119 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

wanderer, on 04 March 2016 - 11:56 AM, said:

Eeyup. "Support" doesn't equal "hold locks plz" while firing at extreme ranges, though- or rather, that's not doing nearly all of your job. Your job is to bollix up the enemy team. Killing them is often merely a pleasant side effect.

I think a major part of this is that at high end play, the mantra is just "LRM's are bad, and only bad players use them."

Then what happens is few decent players bother working with them and learning to use them effectively. So, people using them poorly ends up being the standard people judge them by.

LRM's can be used very effectively, but it requires a lot more thought, and in particular team-based thinking. This makes them potentially very useful in the solo queue because even at higher tier play, most solo queue play is extraordinarily selfish. Keeping multiple mechs' heads down, blunting pushes, contributing weight of fire even in tighter confines where you'd be unable to contribute direct fire for risk of FF.

For example, a favourite play of mine with my mad dog is following closely behind my teams brawlers. They target something, and I can stream 35 tubes of LRM's into him in a non-stop rain, blinding him and tearing through his armor. I can use this even when there's not physically a way for me to get direct line of fire because friendly brawlers are in the way. I can optionally target a separate enemy, to reduce his ability to help his beleaguered ally.

Whenever I can get los within 200m or so, I'm pushing 20dps into my target. LRM's spread, but lrm5's don't spread THAT much, and the 5 lasers don't spread at all.

Tight quartets happen. Mining colony, River City, and even Crimson Straights are examples of where more direct fire isn't always helpful simply for lack of space.

And of course the more open maps, polar highlands, caustic, frozen city, where more traditional lrm use can be quite effective.

[Dawnstealer]

El Bandito, on 03 March 2016 - 07:03 PM, said:

Had the same situation, just rallied the pugs with others and pushed. Died within 7 seconds of the push while doing around 200 damage in a Mauler, but we won. Sometimes it is just about YOLOing.

I'm a preeminent YOLOer, which is one of the reasons my KDR isn't awesome. But one thing to keep in mind is that this is only a game, and you only live YOLO once.

[Thell]

Well, at least the video was more bearable muted.

[Bishop Steiner]

So......

Someone didn't play in Pro Approved Manner, smoked "Pro-Style" team, much salt and insults, QQ blah blah blah?

K. Awesome.

You lost. Accept it. Got outplayed. What may or may not have happened on another map? Irrelevant.

And people wonder why -MS- has a bad rep, lol.

[C E Dwyer]

A few LRM boats on your team with a balanced load out, (haven't taken off the lasers to fit moore lurms in, whats bap, why do I need tag), in PUG's is often a good deal, when half your team are lurm boats your usually in for a hiding if, two or three in the other team know what they're doing.

That said, they're part of the game, and they semed to have torn up a few people good for all the claims of bad weapons..take more ams with your builds ;-)

[Sader325]

Sandpit, on 04 March 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

All I'm going to say on this one?

Sader you're just looking and sounding kinda salty that you got beat by a weapon you personally feel is "inferior". You also make a lot of assumptions in regards to the other team's skill level, what if scenarios on different maps, etc.

You guys made some really poor decisions. There were only (what appeared to be) 4 lurm mechs and they were spread out. Basically you got with your pants down and didn't react very well to it lol

That means they had 8 other mechs not carrying lurms. That's a well-balanced force composition more than anything else. That's what mechs and mech forces are supposed to look like, not all boating 1-2 weapons and playing according to their alpha damage

It's exactly what needs to happen. You guys brought zero counters to a good balanced force that took advantage of the fact that you guys weren't prepared.

Honestly, you guys just sound really salty that you got beat by lurms in my opinion

http://www.twitch.tv...r325/v/52351372

http://www.twitch.tv...r325/v/52352631

Proper use of LRM's is something that is commonly showcased, and talked about in my stream. I have no problem with LRMs. Within my unit, I am known for LRM use and making arguments for how they can be used effectively.

I've spent a lot of my own time personally using, testing, and tweaking my builds to find LRM builds that would be good vs actual non derp players.

The key is accuracy, chucking missiles the way most people use them in solo queue is incredibly inneffective and extremely hit or miss depending on the opponent. I shoot for 80-100% accuracy for my LRM fire, and the only time I accept less than that is when my LRM mech is focused 100% on LRM fire and nothing else.

For example: watch the first 8 minutes of this video:

So once again, I have no problem with LRMs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sader325, on 04 March 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

http://www.twitch.tv...r325/v/52351372

http://www.twitch.tv...r325/v/52352631

Proper use of LRM's is something that is commonly showcased, and talked about in my stream. I have no problem with LRMs. Within my unit, I am known for LRM use and making arguments for how they can be used effectively.

I've spent a lot of my own time personally using, testing, and tweaking my builds to find LRM builds that would be good vs actual non derp players.

The key is accuracy, chucking missiles the way most people use them in solo queue is incredibly inneffective and extremely hit or miss depending on the opponent. I shoot for 80-100% accuracy for my LRM fire, and the only time I accept less than that is when my LRM mech is focused 100% on LRM fire and nothing else.

For example: watch the first 8 minutes of this video:

So once again, I have no problem with LRMs.

So what's with the extra helping of salt on comms, then?

Not trying to sound dickish, just kinda curious.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 04 March 2016 - 01:50 PM.

[habu86]

Wintersdark, on 04 March 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

I think a major part of this is that at high end play, the mantra is just "LRM's are bad, and only bad players use them."

Then what happens is few decent players bother working with them and learning to use them effectively. So, people using them poorly ends up being the standard people judge them by.

I seriously doubt that folks in Tier 1 don't know how to use LRMs effectively. In having played however many thousands of games they will have played to get there, they will probably end up trying and learning how to LRM for the sake of variety, if nothing else. And then they will also realize how in 9 times out of 10, they can do better with direct fire stuff and load up accordingly.

Now, it is equally true that it's easy to get complacent and tell yourself that "no one brings lrms, and if they do they're gonna be terrible with them", so no one bothers with running AMS and ECM anymore.

Which is how you end up with the above situation, where all the lrm boats are on one team, they know what they're doing, no one's carrying equipment to counter and the terrain is too devoid of hard cover to get around it.

If anyone needs a refresher on what happens when the OPFOR is expecting LRMs and prepping accordingly, take a look at Silken's "LRM vs. Meta" series.

Bishop Steiner, on 04 March 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

So what's with the extra helping of salt on comms, then?

Not to whiteknight for Sader (he doesn't need me to anyways), but imma go with just one of those times when frustration boils over. We all have those moments every now and again, and they sometimes become public to our later regret

Edited by habu86, 04 March 2016 - 01:43 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Sader325, on 04 March 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

So once again, I have no problem with LRMs.

That may be, but your video certainly doesn't sound that way.

See, this is why it's drawn a fair bit of ire: Not that you don't like LRM's, but that you're outright insulting and derogatory (you, or someone else who's talking there? I don't know who's talking, so I apologize if it's not you) to the opposing team that's beating you with LRM's.  That's pretty much the very definition of "salty scrub tears", so yeah, that's why people react the way they do.

Now, I'm willing to bet it wasn't intentional, but it's very much "normal" amoungst those crowds, things that are said without much thought.  That in many ways makes it grate even more.

Edited by Wintersdark, 04 March 2016 - 01:52 PM.

[Wintersdark]

habu86, on 04 March 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

Not to whiteknight for Sader (he doesn't need me to anyways), but imma go with just one of those times when frustration boils over. We all have those moments every now and again, and they sometimes become public to our later regret

Well, when you post this moment as the subject of the thread, perhaps it's going to become the focus of the thread? The video is the OP, after all.

[Sandpit]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 March 2016 - 01:36 PM, said:

So what's with the extra helping of salt on comms, then?

Not trying to sound dickish, just kinda curious.

If I had to guess?
The same stuff you hear on 90% of TS groups when they get beat and/or frustrated. That's like hearing an NFL player mic'd up as opposed to at a podium for an interview.

[LordSkyKnight]

Sandpit, on 04 March 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

2-3 decent lurm boat pilots along with 2-3 harassers/scouts, 2-3 brawlers in a competent team's hands is going to be much deadlier and more well-rounded than a team composed of boating 1-2 weapon systems and niche builds.

This is simply not true right now. A typical comp build with a couple scouts and the rest optimized direct fire builds will crush a mixed deck every time.

We're seeing some cases in the -MS- tourney where having some midrange fire support for in a brawl deck can be a good thing if the map allows for it, but the fire support is still all direct fire lasers/ballistics.

Sandpit, on 04 March 2016 - 11:43 AM, said:

If that were done with any other weapon system I'd get a pat on the back from teammates. In the case of lurms though, the "elite" in this game seem to think it's a bad thing.

The main reason why that is: Your 600 LRM damage is splashed all over your target's legs, arms, side torsos, and center torso. And you don't get to control which component, and whoever you're shooting at DOES have some impact over the component it hits and whether or not you hit at all. THAT is why LRMs are sub par right now. Of your 600 damage, maybe only 200-300 is actually useful damage, whereas with direct fire weapons, it's more in the pilot's hands how much of their damage is useful, rather than the targets. As such, more like 400-500 of that 600 damage is going to be useful damage with direct fire weapons.

I don't think LRMs are a "noob weapon" or "no skill" or anything like that. They're simply sub par weapons for their tonnage and heat generation. And the elite players of the game don't use sub par weapons.

[Yosharian]

Nobody likes being lurmed to death, but boy is it satisfying watching people go up in flames when the lurmers are on your side.

That said, I personally don't like being lasered to death either.

[Sandpit]

LordSkyKnight, on 04 March 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

And the elite players of the game don't use sub par weapons.

this statement right here is why we'll just have to agree to disagree

It's a matter of opinion. I'll take 2-3 lurm boats turning in 600+ damage over 2-3 direct fire turning in 2-300 damage any day of the week.

LordSkyKnight, on 04 March 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

Of your 600 damage, maybe only 200-300 is actually useful damage,

and this

[Wintersdark]

Yosharian, on 04 March 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

I don't think LRMs are a "noob weapon" or "no skill" or anything like that. They're simply sub par weapons for their tonnage and heat generation. And the elite players of the game don't use sub par weapons.

I don't argue this.

What I object to in this is the "elite players" getting salty because they got trounced by those sub par weapons, and actively calling them unskilled and such in that match.

It's the salt that's at issue here.

I mean, it was a fairly cool view, all those LRM's constantly streaming, and without the salt I know I wouldn't have commented at all.

[habu86]

Sandpit, on 04 March 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

It's a matter of opinion. I'll take 2-3 lurm boats turning in 600+ damage over 2-3 direct fire turning in 2-300 damage any day of the week.

Considering the general wisdom on % effective lrm damage kind aren't those numbers more or less right at the point of indifference?

Edited by habu86, 04 March 2016 - 02:12 PM.

[LordSkyKnight]

Sandpit, on 04 March 2016 - 02:08 PM, said:

It's a matter of opinion. I'll take 2-3 lurm boats turning in 600+ damage over 2-3 direct fire turning in 2-300 damage any day of the week.

It's not really a matter of opinion though? I'd imagine most of the top comp teams have done their own internal testing. I know we have (I play for SRS for anyone who doesn't know). Based on that testing, they simply don't do enough damage to justify bringing them. It has nothing to do with any preconcieved bias towards low skill weapons or anything. We use skill crows when they're called for for pity's sake, and those are the most low skill boring thing to play ever. It just math and playtesting. LRMs are not as strong as the best direct fire weapons right now.

Wintersdark, on 04 March 2016 - 02:09 PM, said:

I don't argue this.

What I object to in this is the "elite players" getting salty because they got trounced by those sub par weapons, and actively calling them unskilled and such in that match.

It's the salt that's at issue here.

I mean, it was a fairly cool view, all those LRM's constantly streaming, and without the salt I know I wouldn't have commented at all.

People lose their cool sometimes, especially when they're losing. And not all top tier players are angels.

I am, of course 0:)

[Sandpit]

habu86, on 04 March 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

Considering the general wisdom on % effective lrm damage kind aren't those numbers more or less right at the point of indifference?

again, just going to be a disagreement of opinions.
same as players who claim "meta is best" and such

LordSkyKnight, on 04 March 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

It's not really a matter of opinion though? I'd imagine most of the top comp teams have done their own internal testing. I know we have (I play for SRS for anyone who doesn't know). Based on that testing, they simply don't do enough damage to justify bringing them. It has nothing to do with any preconcieved bias towards low skill weapons or anything. We use skill crows when they're called for for pity's sake, and those are the most low skill boring thing to play ever. It just math and playtesting. LRMs are not as strong as the best direct fire weapons right now.




People lose their cool sometimes, especially when they're losing. And not all top tier players are angels.

I am, of course 0:)

[Yankee77]

Aresye, on 03 March 2016 - 09:39 PM, said:

Personally I like having some form of control over match outcome. Bringing a weapon system into solo queue that can be made 100% ineffective due to random chance with the matchmaker isn't very fun in my eyes. Sure, the MM may put a bunch of solo comps on one side while giving me a bunch of brand new T3 steam users, but at least I know I can still play to 100% of my own personal capability.

The same applies to literally every single weapon types, including (and particularly) LRMs. It all depends on how your team plays.

A sniper loadout is going to struggle on maps that favour brawling, while brawler loadouts struggle with maps that favour long ranged weapons. That applies to LRMs too, of course.

Furthermore, most maps have areas that favour a type of gameplay over another, and it's up to your team to capitalize on it (or deny it to the other team). And that still applies to highland. There's spots the OP could have found to protect themselves very well from LRMs, and to brawl effectively (I've done plenty of brawling on Highlands with my SRM hunchie, for example). And conversely even the really brawly maps tend to have areas where LRMs and snipers can operate.

In any case, what the OP shows is a tier 1 team trying to fight a team with significant LRMs on its own terms, with predictable results. It's no different to how a team full of snipers would do were they to push into a bunch of splatmechs.

And, indeed, this is the kind of game I want to play: a game where "scouting and determining enemy composition and position in order to counter it" is an important tactic. Playing in the enemy's hand and then blaming the game for getting destroyed is rather silly.

And yet I imagine the OP wouldn't have been complaining if the enemy had wiped them in some of those alternate scenarios (like if they were snipers, moved into brawler area, then got murdered by a swarm of splatcats). This is mostly evidence of a strange bias against LRMs, which you usually see at the lowest tier: complaining about getting killed by LRMs, and refusing to accept that it was their mistake that killed them (which is, in actuality, no different than if you turned a corner, ran into their brawling line, and got murdered).

[Tyler Valentine]

Sader325, on 04 March 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

http://www.twitch.tv...r325/v/52351372

http://www.twitch.tv...r325/v/52352631

Proper use of LRM's is something that is commonly showcased, and talked about in my stream. I have no problem with LRMs. Within my unit, I am known for LRM use and making arguments for how they can be used effectively.

I've spent a lot of my own time personally using, testing, and tweaking my builds to find LRM builds that would be good vs actual non derp players.

The key is accuracy, chucking missiles the way most people use them in solo queue is incredibly inneffective and extremely hit or miss depending on the opponent. I shoot for 80-100% accuracy for my LRM fire, and the only time I accept less than that is when my LRM mech is focused 100% on LRM fire and nothing else.

For example: watch the first 8 minutes of this video:

So once again, I have no problem with LRMs.

Sure are changing your tune now that everyone pointed out you sounded like an a55hat.

Not a good look Sader.