1212 replies to this topic

[martian]

FupDup, on 17 March 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

I tried to theorycraft build with the Deimos in SSW, but I ended up constantly running out of slots before tonnage. It's even more extreme than the Masakari itself, which says a lot...

Well, the quick look shows a similar number of energy and missile hardpoints and definitely more ballistic hardpoints. Plus, Deimos offers Jump Jets and Clan ECM. Isn't it what some fans wanted? Masakari with Jump Jets and/or more ballistic weapons? And ECM?

But don't get me wrong, I don't think that it's probable that Deimos will make its way in MWO, at least not any time soon.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

martian, on 17 March 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

Masakari with Jump Jets and/or more ballistic weapons? And ECM?

It is only a Masakari with all the extra stuff if it can do it without relying on MASC. The Deimos is more like a smaller Dire Wolf with MASC as an added bonus.

[martian]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

It is only a Masakari with all the extra stuff if it can do it without relying on MASC. The Deimos is more like a smaller Dire Wolf with MASC as an added bonus.

Well, then in the form of Deimos they would get Daishi that is 15 tons lighter (for CW) and with many hardpoints in or near the cockpit level or above it (depending on the MWO model).

Edited by martian, 17 March 2016 - 01:44 PM.

[Windscape]

well this thread sure boomed

updadting my previous list (back in the 4th page )

Light: 1, Firemoth, (embrace derpiness) 2, Piranha (12mgs sounds really fun) 3, Locust IIC ( i like locusts)

medium: 1, Coyotl (cant find anything better )

heavy: 1, Rifleman IIC (i want to have a clan rifleman. Jager and Rifleman are some of my favorite mechs)

Assault: 1, Turkina (mainly putting this in for my father, because the only assault he drives is the direwolf) 2. Kingfisher (we need a cheap clan assault with ECM ( i knw it has low podspace but still)) 3 Blood Kite (another strong battlemech thats also affordable

[Tertius]

Windscape, on 17 March 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

Light: 1, Firemoth, (embrace derpiness) 2, Piranha (12mgs sounds really fun) 3, Locust IIC ( i like locusts)

The Piranha would be totally awesome :-) I really like the design and as a light pilot from deep within my heart i would love to see that happen (and also a Locist IIC).

[CK16]

The only issue with that list Windscape is that they won't mix Omnimechs (current wave themes), IIC's, or Battlemechs. If you want the IIc's you would need a full 4 mechs one from each weight class same as Battlemechs though it looks like Clan Battlemechs will be sold as singles like the Kodiak.

[Windscape]

eh i didnt really care whether they were ominmechs, IICs, or clan battlemechs. I just picked what looked fun

but if i were going to make my list so that it is only one weight class, i would, but there arent that many clan battemechs or any more good clan omnimechs that are heavy and medium that havent been added.

a IIC from each weight class shouldn't be as big as a problem tho

[Gas Guzzler]

Windscape, on 17 March 2016 - 01:58 PM, said:

eh i didnt really care whether they were ominmechs, IICs, or clan battlemechs. I just picked what looked fun

but if i were going to make my list so that it is only one weight class, i would, but there arent that many clan battemechs or any more good clan omnimechs that are heavy and medium that havent been added.

Night Gyr/Nova Cat would both be awesome heavy omnimechs to add! I would prefer the Night Gyr though.

Viper/Huntsman/Black Lanner seem like some mediums that would be not bad, we at least need that 40 tonner though.

[Pariah Devalis]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 March 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

Night Gyr/Nova Cat would both be awesome heavy omnimechs to add! I would prefer the Night Gyr though.

Viper/Huntsman/Black Lanner seem like some mediums that would be not bad, we at least need that 40 tonner though.

I don't think one can ever associate the Black Lanner with the concept "would be not bad." It's so bad, I'd prefer a Phantom over it.

[Gas Guzzler]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 March 2016 - 02:16 PM, said:

I don't think one can ever associate the Black Lanner with the concept "would be not bad." It's so bad, I'd prefer a Phantom over it.

Ughhhh do I have to thumb through 54 pages of this thread to remind myself why its bad again?


Btw.... how many drinks per page for a thread like this? Its almost like people want more mechs.

[Metus regem]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 March 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

Night Gyr/Nova Cat would both be awesome heavy omnimechs to add! I would prefer the Night Gyr though.

Viper/Huntsman/Black Lanner seem like some mediums that would be not bad, we at least need that 40 tonner though.

The Black Lanner suffers from too large an engine, and too little pod space, 11t fully armoured for pod space, yes its fast, yes it can have a lot of hard points, but no tonnage to fill them with. This is made even worse when compared to the Huntsmen (5t lighter) with 24t of pod space, or even the Pouncer and Coyotl, both 40t mechs, with more pod space than the Black Lanner.

[Imperius]

Windscape, on 17 March 2016 - 01:44 PM, said:

well this thread sure boomed

updadting my previous list (back in the 4th page )

Light: 1, Firemoth, (embrace derpiness) 2, Piranha (12mgs sounds really fun) 3, Locust IIC ( i like locusts)

medium: 1, Coyotl (cant find anything better )

heavy: 1, Rifleman IIC (i want to have a clan rifleman. Jager and Rifleman are some of my favorite mechs)

Assault: 1, Turkina (mainly putting this in for my father, because the only assault he drives is the direwolf) 2. Kingfisher (we need a cheap clan assault with ECM ( i knw it has low podspace but still)) 3 Blood Kite (another strong battlemech thats also affordable

Any time I post a certain mech the thread is sure to always "boom"

Edited by Imperius, 17 March 2016 - 02:19 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Metus regem, on 17 March 2016 - 02:19 PM, said:

This is made even worse when compared to the Huntsmen (5t lighter) with 24t of pod space, or even the Pouncer and Coyotl, both 40t mechs, with more pod space than the Black Lanner.

You can't strictly compare pod space, after all the Adder has the most pod space of the lights, and look how well its doing. That said, the harshest comparison is the Coyotl vs Black Lanner since they have the same run speed (without MASC) and the Coyotl has 4 tons over the Black Lanner iirc.

Still, it would probably be better than the Ice Ferret on release simply because it can run 6 ERML asym with ECM and go near as fast (and faster with MASC) with 55 tonner armor.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 March 2016 - 02:24 PM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

You can't strictly compare pod space, after all the Adder has the most pod space of the lights, and look how well its doing. That said, the harshest comparison is the Coyotl vs Black Lanner since they have the same run speed (without MASC) and the Coyotl has 4 tons over the Black Lanner iirc.

Still, it would probably be better than the Ice Ferret on release simply because it can run 6 ERML asym with ECM and go near as fast (and faster with MASC) with 55 tonner armor.

Worse hitboxes than the Ferret since it isn't humanoid, and the IFR has 100% "fast" uptime. I mean, it's a close comparison, but only because the Lanner has a 55 ton mech's amount of armor and ECM. Mechs like the Pouncer have 14 tons corrected podspace and up to 11 E, plus jump jets, at 15 tons lighter. Or the Viper, which can jump and also go asymmetric if you so wanted, with similar podspace to the Lanner. Black Lanner is simply too tonnage limited for its weight. I mean, hell, if it was a 40 ton mech with 11 tons of pod space, at least the argument "it's a 40 ton mech" could be used, but looking at the much lighter competitors.... It's a sad, sad state of affairs.

[Gas Guzzler]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 March 2016 - 02:23 PM, said:

You can't strictly compare pod space, after all the Adder has the most pod space of the lights, and look how well its doing. That said, the harshest comparison is the Coyotl vs Black Lanner since they have the same run speed (without MASC) and the Coyotl has 4 tons over the Black Lanner iirc.

Still, it would probably be better than the Ice Ferret on release simply because it can run 6 ERML asym with ECM and go near as fast (and faster with MASC) with 55 tonner armor.

Yeah.. so 122 with speed tweak, 147 with MASC, that's pretty cool... weapons are limited though, either 6 ERML or load up on some SRMs. Think you can do 3 SRM6s with Artemis.. The only issue is you can do that on a Jenner IIC

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 March 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

Worse hitboxes than the Ferret since it isn't humanoid

It is somewhat debatable as its arms are in line with the torso (meaning they can still block) and the torso is narrow enough that it might not be bad. Legs extend fairly far though.

Pariah Devalis, on 17 March 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

and the IFR has 100% "fast" uptime.

Not as much of an advantage considering the power of MASC currently.

Pariah Devalis, on 17 March 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

Mechs like the Pouncer have 14 tons corrected podspace and up to 11 E, plus jump jets, at 15 tons lighter.

It also goes the same speed as an Adder for 5 tons more, which isn't really an improvement, it is a bad comparison since they don't go similar enough speeds. Like I said, the Coyotl comparison is the best comparison, and makes the BLanner look bad.

Pariah Devalis, on 17 March 2016 - 02:28 PM, said:

Or the Viper, which can jump and also go asymmetric if you so wanted, with similar podspace to the Lanner. Black Lanner is simply too tonnage limited for its weight. I mean, hell, if it was a 40 ton mech with 11 tons of pod space, at least the argument "it's a 40 ton mech" could be used, but looking at the much lighter competitors.... It's a sad, sad state of affairs.

It certainly isn't great, but just like the Viper, it is still better than the Ferret (pre-quirks). I'm not arguing it would be fantastic, but it won't be AS bad as some make it out to be.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 March 2016 - 02:38 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

I don't understand the sudden contention that humanoid mechs actually have BETTER hitboxes than non-humanoid mechs. Mathematically this makes no sense. Humanoid mechs will have a larger surface area per volume than non-humanoid mechs, and present the largest possible frontal profile. By default, their hitboxes will be worse. Using the concept of arm position as an advantage in torso blocking while twisting is disingenuous, as the much larger frontal profile is presented for a much greater number of degrees during twist than in non-humanoid mechs, meaning the advantage in arm blocking is already countered by the abnormally long visibility of the torso during a twist maneuver. By the time the arms finally come into play, the torso has already rotated through most available twisting degrees - the arm position only being a possible advantage approaching 80+ degrees of twist.

Especially after the rescale is complete, it's just better to be in a more compact mech.

[Pariah Devalis]

ScarecrowES, on 17 March 2016 - 03:15 PM, said:

I don't understand the sudden contention that humanoid mechs actually have BETTER hitboxes than non-humanoid mechs. Mathematically this makes no sense. Humanoid mechs will have a larger surface area per volume than non-humanoid mechs, and present the largest possible frontal profile. By default, their hitboxes will be worse. Using the concept of arm position as an advantage in torso blocking while twisting is disingenuous, as the much larger frontal profile is presented for a much greater number of degrees during twist than in non-humanoid mechs, meaning the advantage in arm blocking is already countered by the abnormally long visibility of the torso during a twist maneuver. By the time the arms finally come into play, the torso has already rotated through most available twisting degrees - the arm position only being a possible advantage approaching 80+ degrees of twist.

Especially after the rescale is complete, it's just better to be in a more compact mech.

Non Humanoid mechs tend to be wider in this game. Width is a huge thing for damage mitigation, as opposed to height which is far less of an issue. Humanoid designs, while having lower mounted arm weapons, have consistently been easier to armor roll than non-humanoid mechs, due to narrow side and center torso chunks. I am not even taking the arms into account, here. Even the Crab and Stalker are actually bad at armor rolling. What they are good at is focusing damage to a single side torso, but they are just awful if you are trying to actually spread that damage around.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 March 2016 - 03:20 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Pariah Devalis, on 17 March 2016 - 03:18 PM, said:

Non Humanoid mechs tend to be wider in this game. Width is a huge thing for damage mitigation, as opposed to height which is far less of an issue. Humanoid designs, while having lower mounted arm weapons, have consistently been easier to armor roll than non-humanoid mechs, due to narrow side and center torso chunks. I am not even taking the arms into account, here. Even the Crab and Stalker are actually bad at armor rolling. What they are good at is focusing damage to a single side torso, but they are just awful if you are trying to actually spread that damage around.

This doesn't really equate to better hitboxes though... and certainly walking unprotected STs like the Crab and Stalker would be outliers for non-humanoid mechs. Regardless, even in those extreme cases it's hard to argue that twist mitigation is less effective in controlling hit location in those mechs than in humanoid - owing to their ability to present each torso/arm section for a lower number of degrees than in humanoid mechs. The disadvantage Crabs and Stalkers face compared to most non-humanoid mechs is that their side torsos are exposed for a disproportionate amount of time in a twist compared to the center torso. They roll more damage to their sides than average. However, what little ability they lose in damage rolling they make up for in total torso shielding - which makes low-health survivability easier on those than other chassis.

[Pariah Devalis]

ScarecrowES, on 17 March 2016 - 03:46 PM, said:

This doesn't really equate to better hitboxes though... and certainly walking unprotected STs like the Crab and Stalker would be outliers for non-humanoid mechs. Regardless, even in those extreme cases it's hard to argue that twist mitigation is less effective in controlling hit location in those mechs than in humanoid - owing to their ability to present each torso/arm section for a lower number of degrees than in humanoid mechs. The disadvantage Crabs and Stalkers face compared to most non-humanoid mechs is that their side torsos are exposed for a disproportionate amount of time in a twist compared to the center torso. They roll more damage to their sides than average. However, what little ability they lose in damage rolling they make up for in total torso shielding - which makes low-health survivability easier on those than other chassis.

Two sides of the coin. Asym builds only work on some mechs, and there is nothing wrong with symmetrical builds if you know how to armor roll. The total damage you can soak with a humanoid mech spreading damage across the entire mech is higher than you can imagine, and all it takes is one patient player with good aim to lop off the loaded side torso of an asymmetrical mech, and that target is a nonthreat from there on out. Asyms can poke from exactly one direction, and poke extremely well while shielding with a deadside, but because of that they are also extremely predictable in a firing position.

Meanwhile, I love seeing asym EBJs or TBRs. People who do that don't seem to "get" why the deadside technique is crap on them. Pssst. I can still hit your side torso, even if you try and twist away. :3

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 17 March 2016 - 03:49 PM.