97 replies to this topic

[CmdrSpider]

If this were simply TT rules to go by your options would be almost without limit. In MWO you have to deal with the hardpoint issue so all bets are off. But for grins and giggles let me make another suggestion, try adding a 3rd LRM15 instead of upgrading to 2 LRM20's. You would increase your missile count by 5, reduce your critical spaces required by 1, only increase your heat by 3, increase your weight by 1 ton as compared to the double LRM20's your looking for. Also if you took a critical hit to an LRM system you would still retain 2/3 of your fire power instead of 1/2.

[VX5Cueball]

WardenWolf, on 13 July 2012 - 07:46 AM, said:

Switch to an XL engine - you shouldn't be taking a lot of hits anyways. Upgrade to LRM20s, go for 4 tons of ammo (12 shots per launcher), add Case, drop to 2 medium lasers.

I will try that. Sounds about the way I set mine up in the old days.

[OJ191]

CmdrSpider, on 13 July 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

If this were simply TT rules to go by your options would be almost without limit. In MWO you have to deal with the hardpoint issue so all bets are off. But for grins and giggles let me make another suggestion, try adding a 3rd LRM15 instead of upgrading to 2 LRM20's. You would increase your missile count by 5, reduce your critical spaces required by 1, only increase your heat by 3, increase your weight by 1 ton as compared to the double LRM20's your looking for. Also if you took a critical hit to an LRM system you would still retain 2/3 of your fire power instead of 1/2.

For my builds I've just been going under worst case scenario of losing an arm and thus all launchers in it (since catapult missile hardpoints are known to be in the "arms"). So even going 3 LRM15's if they are smart they will aim for the arm with 2 launchers in it.

No need for case because I'm using an XL engine. I could put it in the leg but you can't CASE a leg so ammo explosions would likely destroy my engine anyway. I could put it in the arms but then if I lose an arm not only do I lose half my launchers I also lose half my ammo. By putting the ammo in LT/RT, if it gets to the point that my ammo goes up it is likely that my engine would have gone up anyway.

Edited by OJ191, 13 July 2012 - 10:03 AM.

[Glythe]

OJ191, on 13 July 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

IMO optimal scenario would be LRM20's without artemis but with scouts using NARC, or LRM15 with artemis for random matches.

For random matches you're gonna want to bring scouts with TAG or NARC because I don't think you will see them very often otherwise.

"That scout crap means I can't bring as many weapons"

There is also the possibility that they will combine the effect of Artemis IV and either TAG/NARC. Artemis missiles cost more so they are already balanced; NARC and TAG require risk to the scout so again the balancing element is there.

OJ191, on 13 July 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

No need for case because I'm using an XL engine.

That's really not as true as you think. They already thought about people not bothering to bring CASE because they were using an XL engine. The dev quote basically mentioned that if you have CASE and the ammo blows you will probably still die but the ENTIRE mech won't. I'd rather not have to 100% repair my mech every time someone blew up my torso (especially if my build costs 12 Million). Did I mention you lose the ammunition and have to buy that again too if say you were storing it in an arm that was blown up?

Edited by Glythe, 13 July 2012 - 10:07 AM.

[OJ191]

Glythe, on 13 July 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

For random matches you're gonna want to bring scouts with TAG or NARC because I don't think you will see them very often otherwise.

"That scout crap means I can't bring as many weapons"

There is also the possibility that they will combine the effect of Artemis IV and either TAG/NARC. Artemis missiles cost more so they are already balanced; NARC and TAG require risk to the scout so again the balancing element is there.

I was under the impression that usage of NARC will result in the same hit ratio or even better hit ratio as Artemis (correct me if I am wrong).

When I am scouting I will usually take NARC (maybe not on my Cicada, usage will be more for counterscouting anyway).

But you can't just assume someone will have NARC or TAG in a random match, so you pretty much HAVE to take artemis.

[Glythe]

OJ191, on 13 July 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

I was under the impression that usage of NARC will result in the same hit ratio or even better hit ratio as Artemis (correct me if I am wrong).

I have been told TAG Artemis and Narc do not stack in the TT game. But think about the situation for a minute in terms of the role warfare component. Does it make sense you can bring something that makes part of a scout's job obsolete? No one would use the Artemis IV if they had a good scout or two in their lance. That seems like poor game design. On that note I'm going to make a suggestion about the two being able to stack:

http://mwomercs.com/...er-narc-or-tag/

OJ191, on 13 July 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

But you can't just assume someone will have NARC or TAG in a random match, so you pretty much HAVE to take artemis.

Sure you can... you can bring 1 scout with TAG and 1 scout with NARC in your lance . There is nothing from stopping an Atlas from using either piece of equipment as far as we know. I think 1 ton for a TAG on an Atlas could be amazing if the target remains designated as long as you are in range/los and requires no active input.

Edited by Glythe, 13 July 2012 - 10:25 AM.

[Kraven Kor]

How would 8x LRM-5's stack up?

Quote

Catapult CPLT-X1

Mass: 65 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-F-E
Production Year: 3049
Cost: 13,107,875 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,465

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 260 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor w/ CASE
Armament:
8 LRM-5s w/ Artemis IV FCS
2 Medium Lasers
1 Guardian ECM Suite
1 Beagle Active Probe
1 TAG
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 104 points 3.50
Internal Locations: 5 LA, 5 RA, 2 LL, 2 RL
Engine: XL Fusion Engine 260 7.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 211 13.50
CASE Locations: 1 LT, 1 RT 1.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 21 32
Center Torso (rear) 10
L/R Torso 15 23
L/R Torso (rear) 7
L/R Arm 10 20
L/R Leg 15 30

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TAG HD 0 1 1.00
2 Medium Lasers CT 6 2 2.00
2 LRM-5s RT 4 2 4.00
Artemis IV FCS RT - 2 2.00
Guardian ECM Suite RT 0 2 1.50
2 LRM-5s LT 4 2 4.00
Artemis IV FCS LT - 2 2.00
Beagle Active Probe LT 0 2 1.50
2 LRM-5s RA 4 2 4.00
Artemis IV FCS RA - 2 2.00
2 LRM-5s LA 4 2 4.00
Artemis IV FCS LA - 2 2.00
@LRM-5 (Artemis) (48) RT - 2 2.00
@LRM-5 (Artemis) (48) LT - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 2

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 15
4 3 5 4 0 3 0 Structure: 3
Special Abilities: ECM, PRB, RCN, TAG, CASE, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA, IF 3

[Arikiel]

Ok I actually bothered to go into a builder and spent awhile going over it. Here's what I would do with my Catapult.

Tons: 65
Move: 4/6/2
Engines: Standard
Structure: Endo Steel
Heat Sinks: 10 Double
Armor: 160 (unchanged)
Weapons: 2 LRM 20 (with 4 tons ammo, 2 Artemis IV FCS, and 2 CASE), 3 Medium Lasers.

It's not hugely different from the standard C1 but would do it's job nicely imo.

[OJ191]

Glythe, on 13 July 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

I have been told TAG Artemis and Narc do not stack in the TT game. But think about the situation for a minute in terms of the role warfare component. Does it make sense you can bring something that makes part of a scout's job obsolete? No one would use the Artemis IV if they had a good scout or two in their lance. That seems like poor game design. On that note I'm going to make a suggestion about the two being able to stack.

Sure you can... you can bring 1 scout with TAG and 1 scout with NARC in your lance . There is nothing from stopping an Atlas from using either piece of equipment as far as we know. I think 1 ton for a TAG on an Atlas could be amazing if the target remains designated as long as you are in range/los and requires no active input.

It's a RANDOM MATCH.

You don't have a lance to tell to bring NARC or TAG.

If you do have a lance with you then it isn't a random match, it's coordinated play where you don't need artemis.

[627]

I just watched the heavy breakdown vid again. He fired nearly all 8 volleys with his cat and none of the targets went down. I really have doubts about the lethal punch of LRMs.
What if you pack the cat full of lrm ammo, shot all the missiles and all your opponents are still standing? Tickle them with one small laser?

[Kraven Kor]

Drop the BAP and TAG, and 1.5 tons of armor, to give it back the jump jets.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

If you drop some lasers then dual LRM 20s instead of 15s is entirely possible. You may have to also drop some armor, heatsinks, or jumpjets to get the desired amount of ammo but you'll make it happen; or at least I know I will. I bet the best idea though will be to use double heatsinks and the XL engine. These fyi do 2x the effect for the same weight(Meaning less weight used) but take up twice as many hardpoint slots. But those are slots you likely won't be using anyway with most of your weight going into the bunny ears for LRM 20s.

627, on 13 July 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

I just watched the heavy breakdown vid again. He fired nearly all 8 volleys with his cat and none of the targets went down. I really have doubts about the lethal punch of LRMs.
What if you pack the cat full of lrm ammo, shot all the missiles and all your opponents are still standing? Tickle them with one small laser?

He was firing LRM 15s not 20s, but still missiles do look weak in all the videos I've seen. I hope they get some extra damage by August. Or maybe there is some module that can boost their accuracy, which will mean more dps.(Most of the LRMs seem to miss and hit the ground even with lockon, which is weak)

[Arikiel]

The problem with the XL engines is they go into the side torsos (where your ammo is usually stored). Sure you can fit in more swag by going XL but they can really be a liability by making you more vulnerable to crits. In Mechs that avoid direct combat they can be alright but I try to avoid them on most normal builds.

[OJ191]

Kraven Kor, on 13 July 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

How would 8x LRM-5's stack up?

Don't use CASE with an XL engine... if your side torso blows up you are dead regardless.

And how are you fitting 20 double heatsinks? You don't have the tonnage nor the crits.

You also need 1 artemis per launcher per what I was told earlier in this thread.

How much ammo are you running? Looks like 4 blocks of ammo/96 missiles to me, i'd personally drop some armour and run more but w/e.

It is also highly unlikely you can put launchers in the torso with the hardpoint system.

Anyway the below is what I made of your build, I only had 10 double heatsinks (all you could fit), 1 artemis per launcher, and I removed the CASE.

Edited by OJ191, 13 July 2012 - 10:35 AM.

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

Arikiel, on 13 July 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

The problem with the XL engines is they go into the side torsos (where your ammo is usually stored). Sure you can fit in more swag by going XL but they can really be a liability by making you more vulnerable to crits. In Mechs that avoid direct combat they can be alright but I try to avoid them on most normal builds.

Ya but as I said those are slots a Catapult guy stacking LRM 20s is probably not going to use anyway. You're going to have rows of blank slots if you're using LRM 20s on a Catapult, so why not use them on double heatsinks and the XL Engine to reduce max weight used? This will bump your heat reduction and speed in a cheaper way, freeing up weight for ammo or jumpjets.

[Kerzin]

God I hate LRM’s they are such a broken weapon’s system.

Gets on soapbox.

Any weapon system that loses 30% of its range is just a waste of tonnage in my book, while a weapons system with a max range of 630m (almost 7 football fields) may look great on paper you lose 180m (about 2 football fields) on the bottom end and the sheer randomness of the damage they apply and the many other ways they can be rendered almost ineffective is truly silly hopefully something can be done to make them more useful without overpowering things otherwise I’ll rip the damn things out and kick them to the curb for more armor or engines or something else useful....Sorry bit of a rant.

Gets of soapbox.

But if you insist on using them then I’d recommend leaving the LRM-15’s installed and just upping ammo tonnage and installing Artemis. With Artemis installed your overall fire power will be better than running LRM-20’s without and you won’t have to completely strip out your short and medium range defense and let’s face it even if you have an insanely well-coordinated teem backing you up some close range brawler(s) will get to you at some point.

Additionally you’re ammo will cost less and you will likely have a lower repair bill overall making the mech. more cost effective to run since I’d expect the repair cost to be some factor of the construction cost of the system being repaired.

Edited by Kerzin, 13 July 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Aeryk Corsaer]

MajorLeeHung, on 13 July 2012 - 09:19 AM, said:

After reading many posts to this topic I just wanna point out if the OP is talking about a Cata for MWO there are no XL Engines or Pulse anything... YET.

Besides bigger is not always better. Having 2 LRM-20's is purely an epeen thing. "HEY GUIES! LOOK AT MY E-PENAIS"

Of all the mechs so far I plan to main the cata and the very last thing I will ever do is load 2 LRM-20's. It has a history of good fire power and a great electronics package with moderate maneuverability and being reasonably tough. I would say try it out before you go "glass cannoning" a pretty damn nice mech.

Again thats if the OP is refering to build a Cata for MWO

Not sure about XL engines but pulse lasers are in the game - not experienced enough to find and especially post a link though.

[OJ191]

Arikiel, on 13 July 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

Ok I actually bothered to go into a builder and spent awhile going over it. Here's what I would do with my Catapult.

Tons: 65
Move: 4/6/2
Engines: Standard
Structure: Endo Steel
Heat Sinks: 10 Double
Armor: 160 (unchanged)
Weapons: 2 LRM 20 (with 4 tons ammo, 2 Artemis IV FCS, and 2 CASE), 3 Medium Lasers.

It's not hugely different from the standard C1 but would do it's job nicely imo.

Here you go.

[Arikiel]

Bluten, on 13 July 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

Ya but as I said those are slots a Catapult guy stacking LRM 20s is probably not going to use anyway. You're going to have rows of blank slots if you're using LRM 20s on a Catapult, so why not use them on double heatsinks and the XL Engine to reduce max weight used? This will bump your heat reduction and speed in a cheaper way, freeing up weight for ammo or jumpjets.

No it's not the number of available criticals that's a problem. By taking up more space XL engines increase the odds of an enemy getting an engine hit on you and taking you out of the fight.

Edited by Arikiel, 13 July 2012 - 10:43 AM.

[OJ191]

Kerzin, on 13 July 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

But if you insist on using them then I’d recommend leaving the LRM-15’s installed and just upping ammo tonnage and installing Artemis. With Artemis installed your overall fire power will be better than running LRM-20’s without and you won’t have to completely strip out your short and medium range defense and let’s face it even if you have an insanely well-coordinated teem backing you up some close range brawler(s) will get to you at some point.

Additionally you’re ammo will cost less and you will likely have a lower repair bill overall making the mech. more cost effective to run since I’d expect the repair cost to be some factor of the construction cost of the system being repaired.

Well I managed to get 4x LRM20 intended to be running with a coordinated lance with full scout defense and with TAG and/or NARC so no need for artemis. The fire support firepower is immense but if a healthy scout gets to you, you're screwed.

I can drop ammo for more close in support, or swap to LRM 15's with more armour and proper close in defense if I am worried about being protected (or lack thereof).

Edited by OJ191, 13 July 2012 - 10:48 AM.