguments apart.)

[Ratpoison]

Dino Might, on 10 February 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

It won't - that's the point. Your aiming skill combined with your piloting and heat management skills now matter, not just your aiming skill. You want a higher skill cap, there you go. You have to consider all factors of using your mech instead of just one. That's the point. Why should you be guaranteed to hit the CT every time just because you click a button?

Are there only 5 of us that would like to see long range shooting be a bit more difficult than just point and click? I agree that you and I want different games. You want to limit the number of factors that affect performance, which makes the game easier. I don't.

As an aside, if you really want a discussion, my recommendation is to start with questions instead of condemnations when someone proposes an idea. You condemn the idea immediately without understanding it, the response is going to be condemnation or your condemnation. Maybe if you phrased your post as, "My concern is that I won't be able to guarantee hits in the locations I want to hit. In this case, would there be a way for me to ensure a CT hit?" we would end up in a more productive dialogue.

I do understand your idea, because it was discussed not even 12 hours earlier in here, and I condemned the same ideas for the same reasons then. You even used the same falacious "you have to consider more factors" argument, and like I said the last three or five times, you still have to consider all of those factors with convergence. It is not a bit different from taking pilot error, enemy pilot skill, and the general unexpected into consideration, exactly as we do now with perfect convergence.

The only difference is that there is not an RNG changing the end results of combat, and there shouldn't be.

[Livewyr]

tortuousGoddess, on 10 February 2016 - 08:51 AM, said:

you still have to consider all of those factors with convergence.
The only difference is that there is not an RNG changing the end results of combat, and there shouldn't be.

Please, do enlighten us what movement factors you need to take into consideration with a laser vomit build?

Rough terrain?
-Jumpjet removes terrain
-City maps: no consideration.
-Hillhumping: No consideration.


So... you have: Running over PGIs boulder fields as consideration... (and those are just bugged..)

Anything else?
I'm curious.

[Hotthedd]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

Yeah, if you are firing one weapon while not moving and have no heat.....

Hyperbole aside, CHOICES! Choices are what makes a game a "thinking man's shooter".

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

So here is the thing I don't think people get, there is a limited amount a pilot can think about at any given time, the reason why most people use weapons that are easy to use is because battlefield awareness and basic piloting skills require some of that brain power, and having to think too hard about aiming is often at the cost of the others. That is how it is currently mind you.

So you are saying this would make the game harder? That contradicts the points being asserted that it gives newer players some advantage.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 10 February 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

So with this, you are forcing aiming to both consider heat and movement that people will shift towards tactics and piloting methods that are easier to offset this. Thus where this idea that the game will become tactically binary, you either push with brawl stuff, or you find some position and camp there with Gauss, because you are unable to aim well enough while moving because it will be harder to maintain because of the penalty imposed as well as being forced to chainfire in order to minimize the penalty. Sure you kill NASCAR which so many hate, but you better get prepared for Gauss poking, because that will be the thing if you aren't just a pure brawler.

Respectfully I disagree. I think that while both of those strategies will be very viable, any mixture of builds in between the extremes will be JUST as viable, and mostly determined by the pilot's preferred play style. I would have no problem playing a scout, skirmisher, harrasser, or any other style with this. I would of course have to accept that TTK would be longer and I couldn't just alpha everybody to death, but to be honest, that has gotten stale and boring.

[Mystere]

LordKnightFandragon, on 10 February 2016 - 05:44 AM, said:

Lol, what I dont get is why every game ever uses a COF, but somehow you even think of adding it to MWO and suddenly it would destroy the game. That is what I cant get, why does everyone think the game would suddenly be destroyed and unplayable because we have some sort of deviate/RNG and CoF!?

Is everyone that stuck in their metamechs?

It's not everyone. It's just people who fit a specific profile. There is a pattern.

[SkaerKrow]

While I appreciate the high quality of the OP's presentation, we already have a system that's similar to this in World of Tanks. It's terrible in that game, and I can't imagine that it would be much better in MWO. Convergence distance at least makes a modicum of sense, while this system asserts that laser beams stop firing in a straight line because reasons. MWO already reflects that certain shots are less accurate than others, which is the fact that shooting while moving or while firing upon a moving target is less likely to hit a specific point on that target. Don't want to get cored? Spread the damage across your torso. Fight at longer range. Shift position slightly so that you're not just a target in a shooting gallery. In essence, play the game, don't ask for systems to be added to take the onus and skill off of yourself.

And stop thumping this idea as being some illuminated truth about MWO. It's an opinion, you're welcome to it, but no one is obligated to agree with how you feel that the game should play.

[Ratpoison]

Livewyr, on 10 February 2016 - 08:49 AM, said:

-snip-

Not strawmanning or using hyperbole, the picture I used was quite clearly between short and mid ranges.

And I'm sorry, but you're crazy if you think that's how it will play out outside of tier 5. Mechs moving full speed can take as much as two full seconds to stop, and they'd have to in order to effectively hit a target in cover. I dunno if you've never played the shoulder fire ridge camping game, but it takes only a split second to nudge over the ridge and come to a stop, because speed doesn't build up much in that time. 2 seconds(on top of human reaction time) is more than enough to throw damage at you with no risk of return fire(unless you roll the dice and hope for that <10% chance of hitting the mark). Competitive players certainly wont have a problem throwing out the risk free damage.

The current meta can be fixed in plenty of ways, CoF will only make it far worse. You seem to be forgetting that CoF makes cover incredibly strong, since cover reduces the area in which you can be targeted. Don't underestimate the consequences of such a mistake on balance.