704 replies to this topic

[ScarecrowES]

Rampage, on 19 March 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

Really? Why?

I can see no reason for this. There currently is no loyalty to Clan or IS. Players and units switch sides on a whim. Merc units fight for clans which would never happen in BT.

Eliminate Clan vs IS. Eliminate pure tech and you eliminate a whole bunch of bitchin' and moaning about the game. Simply allow anyone who shares a border to fight with anyone else.

It is even supported by lore to eliminate the pure tech because by this point both sides had captured each other's tech and were using it as their own. Sure, the Clans only used the IS tech for garrison and second line units but they had it.

Accept this and it does not matter whether the Mad Cat MKII is Clan or IS. Just advance the game timeline to 3065 or 3067. Make CW Faction vs Faction without regard to Clan or IS. Include the MKII and the Uziel. Allow mixed tech drops. End of arguments. Lots of arguments.

I agree. Advance the timeline and drop tech divisions. Though I think just going to 3059 would be enough. After the end of the Great Refusal, you can't really divide the galaxy into two sides anymore, and you need that for CW. But 3059 still gives you Clan/IS combat without all the unnecessary tech problems.

[LastKhan]

ScarecrowES, on 19 March 2016 - 01:55 PM, said:

Ok, so once again you post a reference. You even highlight it to death. But you aren't reading what it's telling you.

"Only Clan Nova Cat fields any significant number." Nova Cat is Inner Sphere when the MkII is released.

"The only other Clans that have them won them in trials." The mech is not native to other Clans not allied with the Inner Sphere. Moreover, since neither MWO, nor YOUR OWN rules on the matter actually allow salvaged and captured mechs to be used by the capturing faction, none of the ones in possesion of the other Clans would be used in MWO. Again, you agree on this point.

"Quite a few" in the English language does not mean "a little bit." "Quite a few" means "A LOT." Large numbers. So... is English not your first language, because I could forgive you on this one if it's not. English is a really confusing language some times.

So which factions does the TRO specifically say can't have the mech? Jade Falcon, Wolf (reformed) and all the other non-IS aligned Clans, right? And which factions does it say CAN have the mech? Nova Cat and the IS Houses? SO all IS aligned factions.

Hell, even your MkII Enhanced snippet tells you explicitly INNER SPHERE CLANS. Where do you think those factions might be? Maybe in the Inner Sphere. I dunno, letters are hard.

And since you've ignored even the references you keep posting, here's another one for you to ignore... directly from the Official Catalyst Game Labs Battletech Master Unit List (that's the big list that defines which factions are allowed to use what):

http://www.masteruni...mk-ii-standard#

For some reason it won't let me post the pic where I've highlighted the relevant info, but if you click over on the Faction Availability List for the Civil War Era, you'll find the following:

Clan Diamond Shark (Source says they never actually fielded them)
Clan Ice Hellion (Source says they won them in Trials, so not allowed in MWO)
Clan Nova Cat (Fights on behalf of the Inner Sphere)
Draconis Combine (Inner Sphere House)
Federated Commonwealth (Inner Sphere mega-faction)
Federated Suns (Inner Sphere House)
Lyran Alliance (Inner Sphere House)

So, ALL official sources specify that the mech is aligned with the Inner Sphere. So what are you arguing here? Battletech has a system for defining who can use what. MWO follows that system. According to that system, the MkII is not a mech that's available to Clan factions fighting against the Inner Sphere. In order for PGI to add the MkII as a mech on the Clan side in MWO, it has to completely ignore where Battletech says the mech belongs.

Reading more into it it seems quite the Pandora's box. But you are incorrect in the statement that its an "IS" mech. Built by Clan diamond shark in factory plant; http://www.sarna.net...ng_Plant_DSF-94 and located on the planet Babylon in the clan homeworlds ( sauce, http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Babylon ) It is manufactured and built by only the clan making it a clan mech no matter how much you spin it.

Now, i agree with your sources that it was fielded by both the IS and the Clans which makes this a whole different ball game and during the time period the whole mechs used by the IS vs Clans does get shaky there. I like to wonder how PGI would go about it.

Edited by LastKhan, 19 March 2016 - 02:42 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

LastKhan, on 19 March 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

im sure Jordan Weisman would say the same.

I very much doubt this. I'm sure the guy who wrote the thing would know the rules of his own game. When you see mechs divided into Clan or IS in a TRO, it's not talking about faction availability, it's talking about tech base. That's used for construction. That tells you that building and fielding that mech has to be done in accordance with that specific set of construction rules.

There is a separate set of rules that defines which factions can use what mechs and tech. It's very detailed. If you're following strict rules when playing Battletech on the tabletop, by default you only have access to whatever tech and mechs your aligned faction has access to as native. You actually gain access to additional tech, mechs, etc through role-playing rules. A brand new Inner Sphere pilot aligned with Kurita in 3050 could only start with Kuritan mechs and weapons. But veteran pilots could eventually get access to full-bore clan mechs and tech.

Wiseman, having had a hand in inventing those rules, would know very well that what tech tree a mech belongs to has no bearing on who can actually use it.

And if you pay really close attention, MWO doesn't actually follow those rules either. It follows faction availability rules. It just so happens that in the early Clan Invasion Era, faction availability and tech line divisions were basically the same. Clans natively used Clan tech AND SLDF-era tech, but missed out on any tech that would have been rediscovered by the Inner Sphere between the point where the SLDF left and the Clans returned. And of course the IS natively only had access to IS tech, which included some of these other lostech finds that Clans no longer had. MWO simplifies this by sticking strictly to native mechs, and the SLDF mechs Clans could use are native to the Sphere, so Clans can't use them in MWO.

I think this is what is causing some people confusion. You look at MWO and say "But Clans are using Clan tech and IS/IS tech." Well yes... that's because Battletech faction availability rules put all Clan tech mechs in the Clan faction columns. NOT because the rules say Clans can only use Clan techs and so on. Once 3058 came around and some of the Clans went Inner Sphere, the faction availability lists reflected the tech base changes for all related factions.

Since MWO follows these same rules, there is no reason to think they won't continue to do so once tech lines are less neat. As Wiseman would want it.

[LastKhan]

ScarecrowES, on 19 March 2016 - 02:35 PM, said:

I very much doubt this. I'm sure the guy who wrote the thing would know the rules of his own game. When you see mechs divided into Clan or IS in a TRO, it's not talking about faction availability, it's talking about tech base. That's used for construction. That tells you that building and fielding that mech has to be done in accordance with that specific set of construction rules.

There is a separate set of rules that defines which factions can use what mechs and tech. It's very detailed. If you're following strict rules when playing Battletech on the tabletop, by default you only have access to whatever tech and mechs your aligned faction has access to as native. You actually gain access to additional tech, mechs, etc through role-playing rules. A brand new Inner Sphere pilot aligned with Kurita in 3050 could only start with Kuritan mechs and weapons. But veteran pilots could eventually get access to full-bore clan mechs and tech.

Wiseman, having had a hand in inventing those rules, would know very well that what tech tree a mech belongs to has no bearing on who can actually use it.

And if you pay really close attention, MWO doesn't actually follow those rules either. It follows faction availability rules. It just so happens that in the early Clan Invasion Era, faction availability and tech line divisions were basically the same. Clans natively used Clan tech AND SLDF-era tech, but missed out on any tech that would have been rediscovered by the Inner Sphere between the point where the SLDF left and the Clans returned. And of course the IS natively only had access to IS tech, which included some of these other lostech finds that Clans no longer had. MWO simplifies this by sticking strictly to native mechs, and the SLDF mechs Clans could use are native to the Sphere, so Clans can't use them in MWO.

I think this is what is causing some people confusion. You look at MWO and say "But Clans are using Clan tech and IS/IS tech." Well yes... that's because Battletech faction availability rules put all Clan tech mechs in the Clan faction columns. NOT because the rules say Clans can only use Clan techs and so on. Once 3058 came around and some of the Clans went Inner Sphere, the faction availability lists reflected the tech base changes for all related factions.

Since MWO follows these same rules, there is no reason to think they won't continue to do so once tech lines are less neat. As Wiseman would want it.

I think i get some what you are trying to say. but this, all of that, is more along the lines of the mech in question the MK2 and how it was used during its timeline (Damn right im saying it!) mechs were used on both sides at that time and mix teching Which in turn can cause an issue for PGI to study carefully and also still leaves me in the "Not right now" kind of stance on its implementation.

Still it being "IS" as you say was still incorrect. this was the issue ive had with you.

[ScarecrowES]

LastKhan, on 19 March 2016 - 02:34 PM, said:

Reading more into it it seems quite the Pandora's box. But you are incorrect in the statement that its an "IS" mech. Built by Clan diamond shark in factory plant; http://www.sarna.net...ng_Plant_DSF-94 and located on the planet Babylon in the clan homeworlds ( sauce, http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Babylon ) It is manufactured and built by only the clans making it a clan mech no matter how much you spin it.

Now, i agree with your sources that it was fielded by both the IS and the Clans which makes this a whole different ball game and during the time period the whole mechs used by the IS vs Clans does get shaky there. I like to wonder how PGI would go about it.

You're getting the point, but you're hanging on a few points which have a different connotation in Battletech than what you're assigning to it - really what many people here are assigning to it.

The thing about "fielding." The MkII is native to Diamond Shark because they built it. We know from lore, though, that they didn't actually field it. Diamond Shark, if you know their history, doesn't really ever fight anybody. And Ice Hellion, as lore points out, gets theirs through trials. Now in Battletech, because it's on the faction availability list, both Clans could technically field the mech as native. However, additional restrictions provided by MWO for making mech alignments easier would rule out Diamond Shark and Ice Hellion from using the mechs, as mechs won in trials or not actually fielded would rule these factions out. Lore would also tell us that Diamond Shark was more friendly with the IS and the former Clans than the remaining clans during the post-Invasion era, and even left the Clans over them being pissed about the MkII.

So the only factions where the mechs were native and fielded are aligned with the Inner Sphere (or we could also say "and not enemied of the Inner Sphere" if another qualifier is needed). In 3067, you're going to see the overwhelming majority of MkIIs in the hands of factions aligned with the Inner Sphere, regardless of origins or tech.

The same problem exists with the Nova Cat. Produced by Clan Nova Cat right as it switched sides to the Inner Sphere, it's a totem mech for Nova Cat. Thing is, many factions still on the side of the Clans captured them during Operation Bulldog. So even the Master Unit List shows these in the hands of a lot of factions on the opposite side of the War from Nova Cat. But, in MWO, we have to put the mech on whatever side Nova Cat is on, which was the IS when the mech was produced. It's going to possess the overwhelming majority of those mechs. Captured mechs don't count in MWO.

Now, these issues aren't problems in Battletech. There are rules there for how all this works.

With MWO though? We just don't know. We're not aware of how PGI intends to handle these sorts of problems.

And it goes on and on. Dozens of mechs are like this. And don't get me started on mix-tech mechs and clan retrofits. As of Operation Bulldog, you have versions of most important IS mechs that can also mount clan tech. I'm not talking IICs, which are clan redesigns of IS mechs... but full-blooded IS mechs with clan weapons and equipment shoe-horned in. You want a Warhammer or Marauder with clan weapons strapped on? You got it. And Atlas with clan streak 6's? Yours! This IS brought those to battle when they pushed back against the Clans and won the Great Refusal, officially ending the Invasion.

So many problems with oversimplifying things.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 19 March 2016 - 03:00 PM.

[LastKhan]

ScarecrowES, on 19 March 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

You're getting the point, but you're hanging on a few points which have a different connotation in Battletech than what you're assigning to it - really what many people here are assigning to it.

The thing about "fielding." The MkII is native to Diamond Shark because they built it. We know from lore, though, that they didn't actually field it. Diamond Shark, if you know their history, doesn't really ever fight anybody. And Ice Hellion, as lore points out, gets theirs through trials. Now in Battletech, because it's on the faction availability list, both Clans could technically field the mech as native. However, additional restrictions provided by MWO for making mech alignments easier would rule out Diamond Shark and Ice Hellion from using the mechs, as mechs won in trials or not actually fielded would rule these factions out. Lore would also tell us that Diamond Shark was more friendly with the IS and the former Clans than the remaining clans during the post-Invasion era, and even left the Clans over them being pissed about the MkII.

So the only factions where the mechs were native and fielded are aligned with the Inner Sphere (or we could also say "and not enemied of the Inner Sphere" if another qualifier is needed). In 3067, you're going to see the overwhelming majority of MkIIs in the hands of factions aligned with the Inner Sphere, regardless of origins or tech.

The same problem exists with the Nova Cat. Produced by Clan Nova Cat right as it switched sides to the Inner Sphere, it's a totem mech for Nova Cat. Thing is, many factions still on the side of the Clans captured them during Operation Bulldog. So even the Master Unit List shows these in the hands of a lot of factions on the opposite side of the War from Nova Cat. But, in MWO, we have to put the mech on whatever side Nova Cat is on, which was the IS when the mech was produced. It's going to possess the overwhelming majority of those mechs. Captured mechs don't count in MWO.

Now, these issues aren't problems in Battletech. There are rules there for how all this works.

With MWO though? We just don't know. We're not aware of how PGI intends to handle these sorts of problems.

And it goes on and on. Dozens of mechs are like this. And don't get me started on mix-tech mechs and clan retrofits. As of Operation Bulldog, you have versions of most important IS mechs that can also mount clan tech. I'm not talking IICs, which are clan redesigns of IS mechs... but full-blooded IS mechs with clan weapons and equipment shoe-horned in. You want a Warhammer or Marauder with clan weapons strapped on? You got it. And Atlas with clan streak 6's? Yours! This IS brought those to battle when they pushed back against the Clans and won the Great Refusal, officially ending the Invasion.

So many problems with oversimplifying things.

Yea but whats stopping PGi from over looking the nuances and look at who made the product and declaring thet it is Either IS or Clan?

CDS, i wouldnt go as far as say they were "friends" with the IS, more along the lines of business adventures, not the same as being allied with the innersphere factions unless there is a source to this.

As for the Nova Cat Their facility in Irece was under CNC control before the switch. Also, i see nowhere it states that the Mech itself was ever distributed to House Kurita so citation needed.

Edited by LastKhan, 19 March 2016 - 03:50 PM.

[MadcatX]

Small nitpick regarding the thread title: the Madcat MK.II is not an icon in the MechWarrior franchise. It's first appearance in an actual MechWarrior game (main game and mercs spin-off, not counting mechpaks, etc..) was MW4.

[ScarecrowES]

LastKhan, on 19 March 2016 - 03:49 PM, said:

Yea but whats stopping PGi from over looking the nuances and look at who made the product and declaring thet it is Either IS or Clan?

CDS, i wouldnt go as far as say they were "friends" with the IS, more along the lines of business adventures, not the same as being allied with the innersphere factions unless there is a source to this.

As for the Nova Cat Their facility in Irece was under CNC control before the switch. Also, i see nowhere it states that the Mech itself was ever distributed to House Kurita so citation needed.

You'd have to know the lore for Diamond Shark. Remember, the Clan Invasion had been over since 3060... Six years before DS started selling the mech outside their own Clan. None of the other Clans still out in Clan space wanted it, because it was obsolete. Clan tech had already moved on, and there were better mechs using newer tech being produced out in Clan space. The plan for DS was to produce a cheap mech that it could sell in large quantities to bolster their position after the Great Refusal. Diamond Shark invested heavily in the Invasion.

They were poised to join the Invasion in full near what would be the end of the main invasion, but were only ever allowed to capture a single world due to a lot of posturing and BS with other Clans that didn't like them much. Lot's of time and resources invested into preparing for a military action that yielded them a single planet. Their interactions with the Invading Clans that would stay in Clan space after the Great Refusal more or less tanked. Most Clans didn't particularly like DS because they didn't really fall along the warrior-based culture of the Clans. They're more or less merchants, which the other Clans look down on. DS was all-but-ruined in the wake of the Great Refusal. And probably worse, their biggest Clan allies all defected to the Inner Sphere.

When they couldn't sell to the other Clans, they started selling to the IS... with Nova Cat (a sub-faction of the Draconis Combine at the time) picking up most of them. But the other IS factions that used the MkII just happened to be Houses that were allied with either Nova Cat or Wolf-in-Exile, and both of those former Clans were important allies to DS when they were still allied with the Clans. Throughout the 3060s and 3070s, DS more or less moves into the IS. They slowly start building trading enclaves and begin working as official trade partners between various Clans, and between Clan and IS Factions. They become more of a merchant guild than a Clan.

As for Nova Cat and Kurita, NC makes the transition from Clan to IS in 3059 as a part of Operation Bulldog. NC had already been preparing to do so for a number of years. At the start of Bulldog, Kurita was allowed to absorb NC forces and holdings in the IS through formal Clan trials, which the Nova Cats intentionally lost. This allowed them to turn around and join the IS as full warriors with all the rights and citizenship afforded to DCMS units while keeping up appearances for the other Clans so their civilian population in Clan space wouldn't have been wiped out. They even got to hold onto a large chunk of their IS holdings as a prefecture Kurita granted them to govern for their very own.

But, for all intents and purposes, as of 3059, NC is actually part of Kurita. You never see a map of them after 3059 with their own territory and planets. They're always under the red of Kurita - Unlike Wolf-in-Exile which gets its own space on the map (Arc-Royal Defense Cordon). Thus, any mechs they make, Kurita owns - any land they settle on, Kurita owns. It's a primary reason you don't see much in the way of new mechs or tech coming out of Nova Cat after they join with Kurita. They operate somewhat independently, retaining much of their own culture and traditions, but their military fights under the direction of the DCMS, and they are fully engaged in Kuritan government and economics.

The TROs make specific mention that the Nova Cat totem mech was first used by CNC fighting against Smoke Jaguar on behalf of the Inner Sphere. Initially, during Bulldog, the guise of CNC fighting Smoke Jag as normal inter-Clan skirmishing held up. But when Nova Cat stood firmly with the IS during the Great Refusal, the Clans cast them out (abjured them) - and the Crusaders tried very hard to wipe out NC civilians fleeing to the IS after (they would have been successful had the Clans found out about NC's allegience change prior to the GR). Their earlier trickery saved a lot of civilian lives. But there should be no doubt... one of the most important points of lore surrounding the Nova Cat totem mech is that it represents a total change in the status quo in the Clans. It was a mech designed to help cast the Clans out of the Inner Sphere.

To the greater point... what's to prevent PGI from ignoring lore and doing what they want? Nothing. They can choose to do whatever they want with these mechs. They could release every single mech with clan tech on it on the Clan side forever if they choose to. It wouldn't be in-keeping with lore though. And nothing about their game systems says they have to.

However, I don't think we'll see PGI just toss the lore out. History has shown they're very careful about sticking to lore, even to the detriment of their own systems. Even discussions with PGI on whether or not the MkII will be released has shown that PGI favors adherence to lore over making a quick buck, and that's an extremely important point to remember.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 19 March 2016 - 04:31 PM.

[CK16]

You are right it is not the icon of the franchise but it is present in Mechwarrior titles and many do know its shape and the mech. I would say its fairly iconic. As much as the original Timberwolf or Warhammer or Atlas, no. But it is more so then many others. It is recognizable as a mech and from the Mechwarrior franchise. It was used by the franchise for its logo for awhile that is noteworthy.

Edited by CK16, 19 March 2016 - 04:29 PM.

[Lucian Nostra]

ScarecrowES, on 19 March 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

To the greater point... what's to prevent PGI from ignoring lore and doing what they want? Nothing. They can choose to do whatever they want with these mechs. They could release every single mech with clan tech on it on the Clan side forever if they choose to. It wouldn't be in-keeping with lore though. And nothing about their game systems says they have to.

However, I don't think we'll see PGI just toss the lore out. History has shown they're very careful about sticking to lore, even to the detriment of their own systems. Even discussions with PGI on whether or not the MkII will be released has shown that PGI favors adherence to lore over making a quick buck, and that's an extremely important point to remember.

I wow, I cut most your other stuff out because besides a few nitpicks on minor details it for once is pretty spot on. well done sir.

Ill quote this chunk because of the reality of MWO. Your basis of Nova Cat / Mad Cat Mk II relies on PGI making a distinction of faction usage that doesn't even exist in the game as far as IS to IS goes.

Nothing stops Davions from using Dragons though it's a Kuritain only design in buying and usage. Other than Mercs only the Kurtians actually bought them. (Davion/Steiner salvaged them) We don't see Blackjacks as only Davion as other factions largely gave up on the mech. The same carries for jagermechs, Panthers, Wolfhounds, and numerous other mechs.

I point these out because this is the easiest for of "fluff usage" balancing. IS mechs in IS factions.

So what leads you to believe that they're going to suddenly start using "fluff usage" on clan mechs used by IS factions (or sub factions as you call the Nova Cats)?

[Imperius]

Lucian Nostra, on 19 March 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

I wow, I cut most your other stuff out because besides a few nitpicks on minor details it for once is pretty spot on. well done sir.

Ill quote this chunk because of the reality of MWO. Your basis of Nova Cat / Mad Cat Mk II relies on PGI making a distinction of faction usage that doesn't even exist in the game as far as IS to IS goes.

Nothing stops Davions from using Dragons though it's a Kuritain only design in buying and usage. Other than Mercs only the Kurtians actually bought them. (Davion/Steiner salvaged them) We don't see Blackjacks as only Davion as other factions largely gave up on the mech. The same carries for jagermechs, Panthers, Wolfhounds, and numerous other mechs.

I point these out because this is the easiest for of "fluff usage" balancing. IS mechs in IS factions.

So what leads you to believe that they're going to suddenly start using "fluff usage" on clan mechs used by IS factions (or sub factions as you call the Nova Cats)?

Meh, let him be free bumps to the Mad Cat MK II thread. He's so wrong that no will will actually pay mind to him, but he makes this thread "the cream of the crop and the cream will rise to the top - Macho Man Randy Savage "Oh! yeah!"

[LastKhan]

Imperius, on 19 March 2016 - 05:09 PM, said:

He's so wrong that no will will actually pay mind to him

But we are paying mind to him or did you not read the past two pages? You can return to the abyss now.

[No Brakes On The Syrup Train]

by your logic Scarecrow, the Kodiak should be an innersphere mech. Ghost bears are situated in the Inner sphere. what about the wolves? should the timberwolf be an innersphere mech? both of their factions have territory in the inner sphere. Scarecrow, your logic literally doesnt make sense.

[Imperius]

LastKhan, on 19 March 2016 - 05:23 PM, said:

But we are paying mind to him or did you not read the past two pages? You can return to the abyss now.

I think most in here posting are just bored and it's something to do in between drops. People are replying because they just want to confirm that warning labels are protecting too many people these days.

[DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley]

No Brakes On The Syrup Train, on 19 March 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

by your logic Scarecrow, the Kodiak should be an innersphere mech. Ghost bears are situated in the Inner sphere. what about the wolves? should the timberwolf be an innersphere mech? both of their factions have territory in the inner sphere. Scarecrow, your logic literally doesnt make sense.

You have just hit the Liberty Wall of Diabeetus, I'm sorry you have no breaks, it must have been devastating.

[Metus regem]

No Brakes On The Syrup Train, on 19 March 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

by your logic Scarecrow, the Kodiak should be an innersphere mech. Ghost bears are situated in the Inner sphere. what about the wolves? should the timberwolf be an innersphere mech? both of their factions have territory in the inner sphere. Scarecrow, your logic literally doesnt make sense.

Fallowing his logic, the Kodiak should be Ghost Bear only, as it was by lore at this point (3053), as well as the Timber Wolf being general Clan as it was at 3053.

Post 3060, the Kodiak would be IS and Clan as Snow Raven had a few, but post 3060 Ghost Bear formed the Ghost Bear Domnion in the old FRR, at this point FRR would stop being a faction, replaced by GBD. The Timber Wolf post 3060 would be everywhere as the IS made a point of capturing when they could during operations Bulldog and Serpent.


I do see where he is coming from, post 3060 things get very complicated Tech wise, as both Clan and IS use each other's equipment. If we are going to jump into the 3060's and keep the division between the factions based solely on Tech, then units like the Mad Cat Mk. II should be excluded from CW.

[Imperius]

Metus regem, on 19 March 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

Fallowing his logic, the Kodiak should be Ghost Bear only, as it was by lore at this point (3053), as well as the Timber Wolf being general Clan as it was at 3053.

Post 3060, the Kodiak would be IS and Clan as Snow Raven had a few, but post 3060 Ghost Bear formed the Ghost Bear Domnion in the old FRR, at this point FRR would stop being a faction, replaced by GBD. The Timber Wolf post 3060 would be everywhere as the IS made a point of capturing when they could during operations Bulldog and Serpent.


I do see where he is coming from, post 3060 things get very complicated Tech wise, as both Clan and IS use each other's equipment. If we are going to jump into the 3060's and keep the division between the factions based solely on Tech, then units like the Mad Cat Mk. II should be excluded from CW.

False should be excluded from mix tech... it's not hard people...

[ScarecrowES]

Lucian Nostra, on 19 March 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

I wow, I cut most your other stuff out because besides a few nitpicks on minor details it for once is pretty spot on. well done sir.

Ill quote this chunk because of the reality of MWO. Your basis of Nova Cat / Mad Cat Mk II relies on PGI making a distinction of faction usage that doesn't even exist in the game as far as IS to IS goes.

Nothing stops Davions from using Dragons though it's a Kuritain only design in buying and usage. Other than Mercs only the Kurtians actually bought them. (Davion/Steiner salvaged them) We don't see Blackjacks as only Davion as other factions largely gave up on the mech. The same carries for jagermechs, Panthers, Wolfhounds, and numerous other mechs.

I point these out because this is the easiest for of "fluff usage" balancing. IS mechs in IS factions.

So what leads you to believe that they're going to suddenly start using "fluff usage" on clan mechs used by IS factions (or sub factions as you call the Nova Cats)?

Ah, but you miss the grand scheme of faction availability in MWO. Every minor faction puts their toys in the major faction's toybox, and every other minor faction in that major faction gets to play with any toy in that box, right?

That's the distinction MWO makes to simplify faction availability. Because realistically, getting the whole thing right would be a mess. So in the end, it's only worth noting which major faction a minor faction or mech would fall under. You've seen me, in these threads, point out just how summarily complicated an accurate faction warfare setup would be, and I'm certainly never going to argue for that. But getting the overarching theme right is important.

So what's the overarching theme of the Nova Cat? What's important to get right about that one? The Nova Cat was the totem mech of a Clan that was historically Crusader - a Clan which went to war against the Inner Sphere, and while there found more kinship in the enemy than in its allies. Nova Cat went full Warden. Its mystics saw the coming of the second Star League and knew their place was in it. Nova Cat betrayed their allies, found themselves absorbed by new friends, and produced a mech which was to serve as a grand re-emergence to the galaxy on the side of a united Inner Sphere. When the mech was first seen on the battlefield, it was at the front of an advancing Star League. The mech, Nova Cat, represents a cultural shift in the Clans that sees the Wardens rushing to their sworn duties to protect the Inner Sphere. And under the heel of that mech was crushed the whole of Clan Smoke Jaguar.

I know that's all a bit poetic, but the Nova Cat is a meaningful mech in Lore. To drop it meaninglessly on the side of the Clans that it fought iconically against is such a horrible waste.

The MkII... It shows another cultural shift in the Clans. Diamond Shark providing the MkII to the Inner Sphere marks the beginning of an age of cooperation between the two factions. It marks the shift away from the us vs. them mentality that existed between the Homeworld Clans and the Inner Sphere, and heralds an age where both the Clans and the Inner Sphere start working together (welcome to the Jihad). Before this point, there was still a large rift between the IS and the Clans in clan space. Not long after, even Jade Falcon moves into the Sphere. There is significance to lore for the MkII landing in the toumans of IS Clans and in the militaries of the IS houses.

So no, I don't expect to get the little things right... but yeah, I expect the large brush strokes to be there.

Will PGI deign to be so nuanced? Who knows. They have an official lore consultant after all. That might mean something.

[ScarecrowES]

Metus regem, on 19 March 2016 - 05:55 PM, said:

Fallowing his logic, the Kodiak should be Ghost Bear only, as it was by lore at this point (3053), as well as the Timber Wolf being general Clan as it was at 3053.

Post 3060, the Kodiak would be IS and Clan as Snow Raven had a few, but post 3060 Ghost Bear formed the Ghost Bear Domnion in the old FRR, at this point FRR would stop being a faction, replaced by GBD. The Timber Wolf post 3060 would be everywhere as the IS made a point of capturing when they could during operations Bulldog and Serpent.


I do see where he is coming from, post 3060 things get very complicated Tech wise, as both Clan and IS use each other's equipment. If we are going to jump into the 3060's and keep the division between the factions based solely on Tech, then units like the Mad Cat Mk. II should be excluded from CW.

It's an interesting problem. The Kodiak doesn't have a very nice line you can draw. Hell, Ghost Bear as a faction presents a problem.

So, the Kodiak is introduced while Ghost Bear was firmly Clan, right? 3053, after the truce of Tukkayyid, so the Clans weren't pushing south to Terra anymore. At this point Ghost Bear was still Crusader, and the Crusaders weren't playing nice with the Inner Sphere during the truce. The Kodiak is extremely important to Ghost Bear, and so I'd be inclined to say whichever side of the fight Ghost Bear is on, the Kodiak STAYS on. So long as Ghost Bear is Clan, the mech should stay Clan. And since in MWO, every minor faction in a major faction can use everyone else's toys, everyone on the Clan side gets the Kodiak.

I just want to make it clear, if I haven't before, that I have NO problem with the grand toybox system MWO has going. It's the only truly workable way to do things AND remain at least in the ballpark of lore. So if Ghost Bear is Clan, I don't see any reason the other Clans couldn't use the Kodiak in MWO. It's a war... allies cooperate. I just want to make sure the right toys are going into the right toy box.

However... Ghost Bear's history through the end of the Clan Invasion and beyond is very interesting, right? Before Operation Bulldog, they start moving their people into their Inner Sphere holdings and go full Warden. They find kinship in the Inner Sphere faction that they trampled through during the invasion... more kinship than they felt for their fellow Clans. So their trajectory is a bit like Nova Cat that way. But rather than joining the Inner Sphere like Wolf and Nova Cat did, Ghost Bear basically goes neutral.

They sit out Operation Bulldog. Like the rest of the Wardens, they sit out the Great Refusal. In the end, they leave clan space and take up permanent residence in the Inner Sphere in 3060. They're never abjured. They remain Clan, and aren't exactly friendly with the Sphere. They go to war with Kurita (and Nova Cat). They start to absorb what's left of the FRR. They offer a home for other Warden clans that end up leaving the Homeworlds.

They're a really hard problem to crack, aren't they? When we get to 3059, what do we do with them? For MWO's purposes, they're not really Clan OR Inner Sphere. They don't play by the rules. We could maybe fudge their alignment a little bit and merely leave them Clan if we move to 3059. Sure, they don't try to resume hostilities with the Inner Sphere once Bulldog begins, but we can be sure they'd protect their holdings if the Inner Sphere tried to attack them. And since they never turn openly hostile to other Clans (except when at war with Kurita), and remain active in-counsel with other clans, there's no reason to have them fighting on a side against the Clans.

So for Ghost Bear... relationship status? It's complicated.

The Timberwolf? Wolf was firmly Clan when that came out. They were comfy on the Homeworlds. The invasion hadn't even started. I don't think there's any question about the alignment or permeation of the Timberwolf throughout the Clans. MWO doesn't let us draw the distinction between the TBRs alignment with Clan Wolf as a Clan or just Clans in general. And that's fine. It's more simple this way. Buuuuuut...

What about the Arctic Wolf? Produced in 3059 by Clan Wolf-in-Exile as soon as it arrives at Arc-Royal after being abjured by the Clans after the Refusal War. Clan tech, battlemech... produced by a Clan. But, Wolf was aligned with the Inner Sphere at the time, and the Arctic Wolf went to battle on their behalf in Operation Bulldog. Clan by tech. Inner Sphere by faction. The alignment of the Timberwolf in MWO won't be in question. But the Arctic Wolf will be. And the Arctic Wolf is as iconic to Wolf-in-Exile as the Nova Cat is to Clan Nova Cat, and for the very same reasons. It MUST be Inner Sphere.

I'm not terribly sure that mechs that present problems with tech or alignment should be excluded from the game, or CW if added. Being that the game would be so easy to adjust to a galaxy state in which those mechs could operate comfortably without causing any uneasiness, lore or balance concerns... why don't we just move the timeline to bring it in line with that state?

3059 is a perfect time to move to. At that point, and well into the 3060s, the map stays basically the same. Not much of any importance to MWO changes. The conflict still has two very distinct sides... it's still basically Inner Sphere vs Clan, but some of the players are now different. The tech situation? We have that covered... everyone gets access to every kind of tech for faction play, just as it already is in Quick Play... but maybe we create rules for just how much cross-faction tech you're allowed to bring in a drop... who knows. I'm sure PGI could come up with a satisfying solution.

You know what's awesome about everyone using both kinds of tech? We no longer have to worry about having to make both tech bases exactly balanced on an item-by-item equivalency basis. They can be different and unique. And we don't have to worry about introducing new tech throwing the whole sense of balance out of whack. So new tech can finally be introduced. Tons of new mechs - with and without new tech. New factions to play as. New paint schemes and other fun things to sell. A better game and more revenue for PGI. It's a win for everyone.

And for you folks advocating for the MkII, Nova Cat, whatever. No more excuses. They're fair game, in all their full glory. No reservations.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 19 March 2016 - 09:11 PM.

[CK16]

Scarecrow I don't get what is so hard to grasp here.

Who built the Mad Cat Mk.II? Who was it intended for?

Who built the Nova Cat? Who was it intended for?

The answer is a simple and straight forward for both, Clan....


There is a a very simple concept here

Was it one of the original houses? That is what I mean by Inner Sphere factions

If it was formed by Kerensky and took part in the Exodus that it is a Clan faction, no matter where it settles, even the Ghost Bear Dominion would be considered Clan, they still bread warriors and followed Clan rituals mostly, they still heavily used Clan Designed mechs and not ones produced by the houses.


It does not matter who used a few of them, as stated the Kodiak was very much only a clan Ghost Bear mech, the Timberwolf was very heavily only a Clan Wolf mech, yet all clans have access to them, and what about the Ebjon Jag, thing was super rare for awhile and strickly Smoke Jaguar. The Dragon for Kurita as stated yet anyone can use it from the Inner Sphere houses., ect. ect. ect.

PGI would want to avoid very complex theroy here that you keep saying, cause it is a very very very long stretch to what you say for both mechs, if they made either of both Nova Cat and Mad Cat Mk.II Inner Sphere you would have many out raged, and no it wouldn't be pointless bitching they are both clan mechs once again and many do know of its history but it is seriously a no brainier that it is a Clan mech and so is the Nova Cat, I do not get why you disagree with this simply because a few were used by a few Inner Sphere houses. AT BEST we would see a few be use able by both factions, but even this is a long shot, you wanting to make both exclusive to the Inner Sphere factions will not happen, no matter what you say that is a radical out of line theroy and not even a long shot could express how unlikely that out come is no matter how much you state your half truths and borderline lies. It was not a common mech for Inner Sphere houses, it was much more prevalent in Clan toumans regardless of located inside the Inner Sphere.

We seem to disagree on what we consider Clan and Inner Sphere...the Game is pretty Black and White on this matter, so is much of lore on this, even Wolf in Exile is still considered a clan, they follow clan traditions they might ally with some of the House factions from time to time, but they don't share their mechs with them, quiaff?

I am not arguing who used them, I can read plain English and see that some IS factions used them, I can see Nova Cat helped take out Smoke Jag...that does not make it an Inner sphere mech or faction though...seriously...this is getting very old that you dispute simple logic here. Cause no one see's it the way you do, many agree it will be a simple answer..... as it will be Clan.

You say Russ wont add it cause of Lore? No, he has never said that at all. He has only said due to current rough timeline of it being 3053 they want to keep a few more mechs from and before this era and build up to it. It would stand out pretty clearly as the only mech very far out of time frame here. No where has he said the Mad Cat Mk.II would cause faction issues...that is an out right lie. Trust me I have done as much research on this as I can and don't get Imperious started on every comment Russ has said about this mech or even remotely related. The issue is not Lore the issue is Chassis date compared to all others.

I will not change my title or my stance here, and once again it is a Clan battlemech end of discussion, seriously. I strongly feel you are wrong on this simple concept here. They will end up a Clan mechs, I can not wait for these announcement's and see how many post's you will post trying to dispute even Russ, PGI, or other Batteltech sources. I think the majority of people here know it was mainly used by Clan's, its not a hard concept to grasp, why do you have to be so flat out arrogant to listen to us on this? We tell you are first nicely why you are wrong and reasons why, and it continues and now we are telling you, you are crazy to keep this up cause you look like a rambling fool and we are getting more and more angry with your lack of understanding cause you have a few little grey area tid bits to support your theroy? You are trying to convince us the sky is Neon Red, and Grass is neon orange, its not going to happen.