271 replies to this topic

[Averen]

Yosharian, on 17 February 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

I get the impression people saying It's fine, learn to play, stop whining, etc haven't understood the OP's post.

That said, the title itself is - unvoluntarily - misleading, cause they are not broken, but there is an exploit. And there are people complaining their super long range clan mechs are getting overheated by flamers. :^D

Edited by Averen, 17 February 2016 - 07:52 AM.

[FupDup]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 February 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

I have always said flamers need to stay useless, because CC weapons should not exist in an FPS - flamers that are useful are CC weapons, by definition. I THOUGHT PGI understood this very basic bit of game design which is why they didnt buff them, but apparently not....

If we really are concerned about CC, then there have actually been some forum suggestions to make Flamers deal high DPS but no heat to the target.

[Kossi]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

But guys, PGI buffed flamers! This has been a community TOP PRIORITY since like 2002. Or maybe it was 2012, whatever, YEARS. YEARS we have been asking for this and they finally delivered. The game is so much better now that flamers aren't useless. I'm so glad PGI finally addressed this TOP PRIORITY! Yay flamers!

The only thing that would make this better is the return of knockdowns. The Flame would be truly P2W with 4 flamers. We'd have TWO versions of stunlock. It would be so great guys!

Why PGI never listen to comp players? Community have to suffer because of a few no good loud mouths who wants to play like this would be a freaking role game??? I do not care about lore. I just want to play a good robot game with good players. Do not take that away from me please.

[Roadkill]

Averen, on 17 February 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

but there is an exploit.

There's no exploit.

This doesn't require a macro. Once you've heated up your target with your flamers, switch to chain fire for the flamers.

This situation is, in effect, by design. It's just that PGI is often bad at design.

[Mystere]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 February 2016 - 03:55 AM, said:

My main issue is you could take to two scrubbiest pilots ever, put them in two ACHs, one with 6 flamers and one with 6xSPL, and those two players could kill Proton, or any of the absolute best players in this game with a 100% success rate unless they were driving a mech with (U)AC5s or Gauss. Without a stunlock the sort of fight that would end with two dead arctic cheetahs and a 90% health elite player.

Are you seriously complaining that teamwork works against a single opponent?

[H I A S]

Mystere, on 17 February 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

Are you seriously complaining that teamwork works against a single opponent?

Right, holding down a mousebutton = teamwork. lol

[Roadkill]

arivio, on 17 February 2016 - 08:45 AM, said:

Right, holding down a mousebutton = teamwork. lol

2 vs 1 = teamwork. Duh.

[Mystere]

Roadkill, on 17 February 2016 - 08:47 AM, said:

2 vs 1 = teamwork. Duh.

You sir win the internet for the day as far as I am concerned.

[Widowmaker1981]

FupDup, on 17 February 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

If we really are concerned about CC, then there have actually been some forum suggestions to make Flamers deal high DPS but no heat to the target.

absolutely fine with that. I just object to any kind of stunlocking.

Mystere, on 17 February 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

Are you seriously complaining that teamwork works against a single opponent?

regardless of skill, is my point.

Also, with a macro and a 4 flamer 3SPL light, ONE crap player could kill the best player in the game if that player was in a mech without AC5s or Gauss

[Averen]

Roadkill, on 17 February 2016 - 08:23 AM, said:

There's no exploit.

This doesn't require a macro. Once you've heated up your target with your flamers, switch to chain fire for the flamers.

This situation is, in effect, by design. It's just that PGI is often bad at design.

Ok, it's a very easy to use exploit.^^

Widowmaker1981, on 17 February 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

absolutely fine with that. I just object to any kind of stunlocking.



regardless of skill, is my point.

Also, with a macro and a 4 flamer 3SPL light, ONE crap player could kill the best player in the game if that player was in a mech without AC5s or Gauss

You got a point, but there is context:

The best player in the world ->
a) wouldn't let some flamer guy get so close without making him pay
has a team to support him
c) doesn't overheat because flamer by themselves don't stunlock
d) adapts to flamer play and knows how to counter it

That's kinda like saying the best player in the world loses in a long range duell with a short range mech, regardless of skill.

Edited by Averen, 17 February 2016 - 09:12 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Averen, on 17 February 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

a) wouldn't let some flamer guy get so close without making him pay
has a team to support him
c) doesn't overheat because flamer by themselves don't stunlock
d) adapts to flamer play and knows how to counter it

Yes, much of the time team situations will not allow this to happen, because team mates will give cover fire. However, sometimes you're the last one alive. 2 v 1 is hard enough without making it actually not possible, however good you are.
There is one counter to the current flamers, and only one. Running zero heat weapons (AC5/Gauss). every other weapon system causes enough heat that you cannot fire them from 90% cap without shutting down (well, AC10s you CAN fire, but youd have to be very careful), and you cannot prevent a mech popping round a corner and shooting you, it takes 1 second to be capped and unable to fire a single energy weapon . Flamers on fast mechs are right now a hard counter to heavy/assault mechs with no ballistic hardpoints.

by the way 'doesnt overheat because flamers dont stunlock' - being unable to return fire is stunlock. yes you can move, no, you cant move fast enough to escape.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 17 February 2016 - 09:21 AM.

[Mystere]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 February 2016 - 09:04 AM, said:

Also, with a macro and a 4 flamer 3SPL light, ONE crap player could kill the best player in the game if that player was in a mech without AC5s or Gauss

If a player with longer-ranged weapons is caught totally unawares, why should they be not as good as dead?

And finally, I have news for you: You do not need a macro.

Averen, on 17 February 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

The best player in the world ->
a) wouldn't let some flamer guy get so close without making him pay
has a team to support him
c) doesn't overheat because flamer by themselves don't stunlock
d) adapts to flamer play and knows how to counter it

That's kinda like saying the best player in the world loses in a long range duell with a short range mech, regardless of skill.

This person gets it.

Edited by Mystere, 17 February 2016 - 09:23 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Averen, on 17 February 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

The best player in the world ->
a) wouldn't let some flamer guy get so close without making him pay

A standard non-stupid player could close to ANY player in a heavy/assault while in an ACH or FS9 (or similar) on just about any map, so this point is false.

Mystere, on 17 February 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

If a player with longer-ranged weapons is caught totally unawares, why should they be not as good as dead?

And finally, I have news for you: You do not need a macro.

Longer ranged weapons aren't the issue. Ironically, a dual gauss mech would be best suited to this situation. A brawler with MPLs/AC20/ SRMs however would be completely SoL.

[Averen]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 February 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

Yes, much of the time team situations will not allow this to happen, because team mates will give cover fire. However, sometimes you're the last one alive.
There is one counter to the current flamers, and only one. Running zero heat weapons (AC5/Gauss). every other weapon system causes enough heat that you cannot fire them from 90% cap without shutting down (well, AC10s you CAN fire, but youd have to be very careful), and you cannot prevent a mech popping round a corner and shooting you, it takes 1 second to be capped and unable to fire a single energy weapon . Flamers on fast mechs are right now a hard counter to heavy/assault mechs with no ballistic hardpoints.

You're exaggerating pretty hard. Sound like a claim that energy boats are suddenly dead. 'Hard counter' to laser boats in sub 90m. That's not very much. And again, solo assaults are dead meat anyway.

Quote

by the way 'doesnt overheat because flamers dont stunlock' - being unable to return fire is stunlock. yes you can move, no, you cant move fast enough to escape.

If you are all alone and there is no team to protect you. Flamers need constant facetime, so it's only usefull in situations where your target is alone or in the minority. And that situation has almost always ment certain death in MWO.

And no, stun lock means not moving at all. Don't even start semantic arguments to twist the meaning of words, they are utterly useless and don't make your point the least bit better. If anything, they are dishonest.

[Widowmaker1981]

Averen, on 17 February 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

You're exaggerating pretty hard. Sound like a claim that energy boats are suddenly dead. 'Hard counter' to laser boats in sub 90m. That's not very much. And again, solo assaults are dead meat anyway.



If you are all alone and there is no team to protect you. Flamers need constant facetime, so it's only usefull in situations where your target is alone or in the minority. And that situation has almost always ment certain death in MWO.

And no, stun lock means not moving at all. Don't even start semantic arguments to twist the meaning of words, they are utterly useless and don't make your point the least bit better. If anything, they are dishonest.

Lol, fine. Continue believing that the ability to easily and continuously prevent a mech from using any heat based weapons (for potentially minutes) is sensible or balanced. Ill be over here ignoring this idiocy in my UAC5 boat.

actually, you know what? from the lore i read, pilots did NOT like mounting flamers due to the risk of the fuel igniting due to damage and cooking them alive. How about if a flamer get crit, it counts as being continuously fired at the mech that mounted it for the rest of the game?

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 17 February 2016 - 09:32 AM.

[GernMiester]

Once again.. TIE THE DAMN FLAMERS TO JUMP JET FUEL. Pulsing the flamers will use up the fuel and then you are done flaming anything. Jump Jets do this already don't they?

[Sereglach]

GernMiester, on 17 February 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

Once again.. TIE THE DAMN FLAMERS TO JUMP JET FUEL. Pulsing the flamers will use up the fuel and then you are done flaming anything. Jump Jets do this already don't they?

Or PGI could do the really simple solution that I mentioned in this thread, in the patch notes, and in numerous other Flamer threads throughout the years.

No exponential scaling mechanic with no delays in heat generation! ALL SIMPLE, FIXED VALUES! Then set the Flamer to 1.0 DPS, 1.0 HDPS (Heat Damage), .5 Heat Generation.

Problem Solved. Flamer is modest CC weapon that isn't going to stun-lock anyone because there's no more exploit to take advantage of (for those who deny it being an exploit, it's the same as being able to ride on other mechs . . . it's in the game, PGI knows it's there, and you're not supposed to do it . . . it's an exploit).

Regardless, as much of a Flamer advocate and pyro as I am . . . I could probably be living it up through this absolutely horrid patch and stun-lock mechs everywhere (especially if I went and grabbed the macros). In the mean time, however, because I want a legitimately balanced and unbroken weapon, I just won't be playing. I'm sure the trolls are having a blast out there.

[Averen]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 February 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

Lol, fine. Continue believing that the ability to easily and continuously prevent a mech from using any heat based weapons (for potentially minutes) is sensible or balanced. Ill be over here ignoring this idiocy in my UAC5 boat.

actually, you know what? from the lore i read, pilots did NOT like mounting flamers due to the risk of the fuel igniting due to damage and cooking them alive. How about if a flamer get crit, it counts as being continuously fired at the mech that mounted it for the rest of the game?

You are throwing a tantrum hardly a day after the patch, combined with fallacious arguments. Of course that doesn't have much argumentative power.

GernMiester, on 17 February 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

Once again.. TIE THE DAMN FLAMERS TO JUMP JET FUEL. Pulsing the flamers will use up the fuel and then you are done flaming anything. Jump Jets do this already don't they?

But does jet fuel melt battlemechs?

[Mystere]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 February 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

Longer ranged weapons aren't the issue. Ironically, a dual gauss mech would be best suited to this situation. A brawler with MPLs/AC20/ SRMs however would be completely SoL.

You should have focused more on my "caught totally unaware" part rather than on the "longer-ranged weapons" part.

As Sun Tzu himself said, "victory is gained by surprise".

[pwnface]

Widowmaker1981, on 17 February 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

I have always said flamers need to stay useless, because CC weapons should not exist in an FPS - flamers that are useful are CC weapons, by definition. I THOUGHT PGI understood this very basic bit of game design which is why they didnt buff them, but apparently not....

I don't care if there are CC weapons in this game, I think it actually adds to the flavor of the game.

I just have a big problem with CC weapons that have generate ZERO heat on the person using it.

Averen, on 17 February 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

You're exaggerating pretty hard. Sound like a claim that energy boats are suddenly dead. 'Hard counter' to laser boats in sub 90m. That's not very much. And again, solo assaults are dead meat anyway.

Flamers ARE a hard counter to energy boats at under 90m. If you are at 90% heat you aren't shooting any lasers.