257 replies to this topic

[Kotev]

sycocys, on 06 April 2016 - 02:53 AM, said:

Why, you think other genres with actual successful eSports don't fit into the comparison of "Highest skilled eSport."?

like apples and oranges, both are eatible but not same taste, so we must compare mwo with simillar games

[Thunderbird Anthares]

i'd laugh if it wasnt so sad

[Bud Crue]

We need more players.

Forget all that CW lacks. Forget better balance. Forget lost potential. Forget all of the stuff we as a community complain about, that PGI acknowledges as a problem that needs fixing and then provocatively ignores. Forget all of that for a moment, and acknowledge that most of the ills of this game relate or originate to a lack of a large player base. What the game needs more than anything is more players; and that is what this tournament is about. Another attempt, for good or ill, by PGI to attract more players to the game.

So despite my own derision of the tournament role-out, and many of the other things PGI has done of late, I have decided to shelve my fairly new, yet intense hostility for PGI and its decision making (thanks last two town halls!) and re-evaluate my views regarding MWO.

Regardless of how I feel about the utterly unprofessional way PGI has conducted themselves as of late. Regardless of how I feel about the state of the game. Regardless of how absurd I think this "highest skill tournament in esports" is...
I enjoy the game and I want to keep playing it. If you do too, then it is in your best interest that this "highest skill tournament in esports" is a smashing success. It really is that simple. We need more players, particularly we need more players who actually have an interest in playing the game long term (no comment on steam); and a successful tournament that garners lots of positive attention could help draw them in.

So regardless of our own personal axes to grind with PGI, it is in all of our interests to try and be constructive and even helpful to their effort here (hard swallow): for the good of the game and its hoped for future.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

we have a LOT of players
players that just gave up and left rather than to put up with PGI's lack of ethics and professionalism

and as long as PGI continues to lead their business and development like this, i dont really care
we have zero competition for PGI's spawn - the question on my mind is more about if its even worth it to want to keep this disfigured spawn alive, or if its just better if it ends its agony and something else takes its place

i have been disappointed too many times since Beta to be willing to cut them any slack now

[Bud Crue]

Thunderbird Anthares, on 06 April 2016 - 03:47 AM, said:

we have a LOT of players
players that just gave up and left rather than to put up with PGI's lack of ethics and professionalism

and as long as PGI continues to lead their business and development like this, i dont really care
we have zero competition for PGI's spawn - the question on my mind is more about if its even worth it to want to keep this disfigured spawn alive, or if its just better if it ends its agony and something else takes its place

i have been disappointed too many times since Beta to be willing to cut them any slack now

I want to disagree, but...

[NextGame]

Deathlike, on 05 April 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

I hate to tell you that comp play is a little more than just aiming. There's a lot more decision making involved (the thinking man's part that is nearly non-existent in pub play or CW).

Yes, but also No, compared to most other games.

[102_devill]

Kotev, on 06 April 2016 - 02:43 AM, said:

Who will name more complex and competitive game then MWO?

(must be same genre, not star craft etc.)

I don't know if this applies, but IL-2 Sturmovik had E-sports tournaments... Now that is infinitely more complex than MWO, and not just because it is in 3 dimensions...

[STEF_]

Revis Volek, on 05 April 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

Its advertising, mediocre advertaising.

Fixed.

[El Bandito]

PGI had lost so many whales/potential whales during 2013-2014, thanks to the IGP fiasco. BT fans are 10x more valuable to retain than a regular Steamie.

As for the tournament, I have seen the comp level unofficial tourneys. They were boring as hell, especially compared to other popular online games. PGI better do something before we have to sit through hours of laser peekaboo sessions.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 April 2016 - 04:59 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Kotev, on 06 April 2016 - 02:43 AM, said:

Who will name more complex and competitive game then MWO?

(must be same genre, not star craft etc.)

Complexity does not equal depth. We have at most a handful of tournament viable builds per weight class. Take those and the tactics you can do with them and that's where your depth ends, which isn't anywhere near what could be done with the huge number of variables that we have to work with.

[Bud Crue]

El Bandito, on 06 April 2016 - 04:56 AM, said:

PGI had lost so many whales/potential whales during 2013-2014, thanks to the IGP fiasco. BT fans are 10x more valuable to retain than a regular Steamie.

As for the tournament, I have seen the comp level unofficial tourneys. They were boring as hell, especially compared to other popular online games. PGI better do something before we have to sit through hours of laser peekaboo sessions.

If the tourney is about showing off the game as a whole as well as demonstrating the skill, the real skill that it takes to be good at the game as a whole -as opposed to merely showing a player's/team's ability to laser spam or build a super duper high alpha mechs- then it seems to me that the easiest way to do that is to have the matches be random.

Randomly selected stock build mechs for each player, on each team, and randomly selected maps for every match. Give players a minute or two to configure their weapons groups and the match begins.

Would be exciting and interesting to watch, and require the players and their teams to really know what the mechs are about and how to make use of them.

[Thunderbird Anthares]

now THAT, that would be interesting to see

[Crockdaddy]

Aresye, on 05 April 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

Ummmm...no.

To be fair, the bulk of thinking should have occurred before the match. The rest is experience, repetition, practice, and wisdom gained from past matches, past planning, past thinking. You will need to "think" in a match but that thinking should be based on experience and pre-planning (game theory and practice) so you can react very quickly. If you have to "think" in a traditional sense (meaning put some deep thought) at match time it's likely going to get rough unless the other guy makes a mistake. Over thinking is a problem at times during matches and we've definitely lost our fair share over thinking too.

[Revis Volek]

arivio, on 06 April 2016 - 02:41 AM, said:

So you should know it better
And yes, you can have an opinion, right or wrong.
And dont put words in my mouth i never said about NS. Feel free to tell them what you want




Nice rehtoric, but i never said that

oh come on now, just poking fun bud.

Stay classy over there in EU A and good luck.

[Almond Brown]

Satan n stuff, on 06 April 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

Complexity does not equal depth. We have at most a handful of tournament viable builds per weight class. Take those and the tactics you can do with them and that's where your depth ends, which isn't anywhere near what could be done with the huge number of variables that we have to work with.

Ever watch a StarCraft Tournament? Same GD thing. Maybe 2-3 viable builds across the whole spectrum. Paint drying is fun to watch as well...

If clicking a Mouse is considered Skillful, then MWO is as good as any of the others where clicking makes a mouse button makes you a Skilled competitor... LOL!

[Widowmaker1981]

Bud Crue, on 06 April 2016 - 05:31 AM, said:

If the tourney is about showing off the game as a whole as well as demonstrating the skill, the real skill that it takes to be good at the game as a whole -as opposed to merely showing a player's/team's ability to laser spam or build a super duper high alpha mechs- then it seems to me that the easiest way to do that is to have the matches be random.

Randomly selected stock build mechs for each player, on each team, and randomly selected maps for every match. Give players a minute or two to configure their weapons groups and the match begins.

Would be exciting and interesting to watch, and require the players and their teams to really know what the mechs are about and how to make use of them.

But would also be a complete lottery, unless each team got the same selection of mechs..

I still dont understand why mech building/selection is not considered one of the 'skills' that count. Wasn't choosing the right mechs for your dec. important in TT? Im pretty sure it was.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeah, and your not really showing off your credibility when you say drop deck composition is all about the most laser spam and the highest alphas.

Sorry, not how it works.

El Bandito, on 06 April 2016 - 04:56 AM, said:

PGI had lost so many whales/potential whales during 2013-2014, thanks to the IGP fiasco. BT fans are 10x more valuable to retain than a regular Steamie.

As for the tournament, I have seen the comp level unofficial tourneys. They were boring as hell, especially compared to other popular online games. PGI better do something before we have to sit through hours of laser peekaboo sessions.

Boring is a matter of opinion.

But if you want something more fast paced and less thought out maybe you could watch Call of Duty videos?

Crockdaddy, on 06 April 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

To be fair, the bulk of thinking should have occurred before the match. The rest is experience, repetition, practice, and wisdom gained from past matches, past planning, past thinking. You will need to "think" in a match but that thinking should be based on experience and pre-planning (game theory and practice) so you can react very quickly. If you have to "think" in a traditional sense (meaning put some deep thought) at match time it's likely going to get rough unless the other guy makes a mistake. Over thinking is a problem at times during matches and we've definitely lost our fair share over thinking too.

Well to be fair, there is definitely thought making the right call and positioning yourself well. Yes, it may come partly from experience, but there is thought involved.

[Mystere]

Bud Crue, on 06 April 2016 - 05:31 AM, said:

If the tourney is about showing off the game as a whole as well as demonstrating the skill, the real skill that it takes to be good at the game as a whole -as opposed to merely showing a player's/team's ability to laser spam or build a super duper high alpha mechs- then it seems to me that the easiest way to do that is to have the matches be random.

Randomly selected stock build mechs for each player, on each team, and randomly selected maps for every match. Give players a minute or two to configure their weapons groups and the match begins.

Would be exciting and interesting to watch, and require the players and their teams to really know what the mechs are about and how to make use of them.

I'd prefer a random set of mechs per team. A per-player assignment looks too excessive. Let the team determine which player gets which mech. This will show the team's ability to assign the proper role and mech on a per-player basis.

[Damia Savon]

Bishop Steiner, on 05 April 2016 - 05:38 PM, said:

Yes, best to advertise as the least skilled tournament ever......

But it's nice to see competitive players admit that the click a pixel, no hindrance, no immersion arcade shooter aiming they demand for MWO is not terribly skill dependant. Kudos, that.

Not like it was news to anyone besides those that think they are skilled.

Deathlike, on 05 April 2016 - 06:40 PM, said:

I hate to tell you that comp play is a little more than just aiming. There's a lot more decision making involved (the thinking man's part that is nearly non-existent in pub play or CW).

You mean the part like "shoot foxtrot in the right side torso?"

[Khobai]

Quote

Anyone in e-sports would tell you that every game has balance issues

yeah except most e-sports games are balanced within +/-5%

for example in starcraft2 one race never has more than 5% advantage over another race. So games are rarely if ever determined by race imbalance and almost always determined by player skill.

MWO isnt even balanced within 20%... IS vs Clan balance is completely wrong. Ballistic/Energy/Missile balance is equally bad. Long range vs brawling balance also poor.

The only reason the game can be even somewhat competitive is because EVERYONE USES THE SAME EXACT BUILDS. But that makes it extremely boring to spectate. No one wants to see a bunch of unskilled laser spam. Itd be like watching starcraft 2 if everyone only played zerg vs zerg 100% of the time. It would get old really fast.

Especially since skirmish is effectively the only gamemode and skirmish is extremely unexciting to watch because of the snowball/avalanche effect. One of the things that makes games like starcraft2 and dota exciting to spectate is that a player/team can come back from the cusp of losing and pull out a completely unexpected win. In MWO theres no real chance for the losing team to recover or create any kindve suspense with the potential for an upset. Once a team gets down 2-3 mechs the game is basically over. That makes for a boring esport.

To be successful as an esport, MWO needs to encourage more diverse weapon builds, and also needs a way better gamemode than skirmish.

Edited by Khobai, 06 April 2016 - 06:47 AM.