1212 replies to this topic

[Archangel.84]

Ooops good point about Refusal War date, I'd remembered it being closer to Tukayyid.

[ScarecrowES]

Lucian Nostra, on 09 March 2016 - 09:12 PM, said:

like I said as they took Nova Cat worlds those units joined the SLDF and fought against the Jaguars it was a 4 wave attack not like it just all happened at once fully hitting the depth of the Jaguars territory simultaneously.



The source Material is clear as I laid out in my prior post YOUR the ONLY source saying the Nova Cats joined the Combine in 58 prior to Bulldog. YOUR the ONLY source saying anything beyond talks started that early.

There IS no source to your claims I've laid out all the material I've drawn mine from and dude your wrong, just accept it, it happens. I was wrong earlier about the Kingfisher having only 1 slot in the torso open you don't see me trying to blindly defend that stance, I checked it when I got home I was wrong.

The sourcebooks lay out the planets hit and in those little sidebar quips you can find information about what trials the Cats tossed out. Like The Clans stating Avon, Caripare, Chupadero (all wave 1) and Mualang (wave 2) being standard battles but Sawyer (wave 1) being an arcade game battle, Bjarred (wave 2) being a coin toss, Irece (wave 1) being a drinking contest, and Itabaiana (wave 2) being a soccer game.

There where no Nova Cat units striking Jaguars till later in the invasion, and actually by source material it wasn't till wave 4 when the SLDF Nova Cat Lancers struck Kabah which was somewhere in August - September of 59 a unit which was made abtakha during wave 1 on the planet of Jeanette at the onset of Operation Bulldog by the Second Dieron Rangers.

But lets get to the root of all this your trying in some way to say that since the Nova Cat was used by the Nova Cats and the Mad Cat Mk II was used primarly by IS factions that that somehow makes them IS mechs not Clan mechs.

Well lets see where can we find instances of products sold to entirely different markets than the country that produces them? Oh the Ford Euro Car, a Ford produced vehicle sold in Europe and not in the US.. is that somehow suddenly a European car? Nope it's an American car on the European market.

Are the T-72M and the T-90E Russian tanks suddenly Arab and Chinese tanks since they are export only models? Nope those are Russian tanks sold to foreign markets

"Operation Bulldog was the military codename for the phase of the Star League offensive against Clan Smoke Jaguar in 3059 that was aimed at liberating that Clan's Occupation Zone in the Inner Sphere. Led by Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht and Archon-Prince Victor Steiner-Davion, the assault succeeded beyond their most optimistic hopes, thanks in large part to a lack of preparedness on the part of Clan Smoke Jaguar and no help from their fellow Clans.[1]

The operation's forces went under the flag of the new Star League Defense Force. The force included a large quality of the Draconis Combine army and newly claimed bondsmen of Clan Nova Cat, whom in secret, had defected to the Star League."

Defected. Past tense of defect. As in, prior to the specified timeline. Specified timeline is 3059. Defection prior to 3059.

" In 3058, Inner Sphere leaders cooperated to form what would become known as the Second Star League. While the other Clans saw this new Star League as a sham, the Nova Cats saw it as fulfilment of destiny.

The Second Star League decided that the complete elimination of a Clan was necessary to end the war between the Inner Sphere and Clans. Due in part to the Nova Cat talks with the Draconis Combine, the new Star League decided that this target Clan would be Clan Smoke Jaguar. This operation was known as Operation Bulldog. In a series of mock trials, Clan Nova Cat forces would become abtakha to the Star League forces and themselves join in the fight against the Smoke Jaguars."


And are you honestly suggesting that a car that is engineered and manufactured in Europe, and then sold in Europe to Europeans is not a European car because the company whose badge is on the front is headquartered in the US? If it's a US car, why can't anyone in the US drive it? Oh, that's right, because it was designed, built, and sold for the European market, not the US market.

C'Mon now. That's just absurd.

And the Russians don't sell weapons to China, strictly speaking. The Chinese build their own versions of Russian equipment all on their own because Communists have this weird idea that noone actually owns anything. BUUT, if the Russians were to build a tank that they, themselves didn't use... hard to call it a Russian tank when its rolling across a field with a Chinese red star painted on the side. You don't wander into the Iraqi deserts in 1991 and think you're suddenly squaring off against the Russian Federation because you're seeing the destroyed hulks of t-crappy tanks. Generally speaking, if you want to know whose tank or airplane or boat it is, just look for the flag on the side. The US uses Hawkeye and AWACS early warning aircraft. We build and sell Wedgetail early warning aircraft to other countries but don't use it ourselves. You don't look at a Wedgetail and say "hey, there's the US flying overhead right now." No, you go "hey, that's an Australian Wedgetail up there."

Edited by ScarecrowES, 09 March 2016 - 09:43 PM.

[Imperius]

ScarecrowES, on 09 March 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

I want the Mad Cat MK II

YES! Me too!

[ScarecrowES]

pbiggz, on 09 March 2016 - 09:23 PM, said:

You do understand that even IF the clans in the sphere were considered IS factions and not clans (and they are clans), their mechs are CLAN mechs using CLAN tech.

CLAN tech is a tech base. It has a separate set of stats and mechanics and does not rely on the faction making it. The Nova Cat, The Ursus, the MK II, and anything else manufactured in the occupation zones or by clans operating near or in the inner sphere are STILL CLAN MECHS no matter what side of CW you think they should be on. Under the current rules of MWO those mechs using that tech are used by the clans, not the IS, and are available not to the IS, but to the clans.

We're here trying to talk about what the next few clan mechs could be and you're just here trying to start a debate about the definition of a clan mech.

Yes, I am trying to debate about the definition of a Clan mech, because for the purposes of MWO, with mechs produced after 3058 it actually matters. Because you can no longer categorize a faction's allegiance by what TECH it uses.

You keep making arguments for my points, and then you whine about doing so.

PGI can't just release mechs past 3057 without first considering what side of the war they were actually on. Otherwise, as is the case with the MkII, Nova Cat, Arctic Wolf, and a dozen or so other mechs in the late 3050s/early 3060s, you release them for the wrong side if you only look at tech base.

[Kassatsu]

ScarecrowES, on 09 March 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

Yes, I am trying to debate about the definition of a Clan mech, because for the purposes of MWO, with mechs produced after 3058 it actually matters. Because you can no longer categorize a faction's allegiance by what TECH it uses.

You keep making arguments for my points, and then you whine about doing so.

PGI can't just release mechs past 3057 without first considering what side of the war they were actually on. Otherwise, as is the case with the MkII, Nova Cat, Arctic Wolf, and a dozen or so other mechs in the late 3050s/early 3060s, you release them for the wrong side if you only look at tech base.

That's practically happening already with every single individual mercenary pilot able to purchase and maintain entire battalions of both clan AND inner sphere mechs. Some of said pilots are so wealthy they'd put entire factions to shame.

Unless CW starts enforcing a strict "no kodiak if you're not a ghost bear*" policy (because that will happen, right?), don't expect to see anything similar in the future just because X were the only ones using Y.

*strictly using sarna as a reference, none of the other clans currently in the game used them

[Metus regem]

Kassatsu, on 09 March 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

That's practically happening already with every single individual mercenary pilot able to purchase and maintain entire battalions of both clan AND inner sphere mechs. Some of said pilots are so wealthy they'd put entire factions to shame.

Unless CW starts enforcing a strict "no kodiak if you're not a ghost bear*" policy (because that will happen, right?), don't expect to see anything similar in the future just because X were the only ones using Y.

*strictly using sarna as a reference, none of the other clans currently in the game used them

I try to do that for CW, my Drop deck either contains generic mechs found in all IS factions, or they have a "D" identifier marking them as Davion.

[pbiggz]

ScarecrowES, on 09 March 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

Yes, I am trying to debate about the definition of a Clan mech, because for the purposes of MWO, with mechs produced after 3058 it actually matters. Because you can no longer categorize a faction's allegiance by what TECH it uses.

You keep making arguments for my points, and then you whine about doing so.

PGI can't just release mechs past 3057 without first considering what side of the war they were actually on. Otherwise, as is the case with the MkII, Nova Cat, Arctic Wolf, and a dozen or so other mechs in the late 3050s/early 3060s, you release them for the wrong side if you only look at tech base.

My argument is that they can and will release mechs past 3057 because it doesn't matter what side those mechs were on, they're still clan tech and will be treated as such.

[ScarecrowES]

Kassatsu, on 09 March 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

That's practically happening already with every single individual mercenary pilot able to purchase and maintain entire battalions of both clan AND inner sphere mechs. Some of said pilots are so wealthy they'd put entire factions to shame.

Unless CW starts enforcing a strict "no kodiak if you're not a ghost bear*" policy (because that will happen, right?), don't expect to see anything similar in the future just because X were the only ones using Y.

*strictly using sarna as a reference, none of the other clans currently in the game used them

Well, as specified, because we divide the galaxy into two factions, and set it up so that any minor faction can use any of the toys from the major faction toybox, it wouldn't work this way in MWO regardless, and I've said several times I wouldn't agree to things being so faction-specific in MWO because it just wouldn't work.

BUT... The Kodiak is a Totem Mech for Ghost Bear. Most variants of the Kodiak were released AFTER Ghost Bear became a Warden faction and disassociated themselves with the remaining Clans in clan space and moved to the Inner Sphere.

It presents an interesting situation. Initial variants released prior to GB leaving clan space, so still technically qualifies as a clan mech... BUT, once GB moves to the Inner Sphere, it's technically an Inner Sphere mech... at least the later variants are.

[ScarecrowES]

pbiggz, on 09 March 2016 - 10:00 PM, said:

My argument is that they can and will release mechs past 3057 because it doesn't matter what side those mechs were on, they're still clan tech and will be treated as such.

Which is, lore breaking in the extreme. And extremely problematic if we ever actually shift timelines forward to the eras in which those mechs were actually released. If you release the MkII to the clans in the game as it is now (3053), do you take it away from them if the game gets to 3066?

I mean, if we're going to release mix-tech, why even bother with the whole faction/tech thing at all?

I'm not sure breaking tech down neatly to each faction ever really made sense for faction play anyway. As others have said, and I have too, Clans had access to IS mechs and tech prior to invasion. They used to be Sphere too. Once the Invasion started happening, mechs and tech ended up everywhere. Merc units could use whatever the hell they wanted, and had the funds to manufacture their own mechs. Dividing tech in CW creates such an imbalance between Clan and IS that PGI is never able to get right.

Why not just call it a wash and let everyone use everything. I mean, Quick Play already does that.

We're in 3053 now... it's only 5 more in-game years before this happens anyway. If we can release mechs from 3066, surely we can just drop tech exclusivity like in 3058.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 09 March 2016 - 10:10 PM.

[CK16]

Mad Cat Mk.II variants? I know I need to do some work on the legs and feet still. Also Might change the Launchers some though I do kinda like that TBR launcher look.

Thoughts?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

CK16, on 09 March 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

Mad Cat Mk.II variants? I know I need to do some work on the legs and feet still. Also Might change the Launchers some though I do kinda like that TBR launcher look.

Thoughts?

It catches the stance better than the MW4 version (seriously, the MW4 version is goofy compared to the TRO). That said, the legs could be in a more extended stance. I know in the TRO the legs are bent pretty steep, but I feel it looks a bit too squat (looks odd from the side for a 90 ton mech).

I don't like the shoulders being just above the hip with the arms being raised though. The shoulder should be higher up on the torso, at least in line with the gun portion of the arm.

Maybe lower the missile pods a little itty bit.

Reduce how long the torso is in general, particularly the rear portion, it feels a bit long in the torso (or just big in the torso) especially when you compare it to the legs which seem to be a bit out of proportion with the rest of it (not in height, but in girth).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 09 March 2016 - 10:20 PM.

[Coralld]

CK16, on 09 March 2016 - 10:13 PM, said:

Mad Cat Mk.II variants? I know I need to do some work on the legs and feet still. Also Might change the Launchers some though I do kinda like that TBR launcher look.

Thoughts?

Uh, how can I say it's horribly disgusting without offending you?

Just teasing, they look fine. What bothers me though is the mounting points on the arms are so low on the torso and the way they angle up words, they just always bother me.

Edited by Coralld, 09 March 2016 - 10:25 PM.

[Lucian Nostra]

This is your source? Some vague lines from a wiki page?

ScarecrowES, on 09 March 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

The operation's forces went under the flag of the new Star League Defense Force. The force included a large quality of the Draconis Combine army and newly claimed bondsmen of Clan Nova Cat, whom in secret, had defected to the Star League."

Newly claimed bondsmen, the whole turn of CNC would not be till the Great Refusal and while the Nova Cats made poor decisions they where not stupid enough to let the other clans know their plans for the trials that would take place

From The Clans "In an unanticipated move, the Khans of Clan Nova Cat - already viewed by many as traitors for the seeming defection of their troops in the Inner Sphere - chose to fight for the SLDF."

Even up to the Refusal they managed to keep what took place in those trials from being fully discovered.

From Dragon Roars "Iniatially, the other Inner Sphere leaders met with hostility Coordinator Theodore Kurita's proposal that the coalition exploit the Nova Cats' disdain for the Jaguars by enlisting the Nova Cats as allies in the offensive. Theodore managed to persuade them, however, by pointing out that Clan Nova Cat need not be made part of the coalition force; the alliance he envisioned would require no more than a certain minimal cooperation between the Nova Cats and the Inner Sphere. He correctly guessed that the Nova Cats could be persuaded to aid the coalition by simply offering token resistance against coalition forces on worlds in the Nova Cat occupation zones rather than weaking the inner sphere army with all out fights.
The Nova Cats responded to the Coordinators initial overtures with an immediate level of cooperation that suggestd knowledge of Theordore Kuritas plans. Nova Cat commanders voluntariy revealed the numbers and quality of their 'defending' troops by issuing preemptive batchalls to DCMS forcs, and in several cases bargained down their forces to the point no fighting took place. This indirect aid enabled the coalition to concentrate its forces against the Jguars and reduce the burden of administering liberated worlds after the offensive"

Hmm so.. I don't see anything about Nova Cats joining the forces till the SLDF forces hit their worlds nothing is said of a pre Bulldog switch of Nova Cat personal or units.

ScarecrowES, on 09 March 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

The Second Star League decided that the complete elimination of a Clan was necessary to end the war between the Inner Sphere and Clans. Due in part to the Nova Cat talks with the Draconis Combine, the new Star League decided that this target Clan would be Clan Smoke Jaguar. This operation was known as Operation Bulldog. In a series of mock trials, Clan Nova Cat forces would become abtakha to the Star League forces and themselves join in the fight against the Smoke Jaguars."

So.. yeah? Due in PART with Nova Cat talks, and yeah they did become abtakha as their planets got hit soooo? where you going with this?

So Im gonna finish this with the material I was trying to find earlier and finally found in Shattered Sphere

"After the Inner Sphere victory at Coventry, the Nova Cat Khans began receiving peaceful overtures from the Coordinator of the Draconis Combine. (So there you have it, after 30th of January 3058 is when the Combine started talking with the Nova Cats) The Combine and the Cats shared a devotion to warfare as a spiritual discipline, and the Coordinator's choice of his mystic-minded younger son Minoru as envoy to the Cats cemented this common ground. Over the next few months, Minoru persuaded the Nova Cat Khans to aid the newly formed SLDF in an assault on Clan Smoke Jaguar by refraining from attacking the Star League force being sent against the occupation zone. By offering token resistance against the SLDF on Nova Cat worlds, the Cats could satisfy the dictates of Clan honor while ensuring that the Inner Sphere would have more units to throw at the Cats' monst hated Clan enemy.
Unknown to the Combine's leaders, the Nova Cats were predisposed to accept the Kurita proposals, Not long before Minoru's arrival, Clan Oathmaster Biccon WInters had experience visions in which a dragon severely mauled a nova cat. and a nova cat and a dragon together killed a smoke jaguar. The Nova Cat Khans therefore took the Combines proposed alliance as the fulfillment of prophecy"

to continue in a section called Cats against the Jaguar

"Of the nine first wave targets, actual combat took place only on Kanowit and Avon, whose position demanded a show of serious contention"

"The Nova Cat commanders on Avon decided to stage the battle for tha world as a serious of Trials of Position against Kurita forces. Defeat meant that the Nova Cats would be absorbed int othe Draconis Combine and redeployed as SLDF units-a harbinger of things to come"

"Following the SLDFs narrow vicory the Clusters on Avon became the SLDF Nova Cats and assisted in major battles against the Jaguars on that world in the assaults second wave"

"by 7 July 3059, all targeted worlds lost to Clan Nova Cat were once again the property of the Draconis Combine As the SLDF assault procceeded without them, the Nova Cats were left to ponder just how far they wished to take their alliance with the fledgling Star League."

In The Great Refusal

"A day later Nova Cat Khans Lucien Carns and Severen Leroux came to the SLDFs field Headquarters with a startling request; to fight Clan Ice Hellion alongside the SLDF in the Trial of Refusal. --- Prince Victor granted their request, and the Nova Cats went on to thrash Clan Ice Hlelion in a fierce battle that claimed the lives of both Cat Khans and nearly killed Ice Hellion Khan Asa Taney, By this action and the word of Khan Carns, the Nova Cats pledged themselves to the Star League and gave their military forces to Victor to command - on Strana Mechty and wherever they might be needed in the future"

A surprise to even the SLDF.. CNC didn't turn full fledge till that point and to that point only the SLDF Nova Cat Lancers where actually redeployed in other attacks. Other WARRIORS might of been taken here and there but the Lancers are the only UNIT. Most per the fluff remained on their worlds as Garrison units to free up SLDF forces to continue on.

SO yeah.. Fiction is trumped by sourcebooks. Sourcebooks trump a wiki page, but in this circumstance the wiki isnt wrong it's just vague

Edit: BTW Im done with this, after typing a damn novel out of two books and referencing sources straight out of the books as you drew conjecture from a wiki page Im tired of this. If you want to continue to believe your right by sticking your head in the sand be my guest



And about your terrible references, you say it's an Australian Wedgetail but you don't say "The Wedgetail is an Australian plane" just like you'd say "that's an Iraqi T-72" not "T-72s are Iraqi tanks"

Ownership does not change who designed and produced it. We don't look at an F-16 in service with Israel, Pakistan or Turkey and go "oh the F-16 is an Israeli/Turkish/Pakistani plane!" It's an American plane in service with those nations.

When we stopped using M-3 Lees in WW2 but the Russians continued the tank didn't suddenly stop being an American tank and become a Russian tank because they became the sole users

Just like the Mad Cat Mk II is a Clan mech used by the IS and the Nova Cat is a Clan mech used by a Clan that was abjured from the Clans. They don't suddenly become IS designs. Your single handedly making me want to see the Mad Cat Mk II come out just to silence your BS

Edited by Lucian Nostra, 10 March 2016 - 07:48 AM.

[Lightfoot]

The Thor II (Grand Summoner)

I just want a Thor that works for MWO's Mechlab.

Again, there is nothing in the Lore that says that an omnimech is more limited than a standard mech in the ability to change internals and armor types. There is no Mechlab in the Lore at all. Mechlab is essentially a Mech Factory for players use in MechWarrior games and each MechWarrior game has different rules for it's Mechlab. Meaning the changes done on standard mechs in MWO would require a Mech Factory re-design in the lore. The omnipod switch-outs we are allowed to do are simple field modifications.

Truth is PGI just doesn't want to deal with balance issues resulting from extra payload on certain mechs, it's not the lore, Mechlab is not in the lore. IMHO freeing jump-jets, endo, and FF from the fixed equipment list would be more balancing than unbalancing. It's the Engine size that actually balances the mechs and keeps them from becoming franken'mech monsters. But MWO can't even support a single Gauss Rifle without goofing it up completely so they do have a problem.

[pbiggz]

Lightfoot, on 09 March 2016 - 10:41 PM, said:

The Thor II (Grand Summoner)

I just want a Thor that works for MWO's Mechlab.

Again, there is nothing in the Lore that says that an omnimech is more limited than a standard mech in the ability to change internals and armor types. There is no Mechlab in the Lore at all. Mechlab is essentially a Mech Factory for players use in MechWarrior games and each MechWarrior game has different rules for it's Mechlab. Meaning the changes done on standard mechs in MWO would require a Mech Factory re-design in the lore. The omnipod switch-outs we are allowed to do are simple field modifications.

Truth is PGI just doesn't want to deal with balance issues resulting from extra payload on certain mechs, it's not the lore, Mechlab is not in the lore. IMHO freeing jump-jets, endo, and FF from the fixed equipment list would be more balancing than unbalancing. It's the Engine size that actually balances the mechs and keeps them from becoming franken'mech monsters. But MWO can't even support a single Gauss Rifle without goofing it up completely so they do have a problem.

Grand summoner could be put in just as a straight up replacement to the summoner without even adding in a new model, because literally the only difference between the summoner and grand summoner is endo steel and jumpjets on the grand summoner are not fixed.

Coincidentally, doing those two things to the summoner (giving it locked endo steel and unlocking jumpjets) would make the mech actually terrifying, because it would have more podspace than the timberwolf.

[Thorn Hallis]

Why would the lore need to mention that armor and internals of an Omni'Mech are fixed anyway? Customization on that Level would be considered waste by the Clans, thats enough "lore" reason, isn't it?

[Widowmaker1981]

Thorn Hallis, on 10 March 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Why would the lore need to mention that armor and internals of an Omni'Mech are fixed anyway? Customization on that Level would be considered waste by the Clans, thats enough "lore" reason, isn't it?

Yes, well the design concepts for some of the Omnimechs could be called criminal waste in the first place... Looking at you Mr. Ice Fridge.

[FupDup]

pbiggz, on 10 March 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

Grand summoner could be put in just as a straight up replacement to the summoner without even adding in a new model, because literally the only difference between the summoner and grand summoner is endo steel and jumpjets on the grand summoner are not fixed.

Coincidentally, doing those two things to the summoner (giving it locked endo steel and unlocking jumpjets) would make the mech actually terrifying, because it would have more podspace than the timberwolf.

It also has better hardpoints on some variants, like 4E + 2B + 1M on the Prime.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 10 March 2016 - 09:26 AM, said:

It also has better hardpoints on some variants, like 4E + 2B + 1M on the Prime.

Well that is the Summoner F with an extra medium laser and an LRM15 in place of an LRM10.

If we could only get the F and G Summoner pods now.....

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 10 March 2016 - 09:34 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

pbiggz, on 10 March 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

Grand summoner could be put in just as a straight up replacement to the summoner without even adding in a new model, because literally the only difference between the summoner and grand summoner is endo steel and jumpjets on the grand summoner are not fixed.

Coincidentally, doing those two things to the summoner (giving it locked endo steel and unlocking jumpjets) would make the mech actually terrifying, because it would have more podspace than the timberwolf.

Basically what the EBJ is to the HBR. If they made a "Grand Hellbringer," that mech would have been a scary piece of work in tabletop. Ferro, Endo, all the toys of the original but with all the armor and heat sink efficiency the original lacked, minus the unnecessary A-Pods since it has MG anyways....

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 10 March 2016 - 09:49 AM.