248 replies to this topic

[Inglix]

JP Josh, on 02 March 2016 - 12:37 AM, said:

and then one ecm srm totting commando ruins your day.

lrm's are a punish the stupid weapon. only works if the enemy lets it work. its why boating them is either really really good....

or your just eaten alive.

LRM's punish new players who can't afford Radar Deprivation. Also, post ignores the obvious buffs in groups (especially organized groups) which is like saying the PPC (non-ER) sucks because of travel or minimum / maximum ranges.

The problem with LRM's is that they are improperly implemented, in reality. Extremely high heat.

Indirect (non-LOS) lock = artillery splatter damage (multi-hex, very low damage) likely no damage with AMS
Indirect TAG/NARC = decent damage - partially dependent on AMS, if it exists low, if not medium damage
Direct fire LOS = good damage, better than current, less time for AMS to intercept
Direct fire TAG/NARC = best damage, less time for AMS to intercept

The same goes for ballistics and lasers. All weapons have advantages and drawbacks.

[MischiefSC]

Okay.

Please take them to MRBC, MS invitational, RHOD or even just Church of Skill of you can find them.

Go crush all the best teams and players in the game with LRMs. Success is determined by what actually wins. What actually succeeds. If you want to show how great LRMs are go show us how great they are against great players.

Yes, LRMs are great against bads and give big damage numbers per kill. They have been proven, without exception, to be inferior in practice however to direct fire.

Don't agree? Go prove it. Show us. Take LRMs to an actual competitive environment and compete with them.

[Trauglodyte]

I average 155 damage per game per LRM rack. I have a 50% to-hit chance with LRMs and take a ton of ammo per 10 tubes. That is a little less, on average, than the damage that I do with PPCs, which is also at about a 50% to-hit chance, and under half of what I do with Medium Lasers (about 400 damage per match). LRMs aren't bad, people that use them are bad. Doing 5 potential damage at a max range of 1000m, or longer if you have the right equipment, for 2 heat with a weapon that doesn't absolutely require me to see a target is phenomenal. Again, as I keep having to repeat myself, LRMs are an additive weapon and shouldn't be leaned upon as a primary weapon.



PS> Radar Dep just makes me sigh. A module created to help bads against a limited weapon system is just beyond mind boggling. Yet, people still cry about LRMs or make the original post about doing 1/3rd the damage potential and thinking that is good.

Edited by Trauglodyte, 02 March 2016 - 07:02 PM.

[Novakaine]

MischiefSC, on 02 March 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

Okay.

Please take them to MRBC, MS invitational, RHOD or even just Church of Skill of you can find them.

Go crush all the best teams and players in the game with LRMs. Success is determined by what actually wins. What actually succeeds. If you want to show how great LRMs are go show us how great they are against great players.

Yes, LRMs are great against bads and give big damage numbers per kill. They have been proven, without exception, to be inferior in practice however to direct fire.

Don't agree? Go prove it. Show us. Take LRMs to an actual competitive environment and compete with them.

The only reason their inferior is because PGI and whiners made them so.
But one thing is for sure they are just support weapons.

[Milocinia]

Curccu, on 02 March 2016 - 04:38 AM, said:

You tier 5 scrubs could actually try to play in some competitive league and see how awesome your mixed unit tactics with almighty LRM support are.

It's comments like that, looking down and sneering on every non-comp player, that encourage me even less to want to go anywhere near your e-peen style of play.

[MischiefSC]

Novakaine, on 02 March 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

The only reason their inferior is because PGI and whiners made them so.
But one thing is for sure they are just support weapons.

I hate to say this. I really do. Not because I think it's inappropriate or whatever but the concern that 99% of the people who see it will think it applies to them and it doesn't.

There are people who kick azz with LRMs. There's a guy in 22AL (Panic Button) who LRMs like a boss. I'll take him in an LRM Awesome over most people in the meta of their choice any day. Sticks with the team, shares armor, gets his own locks, brawls with LRMs and MLs like a champ, is near the front on a push even.

I've played with some great LRM pilots. It's like Jman5 in a Hunchie - some people really are able to make their own meta. That's awesome and I'm all for it.

That's not most people. That's not almost everyone. 1 player with 2 LRM boats in their deck who really knows how to use them is a great addition to your team in CW. 4 people who bring LRMs so they can stand in the back with their Atlas or King Crab and LRM are why you lose.

Lrms are demonstratively inferior than direct fire, mech for mech. With I tiny handful of truly exceptional exceptions you're better off with a direct fire team.

I recall pugging in CW and dropping with some random pug with 4 LRM boats and an APOC 10man. We were absolutely wrecking face and the LRM guy says "You guys keep killing them before my LRMs even get there!"

Yes. Exactly. He didn't even realize how ironic his statement was and it sums up more or less on total this entire discussion.

[Hollehund]

http://www.twitch.tv...vier/v/31536528

gonna leave that right there....

[Hydrocarbon]

I ran one mad dog with lurms in CW, but only for Boreal & only to level the chassis. It had 4xSPL's in the arms and half my kills were from the lasers. Run up to them like they were an ice cream truck then core them out with pinpoint damage. However every one of the 4 SRM builds I tried were superior in kills & damage.

If your teammates are losing torsos before your armor is gone, you are doing it wrong.

[Novakaine]

MischiefSC, on 02 March 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

I hate to say this. I really do. Not because I think it's inappropriate or whatever but the concern that 99% of the people who see it will think it applies to them and it doesn't.

There are people who kick azz with LRMs. There's a guy in 22AL (Panic Button) who LRMs like a boss. I'll take him in an LRM Awesome over most people in the meta of their choice any day. Sticks with the team, shares armor, gets his own locks, brawls with LRMs and MLs like a champ, is near the front on a push even.

I've played with some great LRM pilots. It's like Jman5 in a Hunchie - some people really are able to make their own meta. That's awesome and I'm all for it.

That's not most people. That's not almost everyone. 1 player with 2 LRM boats in their deck who really knows how to use them is a great addition to your team in CW. 4 people who bring LRMs so they can stand in the back with their Atlas or King Crab and LRM are why you lose.

Lrms are demonstratively inferior than direct fire, mech for mech. With I tiny handful of truly exceptional exceptions you're better off with a direct fire team.

I recall pugging in CW and dropping with some random pug with 4 LRM boats and an APOC 10man. We were absolutely wrecking face and the LRM guy says "You guys keep killing them before my LRMs even get there!"

Yes. Exactly. He didn't even realize how ironic his statement was and it sums up more or less on total this entire discussion.

I think we are in agreement, my only argument is that PGI could make them a bit better.
That's all, they are support weapons - "Hell somebodies gotta do it."

[Novakaine]

Hollehund, on 02 March 2016 - 08:56 PM, said:

http://www.twitch.tv...vier/v/31536528

gonna leave that right there....

And that's how it's done.
To funny

[Kin3ticX]

LRMs are the Hadouken fireball of MWO.

Sure you can blast through single player on easy by spamming down foward punch in Street Fighter II, but it is hoped you will learn something else along the way. For MWO, LRMs provide good initial power with a low skill floor, and allow people to occasionally beat superior pilots caught in a pickle. (everyone has to win sometimes)


The problem is that LRMs are a whole swathe in the mwo/battletech arsenal and come stock with many many 'mechs. They just don't skill scale well, so there is a tendency for better players to completely discard them. The Mwo community is diverse, ranging from competitive, lore purist, casual, and everything between. People naturally feel a need to include more LRMs for the sake of LRMs themselves.

It just that if you boil LRMs down, they are a poopy weapon & the LRM counterplay is boring and frustrating. The basic idea is that every LRM boat you add incrementally cripples your direct fire. Fighting against LRMs can be a painful drag usually ending in the defeat of the lurm spam.

Even if they were buffed they would still have issues, yet perhaps only create LRM massacres in the bottom tier games.


Just my opinion on LRMs.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 02 March 2016 - 10:07 PM.

[Novakaine]

Meh I like spam.

[Wolfways]

Hydrocarbon, on 02 March 2016 - 09:02 PM, said:

If your teammates are losing torsos before your armor is gone, you are doing it wrong.

Because not letting the enemy shoot you is doing it wrong...

[Templar Dane]

Wolfways, on 02 March 2016 - 02:02 AM, said:

So LRM's are good because you do 1/3 of max damage/ton with them forcing you to carry 14tons of ammo to be effective...
14tons of ammo!
14tons!!!

He also says that he usually doesn't even deal that much damage. Only 1/3 of his volleys HIT at all. So his LRM 60 is more like an LRM 20, and even then that's just a hit.......didn't say what he hit.

Those are likely hits where his target has gone into cover and part of the volley hit another mech, or that they grazed an arm as the target was going back into cover.

[Templar Dane]

Novakaine, on 02 March 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

And that's how it's done.
To funny

That is how it's done. The problem is.....how often are you going to have an entire lance worth of narc equipped lights AND the rest of the team is built to take advantage of that?

[Thunderbird Anthares]

lordtzar, on 02 March 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

That is how it's done. The problem is.....how often are you going to have an entire lance worth of narc equipped lights AND the rest of the team is built to take advantage of that?

whenever the commander decides to do that is the correct answer here i believe...

now, a little something



did this with http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e57215649e55413
mind you, getting 3 kills and 7 assists with this mech is not at all uncommon - and i get a decent amount of face time with it aswell due to the ridiculous durability this mech has... i dont straight out "tank" with it, but im not afraid to trade shots and melt face, even though its a little hot to do that for long

i call this one my "recreational" mech - its quite literally the mech i run if i want to chill and melt face in a extremely universal machine... it allows me to fire all match, swing missiles around a corner, stay with the team, do most of the assaulty things, humiliate LRM hunters, and have a cigarette and a coffee at the same time

problem with this is... try pulling this off with an IS mech
THE POWER DIFFERENCE IS BRUTAL AND RIDICULOUS
IS LRM are much better on paper - in practice any kind of a IS mech you try like this ends up a barely crawling ammo stockpile waiting to explode, with LESS damage on the LRMs and much more spread - calling it "less effective" is a joke at this point

if there is any instance where i can straight up say that Clan tech is overpowered as all hell to the point of tears... its here

[Malachy Karrde]

Clan is the only good LRM option. The launchers are light as hell. And they do damage at all ranges, more at 180 plus but still some at lesser. Also no worries about ammo explosions so you can put your ammo anywhere and forget about it. I have a Mad dog that I adore... 4 mpls, tag and 6x lrm 5. Got 3 kills, 4 kmdd and did 800 plus damage and didn't even try. Got my own locks and stayed with the group. Got 3 brawling credits too. I had most kills and most damage for my entire group... I dare anyone to say I wasn't pulling more than my fair share in that match. A properly utilized lrm mech can hold its own. It's the idiots who only install lrms and don't balance their load outs, simply lobbing missiles who are the problem. Btw... I usually run a dire wolf or warhawk... I usually do that type of match with those mechs... the mad dog I took out just for kicks tonight. It went back into storage because it just wasn't much fun melting anything that I locked onto without giving them a chance to fight back. I usually drop in cw with this mech because it can turn the tables pretty quick as laser vomit Sallies aren't expecting to run into it.

[H I A S]

MischiefSC, on 02 March 2016 - 06:58 PM, said:

Okay.

Please take them to MRBC, MS invitational, RHOD or even just Church of Skill of you can find them.

Go crush all the best teams and players in the game with LRMs. Success is determined by what actually wins. What actually succeeds. If you want to show how great LRMs are go show us how great they are against great players.

Yes, LRMs are great against bads and give big damage numbers per kill. They have been proven, without exception, to be inferior in practice however to direct fire.

Don't agree? Go prove it. Show us. Take LRMs to an actual competitive environment and compete with them.

Fun fact: one Team try it against us in a scrim that used mrbcrules (drop3) on polar. They used two fast narcers and six LRMboats.
We used a Victor with longrange the rest was srmbombs. Do you know what happened to them? They only managed to kill one mech before we can jump in theire face. Every drop we only lost 1 Mech.
LRM's are bad as hell even on the "best" map for them.

Edited by arivio, 03 March 2016 - 12:30 AM.

[Curccu]

MischiefSC, on 02 March 2016 - 08:39 PM, said:

There are people who kick azz with LRMs. There's a guy in 22AL (Panic Button) who LRMs like a boss. I'll take him in an LRM Awesome over most people in the meta of their choice any day. Sticks with the team, shares armor, gets his own locks, brawls with LRMs and MLs like a champ, is near the front on a push even.

I've played with some great LRM pilots. It's like Jman5 in a Hunchie - some people really are able to make their own meta. That's awesome and I'm all for it.

Then again PanicButton and Jman5 are good players and I know they do even better with directfire weapons.

But when it comes to goodness of LRMs, two mechs you mentioned are very very heavily quirked for LRMs (hunch got nerfed a bit but still huge quirks).

[Curccu]

Novakaine, on 02 March 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

The only reason their inferior is because PGI and whiners made them so.
But one thing is for sure they are just support weapons.

IMO it is irrelevant in this current topic how they should be or could be, only how they are right now... as you said... inferior.