114 replies to this topic

[Soultraxx]

Hello all.

I was thinking about the range reductions that IS received as I own a fair few of the affected Mechs - notebly among them being the Top Dog.

First of all I would prefer that they hadnt nerfed them because range is good.

However (for me personally) most of my matches tend to gravitate to sub 300m ranges as the match progresses, even to the point that I end up almost face hugging the enemy sometimes.

Now I havent had a chance to run my Mechs since the patch, but I envision that as long as I play smarter and use cover in the opening minutes of the match then perhaps its not going to be as bad as I first thought.


Your thoughts, agreements, disagreements appreciated.

[mogs01gt]

Not sure why this is even an issue. The range quirks only affected CW.

[MeiSooHaityu]

In solo queue/group queue I don't think the alterations to ranges will be felt too much. Many maps still seem to be smaller, engagement ranges often closer, and factions (IS and Clan) are all intermixed anyway.

I'm guessing CW is where this debuff could be felt the most. Longer ranges, and most importantly, Clan tech vs IS tech. If this debuff (along with the lifting of negative quirks on some clan mechs) shifts ranges and weapon strength more towards the Clans again, that is where it will be felt the most.

That's why myself as a PUGer, I'm more indifferent to it. Maybe if I was a serious CW player, this would be more cause for concern for me

[El Bandito]

I bought the Top Dog only for CW. Darn it. Guess I'll shelve it until PGI hits it with their buff darts. Jagermechs/5SS will have to do meanwhile.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 February 2016 - 08:00 AM.

[Chuck Jager]

The thunderbolts are fun to play. I still take out my ERPPC prom queen, even though she is a big girl now way past her prime. The same goes for my K-2, Jester and SHDs. I like the playstyle of these mechs even though I have higher performers.

I have an ALT IS account that was created just to follow the big units. When I got on TS for the House, they requested all aggressive push mechs with a minimum of snipers/lrms. We won probably 90% of the matches just throwing red doritos into their face, and the support players were given specific instructions on how to do their job (yes support). I really dislike the effect that OP safe damage has on the dynamics of the game. Every time I see any mech at 90+% health more than 1sq away from the main engagement, I hear an Urbie being recycled into a Prius.

[CK16]

So many IS tears over this...

I find it funny that they felt it was perfectly fine that some IS chassis could out range clan ER Large Laser....that should never ever happen....I am not going to go Clan should be supper buffed and trump IS but IS specially in lasers range shouldn't have an edge over clans. The burn time as well so pretty annoying from my perspective. I stand by the point that before last patch, IS META builds > Clan META builds by far, now it's a little better, in general yes, Clan is better in an overall sense, but things are very different in the Meta game between the two and the power switches from Clan to IS.

Edited by CK16, 17 February 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

CK16, on 17 February 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

...

I find it funny that they felt it was perfectly fine that some IS chassis could out range clan ER Large Laser....that should never ever happen....

I'm curious, why do you feel that it should NEVER happen that an IS should NEVER outrange a Clan ERLL?

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I am not going to go Clan should be supper buffed and trump IS but IS specially in lasers range shouldn't have an edge over clans.

Why?

[CK16]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 09:29 AM, said:

I'm curious, why do you feel that it should NEVER happen that an IS should NEVER outrange a Clan ERLL?

Why?

Cause that is part of what makes clan lasers unique and better then the IS, as this is how they were designed to be in all battletech in history of the franchise? They are not suppose to be the same. Tell me how it is balanced with some of the old quirked mechs that could Now out range clan ER Large Lasers, but now have quite shorter burn times and heat rating? If IS wants our range then they should get negative quirks to make it ok I can reach out, however beam time is now longer then basic IS and I have worse heat rating.

It is like the Clan UAC's, they are clan designs meant to be more advanced then IS tech. I get it there needs to be balance ( thus the Clan ER's longer burn times, and UAC burst damage vs single shot damage.). Is lasers shouldn't be junk, and they are not for stayed reasons of short burn time and better heat ratings. While clans have range and damage but trading for more heat generation, and usually not as pinpoint damage due to longer time to keep fire concentrated us more likely to spread damage.

Atleast till after Revival IS tech lacked in many ways to Clan, quiaff?

Edited by CK16, 17 February 2016 - 09:42 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

CK16, on 17 February 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

Cause that is part of what makes clan lasers unique and better then the IS, as this is how they were designed to be in all battletech in history of the franchise? They are not suppose to be the same. Tell me how it is balanced with some of the old quirked mechs that could Now out range clan ER Large Lasers, but now have quite shorter burn times and heat rating?

You are of course COMPLETELY ignoring the following benefits of Clan lasers:

1. Most of them are lighter than the IS equivalent.
2. Most of them are SMALLER than the IS equivalent.
3. As far as I can remember in my much hungover state, ALL Clan weapons do MORE DAMAGE than the IS equivalent.

So allowing a FEW IS 'mechs to have longer range, PLUS, a shorter burn time, doesn't seem to be all that much of an issue, ESPECIALLY considering that items 1+2+3, allow Clan builds to have LARGER more POWERFUL alpha's than most IS 'mechs of equivalent weight class.

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It is like the Clan UAC's, they are clan designs meant to be more advanced then IS tech. I get it there needs to be balance ( thus the Clan ER's longer burn times, and UAC burst damage vs single shot damage.).

Ballistics are different, though, if you've ever been at the receiving end of a bullet hose, you know that the spread ballistics of Clan AC's isn't completely without benefit.

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Atleast till after Revival IS tech lacked in many ways to Clan, quiaff?

So, your position is mostly based on the Lore of BattleTech then?

[CK16]

Dimento Graven, on 17 February 2016 - 09:42 AM, said:

You are of course COMPLETELY ignoring the following benefits of Clan lasers:

1. Most of them are lighter than the IS equivalent.
2. Most of them are SMALLER than the IS equivalent.
3. As far as I can remember in my much hungover state, ALL Clan weapons do MORE DAMAGE than the IS equivalent.

So allowing a FEW IS 'mechs to have longer range, PLUS, a shorter burn time, doesn't seem to be all that much of an issue, ESPECIALLY considering that items 1+2+3, allow Clan builds to have LARGER more POWERFUL alpha's than most IS 'mechs of equivalent weight class.

Ballistics are different, though, if you've ever been at the receiving end of a bullet hose, you know that the spread ballistics of Clan AC's isn't completely without benefit.

So, your position is mostly based on the Lore of BattleTech then?

If they want a quirked mech that they want to out range Clans then it should atleast have some of the draw backs,either longer burn time, instead of the blink of an eye pin point damage. Or that that chassis should have neg quirks that make it so alpha img such IS ER Large Lasers is incredibly heat inefficient. Meaning that each beam might be pin point but each one has atleast a chance to hit different parts of the enemy mech.

I know being on the opposite end of Daka sucks, both sides can rip apart the other, doesn't mean I can't atleast dream of a double tapped UAC 20 for 40damage . But just saying each side had its strengths and.weaknesss, when they quirk the other to negate a weakness completely it will make that chassis far superior to its others in the faction and in some cases make them far superior to its opponent that now has weakness that are your strengths (your IS bur time and heat) while now only able to barely have range on you if at all.

[Dimento Graven]

CK16, on 17 February 2016 - 09:50 AM, said:

If they want a quirked mech that they want to out range Clans then it should atleast have some of the draw backs,either longer burn time, instead of the blink of an eye pin point damage. Or that that chassis should have neg quirks that make it so alpha img such IS ER Large Lasers is incredibly heat inefficient. Meaning that each beam might be pin point but each one has atleast a chance to hit different parts of the enemy mech.

Why? In the particular case we are talking about it was few IS chassis that had ONE... >>>ONE<<< weapon system that could out distance the clan equivalent. All other Clan weapons on those chassis STILL out distanced, and had higher damage, and were lighter, and were smaller than the IS equivalent.

So the inherit 'draw back' of being limited to a SINGLE longer range weapon system wasn't enough? I mean, all a Clanner had to do was use their XL based speed and agility to close into range, and suddenly the long range benefit of that ONE weapon system was rendered meaningless, as the Clan brought his much larger alpha to bare.

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I know being on the opposite end of Daka sucks, both sides can rip apart the other, doesn't mean I can't atleast dream of a double tapped UAC 20 for 40damage . But just saying each side had its strengths and.weaknesss, when they quirk the other to negate a weakness completely it will make that chassis far superior to its others in the faction and in some cases make them far superior to its opponent that now has weakness that are your strengths (your IS bur time and heat) while now only able to barely have range on you if at all.

I disagree as to the extremity of the issue you seem to be inferring. Using phrases like '...negate a weakness completely...' and '...far superior...' seems to be verging on hyperbole.

Again, it's a Clan plan debate tactic to complain about THE ONE weapon system with longer range, even though it was for only a FEW chassis, and complain about the shorter burn time, all the while refusing to acknowledge the systemic affect of having the aforementioned weapons benefits (which pretty much exists for nearly every Clan weapon), plus the benefits of Clan XL, plus the benefits of free CASE in EVERY section, plus the option of TC (IS CC can't be loaded but in a few 'mechs and doesn't even do half of what Clan TC's do, ESPECIALLY after this last buff to the Clan TC), etc. etc. etc.

Somehow the IS having, what... 10 to 15 chassis that had ERLL ranges longer than Clans (even though EVERY OTHER Clan weapon had a range advantage, or fired at the same distance as the IS equivalent) broke the game...

It's a position I find unreasonable considering that even at extreme range, those IS weapons were doing MINIMAL damage, AND AGAIN, once the Clan pilot closed to a distance where his weapons were in range, his alpha is probably going to be half again that of the IS pilot, at a minimum.

In balancing there's supposed to be give and take on both sides. The Clans appear to have a lot of give they could survive to add balance.

Systemically, the Clans generally have faster and more survivable 'mechs with larger alphas than the IS typically can field.

Objectively it doesn't seem very balanced.

[Khobai]

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Again, it's a Clan plan debate tactic to complain about THE ONE weapon system with longer range, even though it was for only a FEW chassis

Those "few" chassis were absolutely prolific though. They were used every game in obscene quantities.

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and complain about the shorter burn time, all the while refusing to acknowledge the systemic affect of having the aforementioned weapons benefits (which pretty much exists for nearly every Clan weapon),

It was the combination of longer range AND shorter burn time that was the problem. Now that the longer range is removed the shorter burn time isnt an issue.

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plus the benefits of Clan XL,

CXL isnt as huge of an advantage anymore.
1) CXL was majorly nerfed with speed debuffs
2) IS mechs get hugeass structure quirks to help them use XL

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plus the benefits of free CASE in EVERY section

so our laser ammo doesnt explode? free case doesnt help when pretty much every clan build spams lasers.

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, plus the option of TC (IS CC can't be loaded but in a few 'mechs and doesn't even do half of what Clan TC's do, ESPECIALLY after this last buff to the Clan TC), etc. etc. etc.

Yet level 1 TC is still the only one thats used. The higher levels arnt worth the tonnage/crit cost.

But I agree IS CC needs a buff and I think most clan players would also agree.

Edited by Khobai, 17 February 2016 - 10:20 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Khobai, on 17 February 2016 - 10:15 AM, said:

Those "few" chassis were absolutely prolific though. They were used every game in obscene quantities.

They were meta, yes. No more prolific than the Clan's meta 'mechs.

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It was the combination of longer range AND shorter burn time that was the problem. Now that the longer range is removed the shorter burn time isnt an issue anymore.

Even though, again, once you got into range with your higher alphas, the ONLY advantage left was a shorter burn time?

Clans had the option to render ONE benefit useless, and overpower the other with larger alphas, and yet it was STILL being projected as somehow 'broken the game' by certain Clan zealots...

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CXL isnt as huge of an advantage anymore.
1) CXL was majorly nerfed with speed debuffs
2) IS mechs got hugeass structure quirks

EVERYONE received the Skills Based speed debuffs, not just the Clans. SOME IS 'mechs got CT/ST structure quirks, MOST did not (at least of the 'mechs I've looked at). Some (the Blackjack) got oversized structure quirks, that's been corrected as of this last patch. The Atlas needed SOMETHING as it was effectively a giant roll of toilette paper when it came to damage. It was a 100 ton 'mech that played like a very large and slow medium. SOMETHING needed to be done, and there's actually quite a few more IS 'mechs that could stand for some ST lovin'.

Beyond that though, an IS 'mech STILL not dare load an XL for any serious game play, because even with the CT/ST buffs, take out a single ST on an IS 'mech with an XL and it's game over for that pilot.

The primary benefits the Clans have received from their version of the XL are still there and can't be discounted.

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so our laser ammo doesnt explode? free case doesnt help when pretty much every clan build spams lasers.

Don't be intentionally ignorant, you know damn well the benefits of CASE and when it applies. You act as if no Clan 'mech EVER loads ANY ammo in ANY build AT ALL...

If an IS 'mech wants to try and 'match that, they can only put CASE in ST's (last I checked) and it cost them 1 ton of weight that could go to HS's/weapons/ammo/engine.

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Yet level 1 TC is still the only one thats used. The higher levels arnt worth the tonnage/crit cost.

Your opinion. If I had a component I could add that would increase my range, rate of fire, crit chances, along with all the other benefits, I'd probably utilize whatever spare weight I had to maxing it out. Again, PLUS, the fact that there is no "Level 1" command couch, you're stuck spending 3 tons, AND, again, ONLY CERTAIN 'MECHS are allowed to equip them, unlike the Clan TC, which as far as I can tell, ANY 'mech can load a TC, level 1 or beyond.

[Sandpit]

CK16, on 17 February 2016 - 09:24 AM, said:

So many IS tears over this...

I find it funny that they felt it was perfectly fine that some IS chassis could out range clan ER Large Laser...

I find it funny that clan ER medium lasers outrange IS large lasers.

If you're going to talk abotu "QQ" regarding range inadequacies then I would suggest you start there.

Still want to make this into a "IS QQ" argument regarding weapon ranges with your representing the IS side of the argument?

I can relate the entire history of the situation going all the way back to CB if you'd really like to discuss it, but I'm willing to bet you just figured you'd troll with your "QQ" comments and figure everyone would either ignore, take the bait, or jump on your bandwagon instead of offering to have an actual discussion on the situation.

Now your reply to this response will quickly dictate the direction of this conversation and we'll see if you're interested in discussing MWO balance or just another in a very long list of mediocre trolls trying to derail constructive threads. Let's see which one you are shall we?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Sandpit, on 17 February 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

I find it funny that clan ER medium lasers outrange IS large lasers.

No they don't, especially after the nerf to max range (405 vs 450). That said the cERML is still a good weapon, but not near the power level it used to be and I would still love to see the iLL normal range buffed (to at least 500m, at least).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 February 2016 - 10:55 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 February 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

No they don't, especially after the nerf to max range (405 vs 450). That said the cERML is still a good weapon, but not near the power level it used to be and I would still love to see the iLL normal range buffed (to at least 500m, at least).

Not willing to do the maths here so, bare with me as I ask the question:

What happens to the ERML range if a Clan TC1 is loaded on the 'mech?

(I am working and can't look up the stats on the TC1, so that's why I ask. I'm sure one of you will have this on hand/memorized and do the calcs in your head)

[meteorol]

Sandpit, on 17 February 2016 - 10:42 AM, said:

I find it funny that clan ER medium lasers outrange IS large lasers.

Me too.

Especially since they don't. ER ML is 405 optimal, 688max, IS LL is 450/900

[LookUpGaming]

I've got to take exception that the clan xl is no longer that much of an advantage.

IS XL side torso destruction is death. Knock out a clan side torso and they are slowed down a bit. But they can still fight. The IS guy is watching from someone else's cockpit.....

Pretty clear to me.

I'd give the clan apologists the point that some of the IS mech were overquirked. However the IS did need the range boost to remain competative.

And 'because lore' is a dumb argument. Jordan Wiesman himself said he wished he never made the clans as OP as they were.

I mean damn. 4 clan MEDIUM lasers are roughly equivalent to 3 IS Large lasers......

[Khobai]

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What happens to the ERML range if a Clan TC1 is loaded on the 'mech?

It gets 421m range instead of 405m range

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I find it funny that clan ER medium lasers outrange IS large lasers.

They dont. CERML max range got nerfed a while ago

CERML max range is x1.7 its optimum range. ISLL max range is still x2 its optimum range.

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4 clan MEDIUM lasers are roughly equivalent to 3 IS Large lasers......

IS Large Lasers suck though. Nobody uses them. Because for 1 extra heat you can get 50% more range from the IS ERLL. Do ISLL need a buff? probably.

When you compare CERML to a bad weapon that needs a buff... of course its not a favorable comparison.

Edited by Khobai, 17 February 2016 - 11:15 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

meteorol, on 17 February 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

Me too.

Especially since they don't. ER ML is 405 optimal, 688max, IS LL is 450/900

Again, looking at it systemically:

IS LL = 9 damage, 7 heat - DPH = 1.29 - HPS = 1.65
CERML = 7 damage, 6 heat - DPH = 1.17 - HPS = 1.45

One-for-one the IS LL does provide .12 damage more per heat generated, THOUGH, the heat generation of the Clan ERML is far more efficient, .20.

HOWEVER:

IS LL = 5 tons, 2 crits - DPT = .42
CERML = 1 tons, 1 crits - DPT = 1.69

One-for-one the Clan ERML far exceeds the IS damage potential.

Systemically, the CERML is a more efficient weapon, can be boated to much higher extremes and much more efficiently than the IS LL can. Heck the differences in ghost heat threshholds for ML's and LL's (the same for Clan and IS right? Can't remember, correct me if I'm wrong), make sure that a Clanner can almost always build a bigger more heat efficient alpha with ML's than an IS pilot can with LLs.

Again, just based off the objective interpretation of the raw base numbers.