170 replies to this topic

[vandalhooch]

Lobo VVahya, on 05 March 2016 - 04:05 PM, said:

it's not objective if it's against the games TOS,

What?

TOS is just as subjective as any other opinion. The point of the ToS is that we as players agree that PGI's subjective opinion is the one we will go by. The OP was pointing out that it appears that PGI has caved to the subjective opinions of some players.

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There also has been cases of online bullying being put to court. When you use racial slurs and homophobic slurs, Or continually harass someone with things like killing yourself, I hope you die by being hung, Your family deserves cancer etc... Objectivity does not play a roll.

Courts exist because so much of what is and is not "nice" is subjective.

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You use a comedian as an example. IF a white comedian hopped on stage and said things like, you N words need to be hung, and All gays deserve to die. Especially THIS N WORD right here (picking out a random audience member). I hope you're entire family dies of cancer, the public outrage would be unreal.

Care to take a look at what often happened to early black comedians?

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Not to mention legality issues.

I think that you would find that most courts would rule a comedian is a performance artist and free speech is pretty liberal as to what is legally allowed.

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I shouldn't have to deal with members of NKVA hoping into to team speak and us calling Maggots with a F instead of M.

Every time I see this "NKVA is homophobic" trope trotted out, I just want to laugh my *** off. Seriously, you should spend some time dropping with those guys.

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I also shouldn't have to deal with it in game.

Is that what happened here? Or is that what you are imagining happened here?

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There are in fact lines that cross

Your lines are not in the same place as my lines. That's the whole point.

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and I think you'll find that every video game has a terms of service, and it's no longer about objectivity but the pure fact that they continually break it.

They? One of their members has agreed that one player crossed a line. Why should all of them be punished for it? How do you know that they continually break it? Are they continually punished by PGI? Or are you substituting your judgement of what is and is not a violation in place of theirs?

As Mischief already pointed out, lots of players violate the ToS all the time. But, the subjective opinion is that those transgressions are of a minor nature and shouldn't warrant punishment. I don't see you up in arms about all those crossings of the line.

NKVA has earned a reputation for pushing the boundaries of where most people put their own subjective lines. And now, it seems that several of them are being held to account for the actions of one individual just because they've pushed the line in the past.
Do you even know what profiling is and why courts have often ruled that it is a violation of a person's rights?

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Take league of legends or WOW for example. You will get perma banned for all of those comments.

Hell i'd argue you get banned much much faster.

So ToS's are totally subjective? Thanks for making my point.

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These people deserved their ban,

Nice to know that any decent defense lawyer would instantly dismiss you from a jury.

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I'm on swols side as much as anything. I've beaten swol numerous times never have I been reported.

How do you even know that?

[MischiefSC]

Bud Crue, on 05 March 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

Yep. Need booze, at least, for this. I'll check back later, but my guess is this will be gone or at least in K-town, by the time I am in any condition to give a well thought out analysis of this very heavy situation.
Until then golden rule kids, golden rule.

Not correct.

1. 1 guy in NKVA says something bannable.

2. 9 people in NKVA get banned.

Why?

Because NKVA has regularly poked a specific group in a specific faction who gets absolutely spastic when they feel disrespected. Nothing against ToS, nothing worse than what you hear in your average FRR drop.

Nothing worse than what gets said all over the forums and repeatedly in this thread.

However since it offended a particularly cowardly segment of a particularly cowardly group most of NKVA tends to get nuked.

That's the problem.

Go look at k-town threads for an example of what qualifiles and exactly what group in what faction reports you for doing and saying stuff that gets ignored everywhere else.

Someone in NKVA doing something to get banned isn't the surprise. The problem is that a specific segment of a specific faction is prone to working the report and support ticket system to get moderation on forums and in game beyond what otherwise applies.

[Monkey Lover]

SA Baxter, on 05 March 2016 - 04:46 PM, said:

You can't go to jail for being part of a club where one person does something wrong. You go to jail when you've actually done a crime and been charged with it and then tried. An unmonitored club might get raided or examined by police but they don't throw people in jail just for being there.

Guilt by association is a logical ad hominem fallacy, and for all that people claim that NKVA has violated the TOS only one person can be proved to have, the rest of the banned members were not told what they had said that violated the TOS, and one account wasn't even being used.

That is all there is to it, the rest of the argument is people trying to justify the moderator's actions because their feelings have been hurt.

Lol oh yes they do , they take everyone down town and file charges later. Holding people for 3 days isn't out of the norm.

Just as if people on your team and typing things they shouldn't and you're in the same unit and some says you where doing something over voip. They're going to see the environment you are were in and trust the reporter.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 05 March 2016 - 05:27 PM.

[SA Baxter]

Monkey Lover, on 05 March 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

Lol oh yes they do , they take everyone down town and file charges later. Holding people for 3 days isn't out of the norm.

Just as if people on your team and typing things they should and you're in the same unit and some says you where doing something over voip. They're going to see the environment you are were in and trust the reporter.

There is no legal system in the world in which you can be charged with guilt by association. Being arrested and held is different from being charged. I do not think you actually know much about how the police or law work.

[Monkey Lover]

SA Baxter, on 05 March 2016 - 05:26 PM, said:

There is no legal system in the world in which you can be charged with guilt by association. Being arrested and held is different from being charged. I do not think you actually know much about how the police or law work.

Being in jail 3 days i still being in jail 3 days to me buddy. You can get as technical as you want. I never said anything about charges. You hang around bad people bad stuff will happen to you. It's as easy as this.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 05 March 2016 - 05:32 PM.

[Richter Kerensky]

Monkey Lover, on 05 March 2016 - 05:30 PM, said:

Being in jail 3 days i still being in jail 3 days to me buddy. You can get as technical as you want. I never said anything about charges. You hang around bad people bad stuff will happen to you. It's as easy as this.

And this is fair to you?

[SA Baxter]

Monkey Lover, on 05 March 2016 - 05:30 PM, said:

Being in jail 3 days i still being in jail 3 days to me buddy. You can get as technical as you want. I never said anything about charges. You hang around bad people bad stuff will happen to you. It's as easy as this.

You do not go to jail when you are arrested but not charged, you are in remand and either held at the police station or a remand centre, in most countries the period with which you can be held is much shorter unless you are suspected of a serious crime and you will not be held for the full period.

You also are still presumed innocent at that point, remand is not a punishment it's a bureaucratic process. You have access to legal counsel and you can actually talk to the people holding you as they work out what happens. Being banned for two weeks is a punishment, and PGI has so far refused to listen to people asking why they have been banned and also not corrected the situation.

If we are going to use the law as a metaphor in this situation, the law is fair and impartial and presumes innocence, PGI is neither and has presumed guilt. It would of course be easy to say that this isn't a legal situation of course but you are the one who has insisted on comparing it to one.

Edited by SA Baxter, 05 March 2016 - 05:44 PM.

[Chef Kerensky]

Holy ****

[Monkey Lover]

Richter Kerensky, on 05 March 2016 - 05:41 PM, said:

And this is fair to you?

Life isn't fair and online games are even worse.

[MischiefSC]

Monkey Lover, on 05 March 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

Life isn't fair and online games are even worse.

Would you consider that a bug or a feature?

I am confident that if a bunch of us brigaded the **** out of FWL because they were winning on the Davion border and kept at it until you got a 2 week ban because someone on you team in that drop said something inappropriate.

I suspect you're good with it because it's NKVA, not a Marik unit.

Look at the last couple of pages. The self-righteous assertions that NKVA deserved it because... they're rude. The flat out insults to NKVA, flat out insults that if it were another unit would generate a **** fit.

Even more to the point if it was the exact same insults pointed at a particular unit that's home to a particular segment of a particular faction those comments would be moderated and the thread already in K-Town.

[SA Baxter]

Monkey Lover, on 05 March 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

Life isn't fair and online games are even worse.

You know, I was once playing a game, and I got stuck at some point. It was an Xbox era FPS, couldn't get past one area because I had too little health and it used checkpoint saves, and after failing a few times it went to a different restart screen.

"Life isn't fair, but videogames should be" it said, and it offered to restore my health so I could get through that area.

See, with videogames, one of the critical things is that it should be fair and balanced, and it's fairly easy to do so. The reason people are complaining about this is not because unfairness and arbitrary decisionmaking are common, it's quite the opposite in fact.

Please let me know when you're starting to understand.

[Aresye]

Nope, absolutely not reading this whole thread, so I'll just jump right in...

Even if a unit mass reported someone, isn't it still ultimately up to PGI to investigate and determine if a ban is truly warranted?

If only 1 player deserved a ban, but 9 players got banned in the end, isn't PGI the one ultimately responsible?

[habu86]

I think we're forgetting something here, namely that none of the accusations here are supported by incontrovertible proof.

Even with the one player that everyone seems to agree deserved a timeout, we don't have actual proof that PGI handed out that ban as a result of the email sent by SWOL. Allegedly sent, if you really want to get technical, since we haven't seen proof of that either; not doubting your word, Blueduck, just trying to make a point about how little evidence has been presented by any of the parties. Considering all the factors involved, it would certainly stretch credulity to believe that's not the case, but, the fact remains that, until PGI actually comes out and tells us the reason why, we can't be 100% sure.

Considering the apparently arbitrary nature of the bans (an inactive alt account? seriously?), a case could also be made that someone on the PGI mod team decided to make an example out of NKVA and pulled the names out of hat, including that of our "lucky" winner.

But that's neither here nor there. We've got a threadful of snide accusations, and, technically, forbidden discussion, by which we've all broken ToS, and a couple of... mobs, really, screaming for blood. On the one hand we've got the anti-NKVA crowd who wants to see the "meanies" gone from their game because they can't handle a couple of childish taunts. On the other we've got folks accusing SWOL of brigading the report button, even though no one has produced any proof that SWOL has actually done so in this instance.

Honestly, at this point I would make the argument that the community would be best served by PGI coming out and drawing a line in the sand with respect to what is and isn't acceptable in-game behavior, especially with respect to chat, and releasing chat log examples of what constitutes acceptable behavior and what does not.

After that point, if someone gets butthurt over something on the near side of the line, tough ****; they can just grow a thicker skin or play something else. If someone goes beyond the line, then they have been warned and they deserve whatever (appropriate) punishment they get.

And we would all be spared this kind of senseless forum drama....







.... even if it is kind of entertaining

Edited by habu86, 05 March 2016 - 06:15 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Aresye, on 05 March 2016 - 06:03 PM, said:

Nope, absolutely not reading this whole thread, so I'll just jump right in...

Even if a unit mass reported someone, isn't it still ultimately up to PGI to investigate and determine if a ban is truly warranted?

If only 1 player deserved a ban, but 9 players got banned in the end, isn't PGI the one ultimately responsible?

It's a fair question.

The problem is if I report you and your unit constantly for stuff that everyone else does all the time, PGI is inevitably going to look at you differently.

There have been threads full of well known players making very personal insults to named members of PGI staff. If you've ever seen a post of mine on the f^cking use of quirks to balance tech you've seen numerous examples of bypassing profanity filters.

Yet if NKVA makes a humorous post brutally mocking a specific faction it'll be on K-Town before you've got a full page of responses. In K-Town individual posts will get deleted. In years of brave forum warrioring here the only times I have ever been moderated was when I was critical of a specific segment of a specific faction (can't name them or you'll never see this post) which got reported and nuked in a hurry.

PGI has a lot to do. I've always had good results with support, even when I was being critical (like being irritated and refunding stuff). They are inevitably going to respond based on stimuli. You can't ask them to just keep up with everything here - hell, I can't and I'm sitting in a meeting right now at work still forumwhoring.

That's the issue. NKVA breaks ToS sometimes. They need banned for it. I've reported NKVA posts before but it's been a while. That is what it is.

Last week though I reported a guy for typing in all chat "you f^cking [racial slur I'm not repeating]". Saw him in another match yesterday. The context was not joking around either. This last week dropping with MS I see **** nightly said to them that's worse than your average NKVA trashtalk. As an example someone specifically telling our drop caller he was a truly terrible human being and should be ashamed of himself... went down hill from there.

That guy is probably playing right now. I'm betting 9 people on his team didn't get banned for 2 weeks either.

No, there is a bunch of cowardly, feeble children in a particular faction who work the moderation system to try and punish NKVA for hurting their fee-fees.

[pbiggz]

Monkey Lover, on 05 March 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

Life isn't fair and online games are even worse.

If this is true, then when someone says rude things to you on the internet you better put on your big boy pants and stop pretending you can get them removed from the internet forever because "its only fair they were mean to me". You cannot in any way successfully stand behind an argument that 9 people were deserving of 2 week bans because 1 person said something distasteful, but when the reports were submitted, the people who submitted those reports knew full well that NKVA would be more heavily moderated, or in other words, they wouldn't get due process. I expect this is part of the reason the reports were sent in the first place.

Edited by pbiggz, 05 March 2016 - 06:22 PM.

[Wildstreak]

After reading this thread, I feel like I am watching a jury debate a cop shooting a minority.

[Dawnstealer]

I would like to mention that I *STILL* don't have a Hatchetman. This is unacceptable.

Reporting.

[Monkey Lover]

pbiggz, on 05 March 2016 - 06:20 PM, said:

If this is true, then when someone says rude things to you on the internet you better put on your big boy pants and stop pretending you can get them removed from the internet forever because "its only fair they were mean to me". You cannot in any way successfully stand behind an argument that 9 people were deserving of 2 week bans because 1 person said something distasteful, but when the reports were submitted, the people who submitted those reports knew full well that NKVA would be more heavily moderated, or in other words, they wouldn't get due process. I expect this is part of the reason the reports were sent in the first place.

Yet the big boys are crying on the forums over 2 weeks.

[ccrider]

Dropped with a new member of NKVA while pugging cw. Very polite, asked questions, pushed when asked to push. Seemed like a cool person. Left game feeling pretty good. Then I remembered all the truly hurtful things said in the forums about Davions and lurms and the way none of those guys ever complimented my hairstyle so I just started hammeri ng the ol report button like a boss.


Had nothing really to add to the thread but I felt left out. I figured I'd either post nonsense or report all of you for not inviting me to this thread. Opted for nonsense since I only had 5 reports to use.

New member of NKVA I dropped with was very nice though. Don't fall into the trap of stereotyping people based on their unit.

Edited by ccrider, 05 March 2016 - 07:46 PM.

[Star Trek]

Just re-iterating that the issue isn't the guy who said really really questionable stuff getting banned. As soon as we saw that, we told him he was an idiot and to expect a ban. The issue is the fact that probably half of our unit got two week bans without any kind of rhyme or reason. The bans included our leader, Scoops, who literally never says anything mean in all chat -- that's kinda his thing. In addition, people who weren't present in the game, or even playing that night (one account that was banned hadn't logged in for months!) got two weeks. On top of this, the ban emails totally missing reasons for the ban; usually we get specifics (actual quotes from ingame) about what exactly was offensive. Anyway, thanks for reading this block of text. Here's your reward:

Edited by Star Trek, 05 March 2016 - 08:25 PM.