140 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 09:53 AM, said:

(IS is typically required to load a larger standard to match speed, sacrificing weight that could be used for matching alphas and/or equipping armor).

And this where you are wrong, the best IS mechs run XLs, and luckily the armor/structure buffs helps out with XL viability, and in some cases (like assaults) that really doesn't matter.

Yes, without quirks the Clan XL is in fact better, and I would be first in line for making it so both XLs are equal, but to say that automatically means Clans are always better? Give me a break.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

And this where you are wrong, the best IS mechs run XLs, and luckily the armor/structure buffs helps out with XL viability, and in some cases (like assaults) that really doesn't matter.

So you tell me, which IS 'mechs are 'the best' and can run XL's with impunity, in your opinion?

Regardless of any structure buffs, an IS running an XL is 'game over' when the ST gets popped.

I'm unaware of any IS 'mechs currently buffed to DOUBLE the armor/structure of the ST so that popping ONE requires the same damage inflicted as popping TWO Clan ST's. If there is one, point it out I admit to not being intimate with EVERY IS 'mech's buffs, so I don't discount the possibility there is one.

Quote

Yes, without quirks the Clan XL is in fact better, and I would be first in line for making it so both XLs are equal, but to say that automatically means Clans are always better? Give me a break.

For any Clan chassis other than the IIC, your builds are oriented around the engine you can't swap (which is done to balance the fact that Clans can trade out Omnipods), those 'mechs based on engine alone, start out OP.

For example on the EBJ, your engine is an XL325.

From the 'get go' you start out with two more ST slots available (barring any other equipment PGI decided you can't move).

For an IS 65 ton 'mech to load an XL325, they are down two crit slots and ST loss survivability.

So... Load up a STANDARD 325?

Sure, then the IS gets to match the Clan ST loss survivability, and speed, and even gains 4 slots of crit locations over the EBJ, to use for other things, BUT, has to sacrifice 11.5 tons of weight to do so, which SIGNIFIANTLY reduces the alpha and/or armor that pilot can bring to the battle.

This issue with balance has to be systemic, what happens when we add A+B+C+etc vs. the opposite equivalent on the other side? Unfortunately the debate, and apparently PGI's practice has been a bit myopic, focusing one niggling little detail after another.

[LegendaryArticuno]

Every IS light should run XL... medium is an acceptable risk. Heavy and Assault is a no go.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

So you tell me, which IS 'mechs are 'the best' and can run XL's with impunity, in your opinion?

Regardless of any structure buffs, an IS running an XL is 'game over' when the ST gets popped.

I'm unaware of any IS 'mechs currently buffed to DOUBLE the armor/structure of the ST so that popping ONE requires the same damage inflicted as popping TWO Clan ST's. If there is one, point it out I admit to not being intimate with EVERY IS 'mech's buffs, so I don't discount the possibility there is one.

For any Clan chassis other than the IIC, your builds are oriented around the engine you can't swap (which is done to balance the fact that Clans can trade out Omnipods), those 'mechs based on engine alone, start out OP.

For example on the EBJ, your engine is an XL325.

From the 'get go' you start out with two more ST slots available (barring any other equipment PGI decided you can't move).

For an IS 65 ton 'mech to load an XL325, they are down two crit slots and ST loss survivability.

So... Load up a STANDARD 325?

Sure, then the IS gets to match the Clan ST loss survivability, and speed, and even gains 4 slots of crit locations over the EBJ, to use for other things, BUT, has to sacrifice 11.5 tons of weight to do so, which SIGNIFIANTLY reduces the alpha and/or armor that pilot can bring to the battle.

This issue with balance has to be systemic, what happens when we add A+B+C+etc vs. the opposite equivalent on the other side? Unfortunately the debate, and apparently PGI's practice has been a bit myopic, focusing one niggling little detail after another.

LFE and compact heat sinks solve your issue with balance outright. CHS might even tip the scale toward the IS a bit because single crit DHS...but that is another discussion.

[Dimento Graven]

LegendaryArticuno, on 17 February 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

Every IS light should run XL... medium is an acceptable risk. Heavy and Assault is a no go.

And yet, should an IS light duel a Clan light, won't the Clanner typically have a larger alpha, AND, no question here, ST loss survivability that the IS pilot with his XL definitely won't have?

Are any IS lights quirked/buffed to have each ST double the armor/structure of the Clan equivalent's armor/structure?

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

LFE and compact heat sinks solve your issue with balance outright. CHS might even tip the scale toward the IS a bit because single crit DHS...but that is another discussion.

Are these in the game, or have they even been announced to be added to the game?

If not, there's no point in mentioning them in a balance discussion...

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

So you tell me, which IS 'mechs are 'the best' and can run XL's with impunity, in your opinion?

Lights, Blackjack, Griffin, Shadow Hawk, Quickdraw, Grasshopper, Black Knight, Battlemaster, Banshee. I would list more if they had higher engine caps, but some are stuck with STDs and less firepower sadly.

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

And yet, should an IS light duel a Clan light, won't the Clanner typically have a larger alpha, AND, no question here, ST loss survivability that the IS pilot with his XL definitely won't have?

If you are lights, and not going for legs (outside of Jenners), then chances are you are doing it wrong anyway.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 February 2016 - 11:21 AM.

[Deathlike]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

No. It's not like we haven't see this thing before... from the same person no less.

The cycle continues as long as this repeats itself.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 11:19 AM, said:

Lights, Blackjack, Griffin, Shadow Hawk, Quickdraw, Grasshopper, Black Knight, Battlemaster, Banshee. I would list more if they had higher engine caps, but some are stuck with STDs and less firepower sadly.

None of these 'mechs can run an XL with impunity.

Lose an ST on one of these with an XL, and the pilot gets to watch other people play for the duration of the battle.

Yes with lights, it's ALMOST a non-factor just because:

1. Typically the IS lights don't have a lot of potential for high alphas anyway.
2. Typical IS light sizes and speed make hitting them difficult to begin with (though again, one good alpha to an ST, dead light 'mech).

Quote

If you are lights, and not going for legs (outside of Jenners), then chances are you are doing it wrong anyway.

If I'm fighting an IS light being piloted by a GOOD pilot, I'm gonna go for an ST. Sure, killing a leg stops it and makes it a harder target, but it's actually easier to hit an ST than a leg when fighting someone who knows how to pilot, feather jump jets, use terrain to hide legs, et al. The ST is a larger target, and you open one up, the GOOD pilot typically moves off... In an attempt to let you get distracted by another target so that they can come up behind you and avoid facing your weapons.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, BUT, I've had some relatively consistent success fighting lights that way...

[MischiefSC]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

Quoted and liked again for well placed Frozen gif.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

None of these 'mechs can run an XL with impunity.

Most of them suffer from larger than normal CTs or the ability to roll damage really well because of how thin the hitboxes are for the torso in general. Do you die from ST loss? Yes, but that isn't the sole indicator of how viable it is with an XL, how much health you had left when you died is and all of them tend to be worth the risk.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 February 2016 - 12:26 PM.

[Revis Volek]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

None of these 'mechs can run an XL with impunity.

Lose an ST on one of these with an XL, and the pilot gets to watch other people play for the duration of the battle.

Yes with lights, it's ALMOST a non-factor just because:

1. Typically the IS lights don't have a lot of potential for high alphas anyway.
2. Typical IS light sizes and speed make hitting them difficult to begin with (though again, one good alpha to an ST, dead light 'mech).

If I'm fighting an IS light being piloted by a GOOD pilot, I'm gonna go for an ST. Sure, killing a leg stops it and makes it a harder target, but it's actually easier to hit an ST than a leg when fighting someone who knows how to pilot, feather jump jets, use terrain to hide legs, et al. The ST is a larger target, and you open one up, the GOOD pilot typically moves off... In an attempt to let you get distracted by another target so that they can come up behind you and avoid facing your weapons.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, BUT, I've had some relatively consistent success fighting lights that way...

I run all of those mechs with XL with absolutely no problems....

[Dimento Graven]

Revis Volek, on 17 February 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

I run all of those mechs with XL with absolutely no problems....

Up until you have no ST, in which case, you don't have anything except a front row seat observing someone else play...

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

Up until you have no ST, in which case, you don't have anything except a front row seat observing someone else play...

They have shield arms for that...or do you never torso twist?

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

They have shield arms for that...or do you never torso twist?

Neat!

When did shield arms and torso twisting = infinite ST armor?

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

Neat!

When did shield arms and torso twisting = infinite ST armor?

Shield arms = lots more protection for STs, and also free 60% damage reduction to ST after the fact...

If you are going to try to dismiss an argument, at least know the mechanics behind it, and understand that it is actually relevant.

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

Shield arms = lots more protection for STs, and also free 60% damage reduction to ST after the fact...

If you are going to try to dismiss an argument, at least know the mechanics behind it, and understand that it is actually relevant.

Ok here's why I'm dismissive:

Random IS 65 ton mech with XL vs. Random Clan 65 ton mech with XL
Not so random generalized assumptions based on the randomness of builds:
Both with equal alphas and heat dissipation
Both with equal range
Both with equal armor setups

Both battling with equal amounts of skill, and both torso twisting like crazy.

Which 'mech has the better survivability?

That's right, the Clanner.

If the IS loses an ST, even with all the torso twisting in the universe, he's still dead, where as the Clanner loses an ST, he's down some speed, some weapons, BUT, he's still fighting.

You can't say "IS can torso twist, so it's ok that they die with an XL loaded when they lose an ST", as if to say Clans don't torso twist as well, AND STILL GET TO KEEP FIGHTING AFTER AN ST LOSS...

Your argument is myopic and doesn't look at the issue systemically...

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

Your argument is myopic and doesn't look at the issue systemically...

I believe you are confounding your argument with everyone else in the entire thread's points.

You have not meaningfully considered any single point in this entire thread.

/thread

[Dimento Graven]

Gyrok, on 17 February 2016 - 02:37 PM, said:

I believe you are confounding your argument with everyone else in the entire thread's points.

You have not meaningfully considered any single point in this entire thread.


/thread

So somehow this:

Quote

Random IS 65 ton mech with XL vs. Random Clan 65 ton mech with XL
Not so random generalized assumptions based on the randomness of builds:
Both with equal alphas and heat dissipation
Both with equal range
Both with equal armor setups

Both battling with equal amounts of skill, and both torso twisting like crazy.

Which 'mech has the better survivability?

That's right, the Clanner.

If the IS loses an ST, even with all the torso twisting in the universe, he's still dead, where as the Clanner loses an ST, he's down some speed, some weapons, BUT, he's still fighting.

You can't say "IS can torso twist, so it's ok that they die with an XL loaded when they lose an ST", as if to say Clans don't torso twist as well, AND STILL GET TO KEEP FIGHTING AFTER AN ST LOSS...

Is wrong?

When people's 'points' aren't flying the face of the actual facts of the system and how it functions, I'll consider them.

[Gyrok]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 02:51 PM, said:

So somehow this:

Is wrong?

When people's 'points' aren't flying the face of the actual facts of the system and how it functions, I'll consider them.

Yes, you are wrong.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 02:24 PM, said:

Random IS 65 ton mech with XL vs. Random Clan 65 ton mech with XL
Not so random generalized assumptions based on the randomness of builds:
Both with equal alphas and heat dissipation
IS has 75% the laser duration of the Clan build
Both with equal range
Both with equal armor setups with the IS having around 25%-50% more structure.

Fixed some things for you since they do make a difference. It certainly isn't perfect that we have this mess of balance we have now, but meh, it is what PGI has painted themselves into a corner with by refusing to actually balance equipment.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 February 2016 - 02:56 PM.