1212 replies to this topic

[LT. HARDCASE]

ScarecrowES, on 28 February 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

No doubt. Other than for Lore purposes, I don't understand the want for the Viper. It should probably be in the game, as an an Invasion mech but... ugh... awful.

But the BLanner was the most popular omni suggested to Russ when he asked for what clan mech to release. The Kodiak ended up winning, but because it was a battlemech. The BLanner was vastly more popular than the Mad Cat mkII even. So if you're up for giving the people what they want... they want the BLanner - for better or worse.

I just don't get why people would be voting the Lanner so heavily. What can it do, outside of the one 6x ML 1x LPL build? Outside of that one 6E pod, everything else can be done on a Shadow Cat.

Just more proof that PGI should keep ignoring most of what comes from this site.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 February 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

You realize the Viper can run 9E as well? With 2 more tons on top, and JJs? The only advantage of the Phantoms is having ECM and being a tad faster, but that's about it, if I remember right it has 6.5 free tons after maxing armor, or maybe it was 5.5 tons.

It's 5.5.

However, since it comes with 2 hardwired DHS, that brings the "effective" pod space up to 7.5 tons since you'll be boating lasers anyways (which need the extra DHS). Still pretty low, though.

[LT. HARDCASE]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 February 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

You realize the Viper can run 9E as well? With 2 more tons on top, and JJs? The only advantage of the Phantoms is having ECM and being a tad faster, but that's about it, if I remember right it has 6.5 free tons after maxing armor, or maybe it was 5.5 tons.

What's the pod combination?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

LT. HARDCASE, on 28 February 2016 - 12:51 PM, said:

What's the pod combination?

Prime Right Arm
A Side Torsos
C Left Arm and CT

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 28 February 2016 - 12:53 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

LT. HARDCASE, on 28 February 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

I just don't get why people would be voting the Lanner so heavily. What can it do, outside of the one 6x ML 1x LPL build? Outside of that one 6E pod, everything else can be done on a Shadow Cat.

Just more proof that PGI should keep ignoring most of what comes from this site.

Well, ultimately I think you've answered your own question. It runs faster than the Shadow Cat but boats lasers better, and gets to keep ECM. Now, imagine under the current meta, being able to streak out into a fight at 150kph, unleash a full spread of laser vomit that would make the Hellbringer jealous, and dart back into cover. What's not to like?

[1453 R]

ScarecrowES, on 27 February 2016 - 11:51 PM, said:

Many players have a high amount of aversion to "over-engined" mechs... that is, mechs with relatively lower pod space to gross tonnage ratios due to (most often) larger-than-necessary engines or sub-optimal equipment setups (no endo, undesirable fixed equipment, etc).

The Black Lanner fits into this category of mechs. It trades away weapons for engine, which many players hate. Same argument against the Linebacker. Otherwise, both mechs fit well into the current meta and are capable of mounting solid builds RELATIVE TO THEIR POD SPACE. That last part I wanted to emphasize, because I think it's important. There's often much focus on just how much pod space you get for a given tonnage of mech... "this 65 ton mech gets as much tonnage space as another 55 ton mech, so it's not as good." Very little attention is paid to what you can do with that tonnage, which is vastly more important. Often excluded from the realization that you've got a larger mech sporting the pod space of a lighter one is that you're often sporting the speed and manueverability of the lighter one too, while retaining the structure and armor of the heavier mech. We often compare chassis directly across a weight class, rather than looking at the specific design and utility of the mech as it is.

Now, if you look at the Lanner, other than the fact that it's a fast medium with decent-to-good hardpoint configs, it actually looks pretty good. You have to look at the better designs for the mech than the goofy chicken shown as the default pic on Sarna. It gets a good spread of hardpoints, nearly all of which at cockpit level or above, which is awesome. But yeah, thinking of this as an up-armored light, rather than a super-fast medium helps you understand its niche... same as thinking of the Linebacker as an up-armored medium rather than a super fast heavy.

This is actually a really good point. While 'over-engined' 'Mechs might be a problem in Commodity Warfare (I don't know, I don't play the mode), it depends more on the pilot and their preferences than the base 'Mech itself. The Linebacker's an excellent example - a lot of people go "This 65-ton 'Mech gets 17.5 tons of pod space? HELL NAH! the Stormcrow gets ~23 at the same speed!"

Yeah it does - it also has ten less tons of armor and structure. Now, a Stormcrow's unique geometry helps offset that, but the Linebacker's C configuration by itself comes with 6E/3B, while the D comes with 3E/4M. Both configurations allow for a hefty mix of weaponry that lets the Linebacker maximize its firepower to weight ratio - the 4M especially allows the 'Mech to be a ~105kph SRM hunter-killer. Or it can laservomit alongside everything else, with an extra ~15 klicks over the Timber Wolf and ten extra tons' durability over the Stormcrow.

The Black Lanner's in the same boat - two of its configurations offers 6E, with the D especially offer 6E/4B/2M, so you can put ALL the friggin' guns on it. That's what you look for in these 'over-engined' 'Mechs - not raw pod space, but whether or not the 'Mech has the ability to compensate for a lack of room for heavy weaponry with the sheer hardpoint count it needs to mount large numbers of smaller guns. That's the reason the Viper beats the hell out of the Coyotl - the Coyotl doesn't have the hardpoints it needs to take advantage of the extra podspace it gets over the Viper. The Lanner and Linebacker would need to get the correct variants introduced in order to really shine - the Linebacker would be significantly less threatening without access to the C or D variant pods, while the Black Lanner pretty much flat requires either the C or D variants (again) to hold up. if either 'Mech get those variants, though?

They would both fit well as predators, utilizing their unusually high mobility to pressure flanks and pick off weakened threats. Neither of them are firing-line 'Mechs, but down in Puglandia you don't get a lot of firing lines anyways. Being able to pick your engagements is never a bad thing. And frankly? It's nice to have options on all points along the scale. The folks who want to reduce their engines as much as possible so that can fit a seventh Gauss rifle on their 'Mech can pine for the Night Gyr, while Redline racers looking to be wherever their opponents least want them to be can hold out for things like the Viper, Lanner, or Linebacker.

All of which promise to be quite visually interesting as well, once Alex gets done with them.

[Summon3r]

Super Nova

[Armorine]

am i the only one hoping for the cougar?

posted earlier about this....for some reason it didnt post. oh well

Edited by Armorine, 28 February 2016 - 03:45 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

Tsunami would be great but doesn't look to have enough variants.

Also the Dark Crow would work as well.

Both medium clan mechs.

[ScarecrowES]

1453 R, on 28 February 2016 - 03:16 PM, said:

This is actually a really good point. While 'over-engined' 'Mechs might be a problem in Commodity Warfare (I don't know, I don't play the mode), it depends more on the pilot and their preferences than the base 'Mech itself. The Linebacker's an excellent example - a lot of people go "This 65-ton 'Mech gets 17.5 tons of pod space? HELL NAH! the Stormcrow gets ~23 at the same speed!"

Yeah it does - it also has ten less tons of armor and structure. Now, a Stormcrow's unique geometry helps offset that, but the Linebacker's C configuration by itself comes with 6E/3B, while the D comes with 3E/4M. Both configurations allow for a hefty mix of weaponry that lets the Linebacker maximize its firepower to weight ratio - the 4M especially allows the 'Mech to be a ~105kph SRM hunter-killer. Or it can laservomit alongside everything else, with an extra ~15 klicks over the Timber Wolf and ten extra tons' durability over the Stormcrow.

Interestingly.. if you look at how the Linebacker would have to be implemented with the new volumetric scaling, it would end up being the most compact 65-ton mech we have in the game, and certainly the shortest. Even the original artwork scaling from the source books puts the Linebacker at a shorter height than the short-by-design Ebon Jaguar - volumetrically this would hold true in MWO. This would guarantee a smaller front torso profile than the lighter Stormcrow. And as you say, it gets the extra armor and structure that comes from being 10 tons heavier, but at the same speed.

Remember that, in CW as well as the base game, the Stormcrow has always been a top tier mech, for its combination of speed, hardpoints, and layout. Essentially making a mech with the same speed, better hardpoints (all the Linebacker torso points are at cockpit level or above), and a bunch more armor and structure... this has the ability to subplant the Stormcrow in the same roles it traditionally fills. And in modern CW, you could take 4 of them. I'm more inclined to call it "line-smasher" than linebacker.

Think about that. Super speed, heavy class armor, extremely compact, small frontal and rear hitboxes... plenty of opportunity for meta builds.

[1453 R]

ScarecrowES, on 28 February 2016 - 04:07 PM, said:

Interestingly.. if you look at how the Linebacker would have to be implemented with the new volumetric scaling, it would end up being the most compact 65-ton mech we have in the game, and certainly the shortest. Even the original artwork scaling from the source books puts the Linebacker at a shorter height than the short-by-design Ebon Jaguar - volumetrically this would hold true in MWO. This would guarantee a smaller front torso profile than the lighter Stormcrow. And as you say, it gets the extra armor and structure that comes from being 10 tons heavier, but at the same speed.

Remember that, in CW as well as the base game, the Stormcrow has always been a top tier mech, for its combination of speed, hardpoints, and layout. Essentially making a mech with the same speed, better hardpoints (all the Linebacker torso points are at cockpit level or above), and a bunch more armor and structure... this has the ability to subplant the Stormcrow in the same roles it traditionally fills. And in modern CW, you could take 4 of them. I'm more inclined to call it "line-smasher" than linebacker.

Think about that. Super speed, heavy class armor, extremely compact, small frontal and rear hitboxes... plenty of opportunity for meta builds.

The Stormcrow can carry more firepower, but the Linebacker also has four extra DHS fixed to the chassis. Most Stormcrow builds I know of try to get at least that many extra heat sinks onto the machine, and the difference between ~19 tons of equipment on a +4DHS Stormcrow and the 17.5 on the Linebacker is a lot less glaring. And yeah - the Linebacker's art has always depicted it as very dense and compactly built. A big block of metal, low and narrow - and we all know how favorable the Cauldron-Born's general geometry is. Imagine a 3E/4M Cauldron-Born with tighter geo and no glass-jaw CT - that could turn out to be a really nasty high-speed strike-brawler, if it gets the right lovin' from the modelers.

EDIT: Would someone please link me to wherever Solaris7 went? Want to check hardpoint locations on the Linebacker and Lanner, but all I can find are foreign-language sites that don't seem to work

Edited by 1453 R, 28 February 2016 - 04:28 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

1453 R, on 28 February 2016 - 04:23 PM, said:

The Stormcrow can carry more firepower, but the Linebacker also has four extra DHS fixed to the chassis. Most Stormcrow builds I know of try to get at least that many extra heat sinks onto the machine, and the difference between ~19 tons of equipment on a +4DHS Stormcrow and the 17.5 on the Linebacker is a lot less glaring. And yeah - the Linebacker's art has always depicted it as very dense and compactly built. A big block of metal, low and narrow - and we all know how favorable the Cauldron-Born's general geometry is. Imagine a 3E/4M Cauldron-Born with tighter geo and no glass-jaw CT - that could turn out to be a really nasty high-speed strike-brawler, if it gets the right lovin' from the modelers.

EDIT: Would someone please link me to wherever Solaris7 went? Want to check hardpoint locations on the Linebacker and Lanner, but all I can find are foreign-language sites that don't seem to work

Now you're getting it. There's more to a mech than just pod space.

[1453 R]

I started this game in Dragons, man. Bring on the Linebackers

[LT. HARDCASE]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 28 February 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

Prime Right Arm
A Side Torsos
C Left Arm and CT

Gotcha.

ScarecrowES, on 28 February 2016 - 12:56 PM, said:

Well, ultimately I think you've answered your own question. It runs faster than the Shadow Cat but boats lasers better, and gets to keep ECM. Now, imagine under the current meta, being able to streak out into a fight at 150kph, unleash a full spread of laser vomit that would make the Hellbringer jealous, and dart back into cover. What's not to like?

The fact that, that one arm is almost its only usable omnipod. Seems like a mech that'd get boring really fast.

I guess that's why I'm so big on the Huntsman. Of all the remaining medium Omnis, it's the only one with huge pod diversity and high enough pod space to take advantage of it, build and play.

Look at this pod breakdown:

P = LA - 2E, RA - 1B, LT - 2E, RT - 1M
A = LA - 1E, 1M, RA - 1E, 1B
B = LA - 1B, RA - 3E, RT - 2B
C = LA - 1B, RA - 1M, LT - 2E, 1M, RT - 1E, 1M
D = LA - 1B, RA - 1M, RT - 3E

Missile boat, 10 hardpoint laser vomit, ballistics + lasers, lasers + missiles, it can do it all.

Edited by LT. HARDCASE, 28 February 2016 - 05:17 PM.

[1453 R]

LT. HARDCASE, on 28 February 2016 - 05:16 PM, said:

Gotcha.


The fact that, that one arm is almost its only usable omnipod. Seems like a mech that'd get boring really fast.

I guess that's why I'm so big on the Huntsman. Of all the remaining medium Omnis, it's the only one with huge pod diversity and high enough pod space to take advantage of it, build and play.

Look at this pod breakdown:

P = LA - 2E, RA - 1B, LT - 2E, RT - 1M
A = LA - 1E, 1M, RA - 1E, 1B
B = LA - 1B, RA - 3E, RT - 2B
C = LA - 1B, RA - 1M, LT - 2E, 1M, RT - 1E, 1M
D = LA - 1B, RA - 1M, RT - 3E

Missile boat, 10 hardpoint laser vomit, ballistics + lasers, lasers + missiles, it can do it all.

The other thing to consider, though, is whether or not any of those builds the Huntsman can do are things that the other mediums Omnis can't. Certainly the Huntsman has more options available to it than something like a Phantom or Lanner would...but are any of those options things the Stormcrow can't do? Or the Nova?

The Black Lanner's best/meta can carry 6E and that's about it...but then go 120kph with M.A.S.C. sprint mode with those 6E, which is something the Stormcrow cannot do. The Ferret can come close, but it's also shaped incredibly badly and tends to lose its arms at a stiff word from enemies. The Viper is similar - it can carry a mixed mass energy/MG build that goes 140kph and jumps better than everything else in the game. The Phantom carries a stupendous number of energy hardpoints and ECM, while also bettering the top speeds of most light 'Mechs.

All of those 'Mechs have one, maybe two 'good' builds...but those good builds are things that don't quite exist in the game yet. The Huntsman has a broad offering of good builds available to it which other 'Mechs in the game have been doing for a while.

Kind of up to your interpretation which of those two options actually adds more to MWO...but I know which option I favor. Don't get me wrong, the Huntsman is cool and I'd probably pilot it with a smile - but I'm not sure it's the right play.

[Imperius]

Armorine, on 28 February 2016 - 03:44 PM, said:

am i the only one hoping for the cougar?

posted earlier about this....for some reason it didnt post. oh well

No you're not, after getting my favorite mech in my next goal was to get all the Mechassault 2 mechs in the game so I could do Mechassault community drops on this game.

[Metus regem]

1453 R, on 28 February 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

I started this game in Dragons, man. Bring on the Linebackers

I now have a bit more respect for you 1453, I did the same thing.

[Pariah Devalis]

1453 R, on 28 February 2016 - 07:02 PM, said:

The other thing to consider, though, is whether or not any of those builds the Huntsman can do are things that the other mediums Omnis can't. Certainly the Huntsman has more options available to it than something like a Phantom or Lanner would...but are any of those options things the Stormcrow can't do? Or the Nova?

The Black Lanner's best/meta can carry 6E and that's about it...but then go 120kph with M.A.S.C. sprint mode with those 6E, which is something the Stormcrow cannot do. The Ferret can come close, but it's also shaped incredibly badly and tends to lose its arms at a stiff word from enemies. The Viper is similar - it can carry a mixed mass energy/MG build that goes 140kph and jumps better than everything else in the game. The Phantom carries a stupendous number of energy hardpoints and ECM, while also bettering the top speeds of most light 'Mechs.

All of those 'Mechs have one, maybe two 'good' builds...but those good builds are things that don't quite exist in the game yet. The Huntsman has a broad offering of good builds available to it which other 'Mechs in the game have been doing for a while.

Kind of up to your interpretation which of those two options actually adds more to MWO...but I know which option I favor. Don't get me wrong, the Huntsman is cool and I'd probably pilot it with a smile - but I'm not sure it's the right play.

It's about more than filling a new niche, in this case. Especially with the new 4v4 scouting mode in CW, which will no doubt have a far lower maximum tonnage limit, we need a good range of options in the medium bracket that just currently does not exist. Being able to sacrifice 5 tons on a couple mechs is huge. Save yourself 5 tons on two mechs and suddenly you can afford another medium as opposed to a light.

It also means that, if you wanted to break the mold with the current 4x 65 tonner or 3x 75 + 1x 30-35 tonner setup, you have more viable tonnage options available in larger scale CW. Right now, if I want to take an Executioner, for example, that means I need to free up tonnage somewhere on the low end of the tonnage range - let alone when the Kodiak comes out. However, I don't want to take a mech that, if push comes to shove and things wind up being close, I'm left flapping in the breeze with. I want a viable choice at every given weight point.

Note that, by viable choice, I don't mean "equal or better than all the mechs in its weight class." I mean I want a 40 ton mech that is a respectable, viable platform when compared to other 40 ton mechs. Ditto with the 45, 50, and 55 ton points. Like tonnage compared with like tonnage.

Right now, in the mediums, we have no 40-ton option at all, let alone a viable choice. The 45 ton platforms are either incredibly niche (ERLLas Shadow Cat poke platform), or still has a ton of public stigma levied against it that may or may not be deserved (IFR SRM-brawlers and ERMLas platforms). In the 50 ton point, we have the NVA which is oh so close to being an OK choice (the resize should hopefully do it) and the Hunchback IIC which hits like a truck but is an extreme glass cannon. Then we have the 55 ton Stormcrow which seems to have all the firepower, all the speed, and all the durability in one package to the degree that it almost obsoletes all other mediums in the game.

With the Hunchback IIC, I guess we have a solid 50 ton choice, and we for sure have a viable 55 ton choice. We still need a viable 40 ton choice, and we could have, hands down, a downright good 45 ton option if PGI just gave the SHC 2 more E hardpoints - but they don't want to.

So, it seems to me, priority wise, we need a good 40 ton mech like the Pouncer. After that, I would personally like to see the Huntsman, since it brings a level of customization and weapon flexibility only offered by the Stormcrow in a 5 ton lighter package, at the expense of speed and armor - and I for one would love to see something outright challenge the Stormcrow in the Clan dropdeck for medium choices. (As an aside, it is hilarious to me that two feuding Clans, Nova Cat and Smoke Jaguar, have two feuding medium mechs, Huntsman and Stormcrow respectively.)

After that, any other Clan medium can be socketed in there in any order, and I honestly wouldn't bat an eye.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 29 February 2016 - 07:05 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 February 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

Then we have the 55 ton Stormcrow which seems to have all the firepower, all the speed, and all the durability in one package to the degree that it almost obsoletes all other mediums in the game.

Don't get me wrong, the SCrow is a great mech, but I wouldn't say it obsoletes other mediums. The SCat is better at ERLL and LPL poking, the Nova is better at PPFLD with PPCs, the Nova also has a slight edge with SPL/ERSL boats, the HBK-IIC can run dakka and ballistics. That leaves around 3 roles left for it, and 2 of them involve missiles, the last one involves mid-range laser vomit of some combination.

Pariah Devalis, on 29 February 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

So, it seems to me, priority wise, we need a good 40 ton mech like the Pouncer.

This is probably true, because it is all the Adder is missing is JJs. That said, I would still rather see the Viper because I'm a fan of the Viper because of its role in TT (8/12/8 with 4 ERML and TComp is something to be afraid of).

Pariah Devalis, on 29 February 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

After that, I would personally like to see the Huntsman

To me, the Huntsman really doesn't do much the HBK-IIC can't already do in a pinch outside of mixing laser and ballistics more effectively, which isn't a big deal imo. If it were a medium wave? Yes, I would take it in a heart beat, but if it we are only allowed one? Naw, the HBK-IIC already does most of its notable roles.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 29 February 2016 - 07:34 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 29 February 2016 - 07:30 AM, said:

...
To me, the Huntsman really doesn't do much the HBK-IIC can't already do in a pinch outside of mixing laser and ballistics more effectively, which isn't a big deal imo. If it were a medium wave? Yes, I would take it in a heart beat, but if it we are only allowed one? Naw, the HBK-IIC already does most of its notable roles.

Hmm.... good point. I forgot about the HBK-IIC.

Black Lanner it is then....

Edited by Hit the Deck, 29 February 2016 - 07:41 AM.