105 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 February 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

Yay. Space magic quantum ammo storage FTW.

I'm sure Ammo Drops and Health Packs and Respawns will be along shortly, too.

We already have respawns...

In general, I don't think it's much worse than any other quirks in terms of "unrealism."

For example, why should a Summoner magically move faster with an XL350 than a different 70 ton mech with the same engine? Why should a Hunchback have different internal structure than any other 50 ton mech when all of them spend the same amount of tonnage on their structure (5% of maximum weight)? Why would the Medium Lasers on a Locust shoot further than the Medium Lasers on a Shadow Hawk? Etc.

All quirks are space magic. It's just a matter of accepting space magic in order to compensate mechs for being cursed by their innate design problems (many of which are ported straight from BT/TT).

Well, that, and the fact that space magic is necessary to make gigantic walking robots into viable combat machines to begin with. A mech like the Stalker probably wouldn't even be able to stand up in real life...

[Pjwned]

FupDup, on 27 February 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

We already have respawns...

In general, I don't think it's much worse than any other quirks in terms of "unrealism."

For example, why should a Summoner magically move faster with an XL350 than a different 70 ton mech with the same engine? Why should a Hunchback have different internal structure than any other 50 ton mech when all of them spend the same amount of tonnage on their structure (5% of maximum weight)? Why would the Medium Lasers on a Locust shoot further than the Medium Lasers on a Shadow Hawk? Etc.

All quirks are space magic. It's just a matter of accepting space magic in order to compensate mechs for being cursed by their innate design problems (many of which are ported straight from BT/TT).

Well, that, and the fact that space magic is necessary to make gigantic walking robots into viable combat machines to begin with. A mech like the Stalker probably wouldn't even be able to stand up in real life...

Most of those other quirks (which are, as per my usual position, still a sloppy mess) can be at least partially accepted by suspending disbelief, but ammo quirks is where it starts crossing the line.

[Andi Nagasia]

theta123, on 27 February 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

It clearly says that Engines & structure are hardwired and cannot be replaced without extensive re-design of a mech

But it also mentions, its theorethically possible

but if they are Sticking to Lore we should get Things that OmniMechs Do have,
Omni JJ Upgrade(The Upgrade Option That All OmniMechs should have)(Here),
Ambidextrous Arms/Torsos(which is Really How All OmniPods Really Work)(Here),
and Even Engine Type Changes(XL250 to STD250)(See SavageWolf TBR-Mk4),
Edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 27 February 2016 - 12:16 PM.

[Kmieciu]

Pjwned, on 27 February 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

Most of those other quirks (which are, as per my usual position, still a sloppy mess) can be at least partially accepted by suspending disbelief, but ammo quirks is where it starts crossing the line.

We already have heat generation quirks that give you free tonnage (they act like free heatsinks), structure quirks that turn 45 tonners into 60 tonners.
Ammo quirks are a elegant solution to double armor. Summoner or the Urbanmech are iconic for their use of ballistic weapons, yet they lack the tonnage for ammo.

[Trauglodyte]

The ammo quirk isn't really space magic when you consider that Caseless Ammunition is already in the Battletech game: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Caseless

Now, if you want to argue that all mechs should have that quirk available, I'll give that to you. But, there are some mechs that are simply coming up extremely short because PGI is trying to stick to the lore as much as possible. The Summoner, which I love dearly, is simply several tons short of being good because it has 5 tons dedicated to JJs that it can't remove. You can look at several IS mechs and realize that they, too, are getting the short end of the stick because of JJs *cough* SPIDER *cough cough*. The truth is that PGI has done a pretty piss poor job of balancing mechs within a weight class by screwing up the Jenner vs. Commando vs. Cicada back at release and they've done an even worse job of that since. If they can get this right here, MAYBE there is hope for helping other mechs later on.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 27 February 2016 - 12:51 PM.

[El Bandito]

Pjwned, on 27 February 2016 - 11:20 AM, said:

Most of those other quirks (which are, as per my usual position, still a sloppy mess) can be at least partially accepted by suspending disbelief, but ammo quirks is where it starts crossing the line.

Special light weight ammo, custom made for Summoner and Shadow Cat's ammo bin only. Done. Doesn't require any less belief than armor and structure bonus quirks.

[pbiggz]

FupDup, on 27 February 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

We already have respawns...

In general, I don't think it's much worse than any other quirks in terms of "unrealism."

For example, why should a Summoner magically move faster with an XL350 than a different 70 ton mech with the same engine? Why should a Hunchback have different internal structure than any other 50 ton mech when all of them spend the same amount of tonnage on their structure (5% of maximum weight)? Why would the Medium Lasers on a Locust shoot further than the Medium Lasers on a Shadow Hawk? Etc.

All quirks are space magic. It's just a matter of accepting space magic in order to compensate mechs for being cursed by their innate design problems (many of which are ported straight from BT/TT).

Well, that, and the fact that space magic is necessary to make gigantic walking robots into viable combat machines to begin with. A mech like the Stalker probably wouldn't even be able to stand up in real life...

More and more I begin to understand why Microsoft completely discarded Battletech build rules in mechwarrior 4. Im not saying what they did was even close to perfect, but I understand WHY they did it now.

[Zacharias McLeod]

Andi Nagasia, on 27 February 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

but if they are Sticking to Lore we should get Things that OmniMechs Do have,
Omni JJ Upgrade(The Upgrade Option That All OmniMechs should have)(Here),
Ambidextrous Arms/Torsos(which is Really How All OmniPods Really Work)(Here),
and Even Engine Type Changes(XL250 to STD250)(See SavageWolf TBR-Mk4),
Edit- Spelling

As the Clan Mechs arrived you could drop the jj but to many players cryed so PGI make them fix.

Switching pods from right to left side is not possible because in some Mechs the fixed slots will not match. See the Kit Fox. RT is 3 Endo and 2 FF, LT is 2 Endo and 2 FF.

And the Savage Wolf PR and PR-2 are not the real Savage Wolf. They are the prototypes. Created with other engines as the real Mech. No you can not switch from a normal Savage Wolf to the PR or PR-2.

Edited by Zacharias McLeod, 27 February 2016 - 01:13 PM.

[Triordinant]

You heard right. Russ said NO.

[Monkey Lover]

Every Summoner will now be getting one of these to reload the ammo.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 27 February 2016 - 01:24 PM.

[Wolfways]

theta123, on 27 February 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech

It clearly says that Engines & structure are hardwired and cannot be replaced without extensive re-design of a mech

But it also mentions, its theorethically possible

My point is why use lore as a reason to limit clan customization while completely ignoring lore for customizing IS mechs?

Also, ammo quirks?
Yes that's really going to help the MDD-Prime. When it has fired its few extra missiles it still won't be able to fire its LPL's without immediately getting ridiculously hot.

[Trauglodyte]

Mostly because IS mechs are still bound by the hard points. You can't mix and match like Clans can. If you take one of the original mechs and follow the customization from beginning all the way to beyond 3060, you see all manners of weird builds. That doesn't even take into account personal customized mechs or those changed up for Solaris.

[Wildstreak]

It is not Clan Mechs with locked Endo, it is OmniMechs.
If the IS had them, they would have locked Endo too.

[pbiggz]

Wildstreak, on 27 February 2016 - 02:44 PM, said:

It is not Clan Mechs with locked Endo, it is OmniMechs.
If the IS had them, they would have locked Endo too.

We know how omnimech rules work. We're not debating that. We're talking about how it screws some mechs.

[Wildstreak]

pbiggz, on 27 February 2016 - 02:47 PM, said:

We know how omnimech rules work. We're not debating that. We're talking about how it screws some mechs.

Opens instructions.

• Find thread with an argument.
  
• Back down gracefully.
  
• Proceed to respond to every further comment with this video.

[Trauglodyte]

If the "dog" mechs end up getting 2 tons of ammo for the price of 1, due to the addition of a caseless ammo quirk, that will help. But, when it comes to specific "dog" mechs, like the Summoner, I'm still not sure that is going to help. I can put 3 UAC2s or 2 UAC5s, currently, with sufficient ammo and 2 ER Md Lasers. But, to keep from getting screwed over with the jam mechanic, I need to run the Summoner-C left arm. I want to put, in the case of the UAC5s, both UACs in the right and left torsos by way of the D torso pods. In doing that, I've now committed 3 pod locations for 2 weapons and the weight that I have left over isn't going to be sufficient enough to create any level of energy punch. I can put two IS UAC5s on a 50 ton mech and run just fine and that is a mech 20 tons lighter than the Summoner. So, even with this quirk, I'm afraid that they're going to have to pump up the lethality of the existing quirks or simply just accept the fact that, in order for it to work, the Summoner is forever going to be a missile mech and that is just that.

Kind of sad, if you ask me.

[nehebkau]

pbiggz, on 27 February 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

The moment lore impedes gameplay is the moment it should be tossed aside. Entertaining gameplay is more important than one that slavishly follows rules set out in books written in the 1980s.

I have said this 1000 times -- and every time the TT fanboys come rushing in like Trump's hairstylists to defend the dice.

[Wolfways]

pbiggz, on 27 February 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

The moment lore impedes gameplay is the moment it should be tossed aside. Entertaining gameplay is more important than one that slavishly follows rules set out in books written in the 1980s.

If everyone is treated equal yes.
Currently it's throw out lore for IS and use lore for clans.

Look at the heat system, MWO is designed for customized IS mechs.
Stock IS mechs with SHS = Fully customizable to work within the heat system.
Stock clan mechs = Remove/reduce weapons to work within the heat system.
IS mechs = upgrade.
Clan mechs = downgrade.

Currently IS mechs can be run as "almost stock". I change anything but the weapons.
Clan mechs cannot be run as almost stock without running out of ammo really fast and not having enough DHS to use lasers.

Designing the game so that stock mechs (i.e. actual BT mechs) don't work is bad enough, but then designing it for one faction and punishing the other faction is ridiculous.

Clan mechs having the ability to change hardpoints is also a bad balance argument. What if the mech comes with the hardpoints you want as stock? Omni-pods give no advantage then.
It's like saying the IS mech you want to use doesn't have the right hardpoints that you want so being able to use a different IS mech is an advantage.

IF pgi feel the need to nerf clan mechs (even though I'd prefer asymmetrical balance I know that without it there is a need to nerf the clans) I wish they'd use another way instead of limiting customization.
I'm sick of nerfing teams in matches just because my mech doesn't work well because of pgi's heat system.

[Brandarr Gunnarson]

Yeah, this is somewhat hard to swallow and one of the major things about Quirks:

Using lore as an argument against something (like ES on the Summoner) at the expense of gameplay is ridiculous; especially so she the solution you turn to is equally not lore!!!

Quirks, in their current iteration, are no more lore than anything else. What's more, they aren't even the best non-lore solution. In fact they really don't provide more than the illusion of balance; take them away and stuff is still unbalanced at its core!

[dervishx5]

nehebkau, on 27 February 2016 - 03:09 PM, said:

I have said this 1000 times -- and every time the TT fanboys come rushing in like Trump's hairstylists to defend the dice.

Go make your own non-Battletech themed game.