195 replies to this topic

[SQW]

Ace Selin, on 20 March 2016 - 07:27 AM, said:

[REDACTED]

Firstly, don't insult people. Secondly, insulting people who's right while spouting your own mistaken belief just makes you look foolish.

Here's how LRM really works:

LRM will track targets up till the point you lose target lock. That means LRMs without Narc will aim for the last place it sees the target lock. There's no magic 3.5 sec track after breaking lock.

I'm not sure where you get the 3.5 sec from but default LOS target lock does retain lock for a second or two after losing LOS. Maybe you've mistaken how LOS target/radar lock and missile lock affects each other?

So, if you fire LRM and turn 180 like you suggested, your LRM will only track to the spot where the lock last existed and no further. That means unless your target stood still for the entire duration of the flight, a few steps in either direction would mean a miss for your missile. That is why the Radar Deprivation module is so useful - the INSTANT you lose LOS of target with Radar Dep module, your LRM will only track to the last spot you had the lock.

LRM is NOT a fire and forget weapon. That's why people laugh at noobs who spams missiles with the briefest target lock because they don't understand YOU NEED TARGET LOCK FOR THE ENTIRE DURATION OF THE MISSILE FLIGHT FOR LRM TO TRACK TO THE TARGET.

Edited by Scout Derek, 21 March 2016 - 08:10 AM.
Removal of Unconstructive post.

[choopy]

Well, seems like theres a variety of opinions on the matter. I suppose i wanted to see what others think and now i do. thanks to those who gave a different viewpoint, admittedly this Post was brought up after about 4 or 5 rounds in a row that involved LRM boating bringing me down to critical condition. I personally felt that this took a lot of the fun out of the experience, (though i gotta admit, making this forum post has just made me feel worse...a lot of anger in there)

So, thanks for the imput, I'm not sure how much more of this i'll read, but up to this point ive read all the replies. thanks again

[Catho Sharn]

SQW, on 20 March 2016 - 07:57 AM, said:

LRM will track targets up till the point you lose target lock. That means LRMs without Narc will aim for the last place it sees the target lock. There's no magic 3.5 sec track after breaking lock.

I suspect the poster you're replying to assumes the LRM user has advanced target decay fitted (which any dedicate LRM boat should have).

[Bishop Steiner]

choopy, on 20 March 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

Well, seems like theres a variety of opinions on the matter. I suppose i wanted to see what others think and now i do. thanks to those who gave a different viewpoint, admittedly this Post was brought up after about 4 or 5 rounds in a row that involved LRM boating bringing me down to critical condition. I personally felt that this took a lot of the fun out of the experience, (though i gotta admit, making this forum post has just made me feel worse...a lot of anger in there)

So, thanks for the imput, I'm not sure how much more of this i'll read, but up to this point ive read all the replies. thanks again

It's a hot topic issue.

And it's greatly impacted by a number of factors: Team vs PUG, tier levels (tiers 4-5 LRMs are considered a big issue, tiers 1-2, trash weapons that get and your team killed) and exacerbated by the release of the Archer, which most people on the forums (not me) were dreaming of making into a "premiere SRM brawler".

Once the realities of the hitboxes hit, well, about the only way to survive any length is to hold back and LRM.

And if you get NARC'd well, it makes it even less fun, no matter your tier.

Biggest thing about LRMs

-Radar Deprivation Module and
-Guardian ECM make them all but useless.
-Concealment keeps them from locking on
-Tall cover protects like gangbusters, so always stay within a couple seconds if possible of it.
-LRMs are slow as tar, so if they are holding way back and lobbing them
-Ignore the LRM mechs and concentrate on killing their spotters.
-If they ain't got a spotter, you can step out of cover, fill them full of direct fire and step back into cover before the Rain arrives.

The thing with LRMs, is they lose to coordinated direct fire, almost every time. Aggressive teams that use cover and push into their faces, destroy them. The Issue I see most often, is most teams want to hunker down and play Hide and Peek, and that is setting yourself up to be LRM bait (or get rolled by an aggressive direct fire team). And the moment the "incoming Missiles" message arrives, sphincters really tighten, it seems.

Your Lights and MEdiums should either be killing their spotters, or especially with Lights, getting into the backfield and raising merry cain so that the LRM boats have to cry for their Lights (spotters) to come back and protect them.

etc, etc.

In uncoordinated and inexperienced Matches, LRMs have a morale killing effect, just like Artillery IRL. The more coordinated and aggressive the team gets, the less an issue LRMs are.

[SQW]

Catho Sharn, on 20 March 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

I suspect the poster you're replying to assumes the LRM user has advanced target decay fitted (which any dedicate LRM boat should have).

Yeah, I suspected that too but then he made that comment about LRM and PPC and it showed that his understanding of LRM is all over the place.

PGI really shouldn't depend on external wiki to inform user the finer points of its weapons.

Edited by SQW, 20 March 2016 - 08:38 AM.

[Damia Savon]

Ace Selin, on 20 March 2016 - 07:27 AM, said:

I get it your a tard who cant read, get your mum to explain what i first wrote then post again.

Yes much like PPCs you can shoot LRMs and once launched turn around and face the opposite direction and if the target is in the same position both the PPC bolt and LRMs will hit the target. So yes in essence are fire and forget, With a lock they will track for 3.5 sec after you have turned.

No moron, lrm are not fire and forget. Fire and forget means they would automatically track and hit their target. If you dumb fire them, see different term, they go right ahead. What you are saying is the equivalent of "I can shoot my PPC at the target without aiming and it will hit him".

Anything directly fired at a stationary target hits. That is not fire and forget.

I am including a link so you can educate yourself dolt.
https://en.m.wikiped...Fire-and-forget

Advanced targeting decay is not fir and forget either. It helps you keep a lock after you would otherwise lose it. Seriously don't spread false info.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ace Selin, on 20 March 2016 - 07:27 AM, said:

[REDACTED]

SQW, on 20 March 2016 - 07:57 AM, said:

Firstly, don't insult people. Secondly, insulting people who's right while spouting your own mistaken belief just makes you look foolish.

Here's how LRM really works:

LRM will track targets up till the point you lose target lock. That means LRMs without Narc will aim for the last place it sees the target lock. There's no magic 3.5 sec track after breaking lock.

I'm not sure where you get the 3.5 sec from but default LOS target lock does retain lock for a second or two after losing LOS. Maybe you've mistaken how LOS target/radar lock and missile lock affects each other?

So, if you fire LRM and turn 180 like you suggested, your LRM will only track to the spot where the lock last existed and no further. That means unless your target stood still for the entire duration of the flight, a few steps in either direction would mean a miss for your missile. That is why the Radar Deprivation module is so useful - the INSTANT you lose LOS of target with Radar Dep module, your LRM will only track to the last spot you had the lock.

LRM is NOT a fire and forget weapon. That's why people laugh at noobs who spams missiles with the briefest target lock because they don't understand YOU NEED TARGET LOCK FOR THE ENTIRE DURATION OF THE MISSILE FLIGHT FOR LRM TO TRACK TO THE TARGET.

Catho Sharn, on 20 March 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

I suspect the poster you're replying to assumes the LRM user has advanced target decay fitted (which any dedicate LRM boat should have).

SQW, on 20 March 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

Yeah, I suspected that too but then he made that comment about LRM will still track targets for 3.5 sec after turning around 180 and it shows his understanding of LRM is just all over the place.

Damia Savon, on 20 March 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

No moron, lrm are not fire and forget. Fire and forget means they would automatically track and hit their target. If you dumb fire them, see different term, they go right ahead. What you are saying is the equivalent of "I can shoot my PPC at the target without aiming and it will hit him".

Anything directly fired at a stationary target hits. That is not fire and forget.

I am including a link so you can educate yourself dolt.
https://en.m.wikiped...Fire-and-forget

Advanced targeting decay is not fir and forget either. It helps you keep a lock after you would otherwise lose it. Seriously don't spread false info.

Yes, but even with ATD Mod, you have to track the general area, it just keeps them highlighted to be tracked for 3.5 seconds (though not sure how Radar Derp and ECM affect it). If I turn right after firing? My Missiles do not track the target, and once you get just a little ways off for more than a second your reticle turns yellow, meaning no lock, regardless.

I wonder if this misconception is where people who don't use LRMs often get the incorrect belief that LRMs are super easy mode aiming?

OH, btw,
https://youtu.be/PeXVSitcW74

Edited by Scout Derek, 21 March 2016 - 08:11 AM.
Removal of unconstructive quote

[Mole]

I see a lot of people in here talking about how TAG and NARC and BAP and Advanced Target Decay are must-haves for LRMs. I've been doing just fine in my archer and Kintaro without these bells and whistles. Granted though, I never take a mech into combat that relies solely on its LRMs. My Kintaro has lasers that, while only delivering 10 points of damage, do see regular use and I get kills with them often. My Archer has 4 SRM4s in its arms that make it a serious threat to even a completely fresh mech if they get too close. I enjoy my Archer 5W a lot. It's got deadly LRMs and deadly SRMs which means I can choose at which range I wish to engage the enemy and still be just as dangerous an opponent either way.

[Damia Savon]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

Yes, but even with ATD Mod, you have to track the general area, it just keeps them highlighted to be tracked for 3.5 seconds (though not sure how Radar Derp and ECM affect it). If I turn right after firing? My Missiles do not track the target, and once you get just a little ways off for more than a second your reticle turns yellow, meaning no lock, regardless.

I wonder if this misconception is where people who don't use LRMs often get the incorrect belief that LRMs are super easy mode aiming?

Exactly. ATD doesn't mean you can drop the lock after firing, target something else, and still have your missiles hit the first target. If you want to be sure the lrms hit your target then you have to hold the lock until they hit, meaning your sight flashes red. All ATD allows you to do is keep that lock a bit longer.

Frankly it would not surprise me if people thought ATD was some sort of guidance system. Honestly after reading these anti-lrm threads I think most LRM haters have the IQ of a poo flinging monkey. These are the same twits who think BAP or the Command Console shortens lock on time or that Artemis works indirectly.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mole, on 20 March 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

I see a lot of people in here talking about how TAG and NARC and BAP and Advanced Target Decay are must-haves for LRMs. I've been doing just fine in my archer and Kintaro without these bells and whistles. Granted though, I never take a mech into combat that relies solely on its LRMs. My Kintaro has lasers that, while only delivering 10 points of damage, do see regular use and I get kills with them often. My Archer has 4 SRM4s in its arms that make it a serious threat to even a completely fresh mech if they get too close. I enjoy my Archer 5W a lot. It's got deadly LRMs and deadly SRMs which means I can choose at which range I wish to engage the enemy and still be just as dangerous an opponent either way.

NARC is great to have... just not so much on the LRM mech itself, but if you have a Light with one? The Force Projection multiplies exponentially.

I'm not sure what the "counter" Range is for BAP anymore tbh with all the changes, though I always found it much more "mandatory" for SSRM mechs than LRM since even at the maximum range, that was a mighty small window. Usually only thing to do was break their ECM and LRM someone far away while someone closer kills the ECM threat.... or you use your CQB guns on it, at which point the "usefulness" to LRMs is questionable. I guess I would describe it as "situationally useful".

TAG though? If you want fast locks, and to actually make MONEY for your trouble? TAG really is pretty much mandatory.

But yes, all LRM Mechs should have decent enough short range guns to defend themselves/still be a threat.

I swap out my CPLTs TAG for a 4th laser, depending on my mood, because sometimes I'm just feeling too aggressive and the 4th laser matters.

Of course, the fact that NARC and TAG occupy offensive slots to begin with, is a nuisance.

[Damia Savon]

Mole, on 20 March 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

I see a lot of people in here talking about how TAG and NARC and BAP and Advanced Target Decay are must-haves for LRMs. I've been doing just fine in my archer and Kintaro without these bells and whistles. Granted though, I never take a mech into combat that relies solely on its LRMs. My Kintaro has lasers that, while only delivering 10 points of damage, do see regular use and I get kills with them often. My Archer has 4 SRM4s in its arms that make it a serious threat to even a completely fresh mech if they get too close. I enjoy my Archer 5W a lot. It's got deadly LRMs and deadly SRMs which means I can choose at which range I wish to engage the enemy and still be just as dangerous an opponent either way.

Like anything else, it depends. I generally do not carry NARC because if targets are close enough to be NARCED then I am better off shooting lasers or getting the heck out. In this age of radar dep, NARC is more useful to keep track of targets in cover.

TAG is great to cut through ECM at longer ranges and it can help shorten lock on time but you have to keep it on target. That usually means facing your enemy and getting shot apart. If a mech, like my C1, had low or limited energy mounts the I tend to leave tag off.

BAP is great to help negate ECM but mostly for streaks and close in shots.

Advanced Targeting Decay is the only Must. It does help you hold locks longer and hit more targets.

It depends on the mech too. Generally if you use larger launchers then every bit tends to help. If you are spamming 5s, then you don't need much.

[Bishop Steiner]

Damia Savon, on 20 March 2016 - 09:22 AM, said:

Exactly. ATD doesn't mean you can drop the lock after firing, target something else, and still have your missiles hit the first target. If you want to be sure the lrms hit your target then you have to hold the lock until they hit, meaning your sight flashes red. All ATD allows you to do is keep that lock a bit longer.

Frankly it would not surprise me if people thought ATD was some sort of guidance system. Honestly after reading these anti-lrm threads I think most LRM haters have the IQ of a poo flinging monkey. These are the same twits who think BAP or the Command Console shortens lock on time or that Artemis works indirectly.

It does seem that very few of the LRM haters, in any tier are really that familiar with the specifics.

If LRMs were so easy, why are they, globally, the lowest accuracy weapon in the Stat sheet? Especially since only terribads tend to mount the LRM20s and such which miss with significant number of missiles, even on a "Hit".

LRM effectively means, close range, grabbing your own locks, tons of maneuvering, and lots of opportunity to get hit be "real" fire and forget (no not in the military sense)... aka ppc, ACs and such where you pop up, take the shot and drop back to cover... no tracking for 5 seconds after the shot, mandatory.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 March 2016 - 08:37 AM, said:

Yes, but even with ATD Mod, you have to track the general area, it just keeps them highlighted to be tracked for 3.5 seconds (though not sure how Radar Derp and ECM affect it). If I turn right after firing? My Missiles do not track the target, and once you get just a little ways off for more than a second your reticle turns yellow, meaning no lock, regardless.

I wonder if this misconception is where people who don't use LRMs often get the incorrect belief that LRMs are super easy mode aiming?

OH, btw,
https://youtu.be/PeXVSitcW74

360 retention alleviates that inconvenience...

[UglyPony]

The Amazing Atomic Spaniel, on 19 March 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

I find the laser spam far more annoying. Point. Click. Do instantaneous damage. Repeat. Yawn.

Except it is NOT instantaneous damage. You have to hold the laser on target to get the full damage. Also, you should be sticking to cover to minimize threat from any type of fire. That includes lasers and missiles. It's your fault if someone finds themselves able to hold a laser on you and repeatedly nail you without you being able to counter it. I myself need to do a better job at tactical movement and maintaining appropriate cover. But that is my fault. Not the enemies.

Edited by UglyPony, 20 March 2016 - 10:22 AM.

[UglyPony]

This makes no sense. If you and those of your team employ some of the tactical counter-measures against missiles, and you stick to proper cover, you can easily avoid most missile damage. If you have a team members using AMS, ECM, and you use the 'Radar Deprivation' Module, while also being wary of making yourself an easy target by running across an open filed while jumping up and down, while yelling, "HERE I AM!", you should have no real issue.

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 20 March 2016 - 10:16 AM, said:

360 retention alleviates that inconvenience...

Yes. If they are within 200 meter. So a 180 meter minimum to a 200 meter maximum. Very useful.

360 is useful for SSRMs, nothing else.

[wanderer]

Catho Sharn, on 20 March 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

I suspect the poster you're replying to assumes the LRM user has advanced target decay fitted (which any dedicate LRM boat should have).

Which is another amusing thing about LRMs. ATG modules are basically required for even minimally effective launching, meaning you get a multi-million tax just to do things right.

Even more amusing, there's plenty of people who just slap a bunch of LRMs on and ignore this, leading to them being even more LRM-bad than is normally possible. And of course, Radar Dep basically neutralizes this, which is another reason why LRMs suffer more vs "good" (read: equipped) players.

The LRM is the only weapon that generally needs additional equipment to be "good" and gets equipment commonly equipped by opponents to make it WORSE. If every weapon system in the game had the number of counters LRMs had, we'd have already burned PGI's offices to the ground and strung Paul up on a lamp-post.

[wanderer]

UglyPony, on 20 March 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

Except it is NOT instantaneous damage. You have to hold the laser on target to get the full damage. Also, you should be sticking to cover to minimize threat from any type of fire. That includes lasers and missiles. It's your fault if someone finds themselves able to hold a laser on you and repeatedly nail you without you being able to counter it. I myself need to do a better job at tactical movement and maintaining appropriate cover. But that is my fault. Not the enemies.

And I have to hold my crosshairs on target just to get the lock and FIRE missiles. You'll be dealing laser damage while I do it and I don't get to turn away, because lock-on. Heck, your laser can go through it's entire burn time and be done before my missiles reach medium range, radar dep kicks in and I deal zero damage.

That would be part of why LRMs generally lose trades, BTW. We don't get instant lock-ons so we can fwooshwooshwoosh our packages your way. You pop up, we have to acquire target (and cycle through multiple targets if you weren't already our first target), hold the crosshair while it locks, fire, hold the crosshair on you while the missiles travel at the speed of slow (160, by which for comparison an AC/20 is 600) until they impact on you.

Or you ducked into cover and they chew dirt. Repeat.

[Peenutts]

Gyrok, on 19 March 2016 - 01:45 PM, said:

That is precisely what LRMs and SSRMs are doing....using LRMs is jokingly easy...

You spelled lasers wrong

[Alardus]

Peenutts, on 20 March 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

You spelled lasers wrong

No he didn't. He didn't even say laser.. oh. I see what you tried to do there.