85 replies to this topic

[habu86]

MechregSurn, on 10 February 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

Thank you for making my point again. Ton for Ton there will be absolutely no engagement terms that favor IS mechs.

On the contrary, engagement terms where I believe the right IS mechs will hold an advantage even after the proposed range nerfs:

1. Laser brawling with medium lasers (both standard and pulse), and large pulse lasers - the combination of structure, burn time, and heat gen quirks, as well as the higher heat capacity of IS Double Heatsinks gives IS a clear advantage here - the only real clan counter to this is heavy dakka+srm, which turns the whole thing into a DPS contest and which muddies comparisons between weapon weights, ranges, etc.

2. Long range laser sniping contests with ERLL, especially in the higher weight categories where clan mechs are knuckle draggers, while IS weapons of choice have high-mounted hard points and structure quirks. FYI, IS ERLL range + 10% generic energy range quirk comes out to 740 optimal range before modules. With modules included, cERLL ekes out a whole 4 meters more optimal range. TCOMPs can squeeze a bit more, but with their current stats, the wisdom of bringing anything bigger than TCOMP I is debatable. Essentially, for the weapons, it comes down to lighter, higher alpha, hotter, and longer burn vs. heavier and bigger, cooler, lower alpha, and shorter burn (for roughly equivalent burntime DPS). The issue then moves to the platforms' durability and hardpoint location.

3. Medium-caliber balistics (i.e. AC5/UAC5) are, in my opinion, better on IS than clan at them moment due to a combination of ballistic quirks (especially cooldowns) and lack of shell spread for IS UACs. Additionally IS has a larger number of heavy and assault mechs with sufficient hardpoints to boat these ballistics (i.e. mount 3 or more), whereas the only real clan options to do this are the Ebon Jaguar, which is insanely squishy due to its shape (a very bad thing for a DPS dakka mech), and the Dire Wolf, which is very situational. And, just in case you're planning to counter with high-caliber cUACs, much as I enjoy my 2x UAC10 3xSRM4 Warhawk, I have few illusions of my ability to win a staredown with a 4xUAC5/5xAC5 Mauler unless I manage to get the drop on it and can blow out a leg before it even knows I'm there.

4. PPCs. Think of them as energy-based autocannons. Clans' ERPPC splash damage is not, IMO, generally sufficient to overcome the tech base's lack of velocity, heat gen, and cooldown quirks. Nevermind the fact that they don't have access to the regular PPC, with its lower heat. Honestly, if you're looking for a weapon to outrange your opponents after the range nerf, might I recommend IS ERPPC? 10 points of PPFLD at 810 meters unquirked (972 with 10% range quirk and range module), which is roughly on par with a Gauss rifle round at the same range.

5. LRMs. Yea, I know, bad weapons, never bring them, all that jazz. But for the sake of this argument, keep in mind that what the IS loses in extra weight, it makes up in missile spread and delivery pattern, which makes them harder to counter and spread damage.

6. Light mechs. With the exception of the Jenner IIc, Clan lights are locked into suboptimal engine, JJ, and heatsink configurations, leaving their tonnage usage in a horribly suboptimal place by comparison.

Ultimately, if the only situation a pilot knows how to exploit is one where they're shooting their opponent from a range where their opponent cannot reply, they're probably in the wrong game. There's more ways to win than hill-humping from afar, as top tier units and players have demonstrated time and time again.

Edited by habu86, 10 February 2016 - 11:46 AM.

[VoodooLou Kerensky]

[Appogee]

Clans have far superior Whining™.

PGI declared this "Give the Clans Back Their Crutches" Month in order to nerf Clan Whining™.

[Aiden Skye]

whats the point of this thread? You get stomped as IS? So what? I play clan and the vast majority of my matches are terrible losses....despite averaging over 2k damage a match.

[Bud Crue]

OP I agree with the premise that it appears clan whining about the current range advantage of the ERLL resulted in Russ' statement at the townhall that IS energy range buff would be capped at 10% across the board; and that such an "across the board" cap smacks of a lack of critical thought or analysis regarding the current state of balance, etc.

That said. Chill out. They haven't done anything yet. The sky is not falling.

From my perspective the clans most certainly do need some help, I just think that Russ' proposed fix was not well thought out, if at all. (IMHO the structure on a few notable IS mechs needs to be reduced, I'd improve the clan's heat characteristics a bit, give a few of their under performing mechs some buffs and then drop the IS ERLL range back a bit, etc.)

As to your other points (IS mechs used to be a certain way, but aren't anymore, etc.). I have to ask if this is trolling?
I mean do you really believe that the bit of extra range some IS mechs have via the ERLL is the ONLY advantage the IS has over clans? Seriously?

At your level if you can only beat clanners by sniping, I think you might be doing it wrong. I'm sorry, but I guarantee I am a worse player than you and while I drop in CW with some excellent folks (a few of us are great, but none are remotely "comp" level) and even we win far more than we lose against the clan right now.

One of our more basic tactics is this: Mixed wave of heavies and assaults. Make sure you have a few fatties up front. When the clanners light up the front, many if not most of them will over heat. Start calling targets on the shut down mechs and eliminate them one by one. I know this is simplistic, but c'mon, there is more to the IS than just sniping with ERLL.

[Koshirou]

Bud Crue, on 10 February 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

From my perspective the clans most certainly do need some help,

I don't see it. Clans took a beating when all their good units left for FRR at the start of this cycle, but now CSJ and CGB - where the important units ended up - are chewing through their IS opponents like they used to when they were in CW and CJF during the last cycle.

[Alaric Hasek]

First of all, IS defending Boreal with an organized group is just a slaughter. It's not even fun. You have 8 'mechs with massive range quirks (Battlemasters, Quickdraws, Cicadas) with 4+ ERLLs standing on a hill 800+ meters from the gates and hitting EVERY enemy 'mech that walks in. The enemy HAS to go into the trench to their left or they get focus-fired down. Clan 'mechs can't return fire due to their long laser burn time (to be fair, IS attackers can't return fire either, because you have 30+ ERLLs hitting them at the same time). If the attackers move too slow (Dire Wolves, for instance) they don't even make it to the trench. I can get off 4-6 ERLL shots with my Quickdraw on a Timber Wolf before it gets under cover, maybe 8 on a Dire Wolf. My team around me can fire at least as many. Whatever is left gets finished off by the Thunderbolts or Black Knights with masses of pulse lasers when the Clan 'mechs come out the other side of the trench. Lots of times I've played this map and not even lost my first 'mech.

All the Clans have going for them before the Feb 19 patch are good ballistics, massed SRMs, and speed. Boreal is one of the few maps where the Clans have a brawling advantage because the map is cool. On any other map it's usually a good idea for IS 'mechs to push right into the Clan 'mechs because they overheat so quickly (and the good IS 'mechs have lots of structure quirks). If you put an average player in a 4 ASRM-6/5+ SPL Timber Wolf against an average player in a Dragon the Clan 'mech is going to win. If you put the same Timber Wolf against a 7 MPL Black Knight the outcome is not so guaranteed.
If you put an average player in a 4 ERLL Hellbringer against a 4 ERLL Quickdraw then the advantage is to the IS 'mech - it can fire 15% more shots without shutting down, has less "face time" and is more mobile due to its JJs. I like to think that I know this because I am one of those average players and in a PUG CW match I'm lucky to get 4 kills with IS 'mechs but considerably more with SRM/SPL-spam Timber Wolves.

A more tabletop-like way to balance IS and Clan 'mechs would have been to give the IS some structure and ballistic quirks and the Clans range quirks, but it wouldn't be much fun - the Clans would stay at long range and use their speed to fire and relocate to another position to fire again before the IS could reposition.

Finally, anyone who claims that something is a "slap in the face" deserves a slap in the face. PGi isn't insulting you by reducing outrageous quirks (note: I play IS 'mechs too!) to something more reasonable. It's a game. It's not about you. that you've spent X amount of money and don't like the way the game has changed is not a personal affront to you. I don't like the fact that I can't stand on a hill with 4 LRM 15s with 8 other 'mechs and obliterate all opposition like I used to be able to... but PGi didn't make those changes just to annoy me or make my game play experience crappy.

At the end of they day, though, it's the organized side that wins. Focused fire and organized movement make up for what might be less-than-optimal equipment. There are plenty of IS 'mechs that are good enough (even without massive quirks) to win the day against less-organized Clan sides. That should be your advantage, not +25 (or even +50!)% range quirks, 15+% energy heat generation quirks and structure quirks that make 45-ton 'mechs absorb damage like 100 ton 'mechs.

MechregSurn, on 09 February 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

This is why certain groups which I could name left the clan side en masse and attempted to troll PGI to get the IS weapon ranges nerfed.

The ONLY map which is competitive in CW between clans and IS is Boreal Vault due to our range mechs and tactics vs the clan deathball.


Which is exactly why it SHOULD NOT be nerfed. IS teams have worked hard to develop the technical advantage into a defensible strategy. There are counter strategies, but to nerf the IS laser ranges purely to ensure clan mechs are OP in all areas is outrageous. It is an insult to every player in the game.

We do not have a game if one side is just superior in all areas!

[Bud Crue]

Koshirou, on 10 February 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

I don't see it. Clans took a beating when all their good units left for FRR at the start of this cycle, but now CSJ and CGB - where the important units ended up - are chewing through their IS opponents like they used to when they were in CW and CJF during the last cycle.

Maybe you are right. There are times when I think we are at the most balanced spot I have ever seen, but other times not so much .

As to your specific point, a key being "where the important units ended up". Most of those important units are important because they are large, have really good players, or both. They will win because of that. Not because the mechs they are playing atm are a bit hotter than they used to be (Clan) or because they have ERLL with a 100m advantage (IS). If they are going up against casual teams and pugs, they win in whatever they are driving.

Concentrating skilled players in units, etc. may be problems to some people, but it isn't a problem of mech balance.

Edited by Bud Crue, 10 February 2016 - 01:32 PM.

[Alaric Hasek]

My unit can and does field both a 12-person IS and Clan drop most every night of the week.

Bud Crue, on 10 February 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

As to your specific point, a key being "where the important units ended up". Most of those important units are important because they are large, have really good players, or both. They will win because of that. Not because the mechs they are playing atm are a bit hotter than they used to be (Clan) or because they have ERLL with a 100m advantage (IS). If they are going up against casual teams and pugs, they win in whatever they are driving.

Concentrating skilled players in units, etc. may be problems to some people, but it isn't a problem of mech balance.

[Bud Crue]

Alaric Hasek, on 10 February 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

My unit can and does field both a 12-person IS and Clan drop most every night of the week.

Okay

[Der Hesse]

Alaric Hasek, on 10 February 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

First of all, IS defending Boreal with an organized group is just a slaughter. It's not even fun. You have 8 'mechs with massive range quirks (Battlemasters, Quickdraws, Cicadas) with 4+ ERLLs standing on a hill 800+ meters from the gates and hitting EVERY enemy 'mech that walks in.

I have to order 4 of those 4+ ERLL Cicadas. ^^

And by the way...If you got an IS team with that amount of ERLL builds defending boreal it will indeed be a slaughter. But not the way you obviously think. If Clans are organized that is. If it´s hillpeeking pugs you are absolutely right. ^^

[Koshirou]

Bud Crue, on 10 February 2016 - 01:31 PM, said:

As to your specific point, a key being "where the important units ended up". Most of those important units are important because they are large, have really good players, or both.

Well, duh. Team skill is a much more important factor than tech imbalance - we all know that. But unlike what some people apparently think, this does not mean that tech imbalance is not a factor at all.

A typical MS or KCom team would beat the snot out of an inexperienced pug group even if the pugs all drove the latest meta and the MS/KCom players all drove stock Clan mechs. Does that mean that the difference between meta and stock Mechs is insubstantial? Yeah... probably not.

[Dawnstealer]

Nerfing and arguments aside, there is almost no way to stop a determined Clan Gen Rush: TBRs, etal, are so fast, are survivable enough to get to the gens, and can carry an alpha large enough that even 5 or so getting through (and they will, on practically every map), that if the Clan players choose to do that, the game's over.

Granted, that applies in a specific case: Clan Attacking (not counterattack). There is simply no stopping it. You can't nerf that.

Honestly, you shouldn't nerf that. There needs to be more game modes. And not just a "scout" mode and a "Counterattack" mode - I mean modes where you have to hold territory while taking more. Modes that actually require more strategy than which team deathballs better.

[Surn]

Dawnstealer, on 11 February 2016 - 09:48 AM, said:

There needs to be more game modes. And not just a "scout" mode and a "Counterattack" mode - I mean modes where you have to hold territory while taking more. Modes that actually require more strategy than which team deathballs better.

Which brings me back to my original point, taking away the only actual IS technical advantage is detrimental to game strategy and tactics. It furthers the team deathball only game. We want players and commanders to have options in play style to keep the game fun.

For example, yesterday I was in a pug counter attack of Boreal Vault vs MS. MS is Smoke Jag at the moment, so they just balled up and rushed straight to the IS spawn.They had no fear whatsoever of IS mechs, even on Boreal Vault because they were facing pugs. Even though I organized (some of) the pugs, they just rolled over us and camped the spawn.

This is the deathball meta that is being exacerbated by nerfing the IS.

While I do not mind losing to a better team, at least allow me the ability to try different tactics and strategies based on various loadouts and team mixes!


Conversely, here is a screenshot of a close Boreal Vault defense vs a Clan 12 man that was a fun game. The clan group tried the deathball strategy, but because we had a few range mechs and concentrated fire, then played aggressive with our following mechs ... the game was competitive and fun. There were tactics being tried on both sides and player and commanders had to adjust tactics in various waves.

Edited by MechregSurn, 11 February 2016 - 10:18 AM.

[Dawnstealer]

Totally with you.

[Surn]

Quote

Quirks

These are the broad changes you'll see in this Quirk pass:


• All remaining negative/detrimental Weapon Quirks on Clan 'Mechs have been removed. A small amount of negative Armor and Turn Quirks remain for certain variants.
• All Inner Sphere Energy Range Quirks are now set at 10% (if present).

• This 10% standardization applies specifically to 'Energy Range' Quirks. Weapon-specific Range Quirks are not effected by this change.
These are the more specific changes not covered by the two broad changes listed above:


Clan


The number of changes to Clan Quirks in this patch and the per-OmniPod Quirk system are better served in a dedicated document.
You can find a PDF of all Clan Quirk changes here, along with an Excel document here.


Inner Sphere


• All Blackjack variants now posses the following Structure Quirks (reduced from original values):

• Additional Structure CT +14 (down from +28).
• Additional Structure L/R Torso +11 (down from +22).
• Additional Structure L/R Arm +12 (down from +24).
• Additional Structure L/R Leg +11 (down from +22).

• Blackjack BJ-1: AC/2 Cooldown Quirk increased to +20% (from 10%).
• BJ-1DC: Accel/Decel Quirks both increased to +60% (from 25% and 35% respectively)
• BJ-1DC: Torso Yaw Speed Quirk increased to +45% (from 25%).
• BJ-3: PPC Velocity Quirk increased to +50% (from 40%).
• BJ-A: Now has a +20% Machine Gun Rate of Fire Quirk.
• Highlander HGN-732B: Ballistic Velocity Quirk increased to +15% (from 10%).
• HGN-732B: Now has a +10% Energy Cooldown Quirk.
• HGN-733P: Ballistic and Gauss Cooldown Quirks have been removed.
• HGN-HM: Ballistic Velocity Quirk increased to +20% (from 10%).
• Jenner JR7-O: Accel/Decel Quirks have been increased to +35% (from 10%).
• JR7-O: Turn Rate Quirk has been increased to +25% (from 10%).
• Quickdraw QKD-4G: Energy Range and Laser Duration Quirks have been removed
• QKD-4G: Missile Cooldown Quirk increased to +15% (from 10%).
• QKD-4G: Energy Cooldown Quirk increased to +20% (from 15%).
• QKD-4G: Accel/Decel Quirks increased to +30% (from 15%).
• QKD-4G: Turn Rate Quirk increased to +25% (from 10%).
• QKD-4H: Laser Duration Quirk decreased to -10% (from -20%).
• QKD-4H: Missile Cooldown Quirk decreased to +5% (from 20%).
• QKD-4H: Missile Velocity Quirk increased to +15% (from 10%).
• QKD-4H: Missile Heat Gen Quirk increased to -10% (from -5%).
• Locust LCT-1V, LCT-3V, and LCT-PB: Now have +20% Machine Gun Rate of Fire Quirks.
• Panther PNT-10K: ERPPC Quirk has been changed to a PPC Quirk, so the benefit now applies to both ERPPCs and standard PPCs.
• PNT-10K: PPC Velocity Quirk has been increased to +50% (from the original 40% ERPPC Quirk).
• Spider SDR-5K: Now has a +20% Machine Gun Rate of Fire Quirk.

So, two primary IS mechs are nerfed, all IS energy range mechs are now nerfed and all clan mechs are buffed.

BUT, we get machine gun and missile quirks that are useless vs a clan deathball.

INSERT EXPLETIVES HERE

Edited by MechregSurn, 12 February 2016 - 01:23 PM.

[iLLcapitan]

It's just insane. People work for their agenda no matter what PGI does, so few people want actual balance.
Instead of working things out, it's just so easy to come to the forums and complain.
Then post a ****** picture of a recent match you had to prove your oppinion right.

[B0oN]

iLLcapitan, on 17 February 2016 - 04:14 AM, said:

It's just insane. People work for their agenda no matter what PGI does, so few people want actual balance.
Instead of working things out, it's just so easy to come to the forums and complain.
Then post a ****** picture of a recent match you had to prove your oppinion right.

A
M
E
N

[Sauce Tomate]

That doesn't look like a 12 man MS group.

[BLOOD WOLF]

iLLcapitan, on 17 February 2016 - 04:14 AM, said:

It's just insane. People work for their agenda no matter what PGI does, so few people want actual balance.
Instead of working things out, it's just so easy to come to the forums and complain.
Then post a ****** picture of a recent match you had to prove your oppinion right.

hit the nail on the head