122 replies to this topic

[Davers]

Gyrok, on 13 April 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

Because those weapons are designed to compete with clans, and will by default be more balanced.

I guess you could sit back and pretend that weapons being closer by default is somehow worse...

TT is a game of attrition, where you seek to maximize your DPS and minimize your opponents' through superior movement and positioning. It has very little to do with MWO balance. Are you really saying that all the problems would be fixed if we just used TT values on everything?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Davers, on 13 April 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

TT is a game of attrition, where you seek to maximize your DPS and minimize your opponents' through superior movement and positioning. It has very little to do with MWO balance. Are you really saying that all the problems would be fixed if we just used TT values on everything?

the heat would be less an issue if we could only fire once every ten seconds (since the heat scale was based on that lol)

ofc that would make the alpha strike online so much worse lol

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 13 April 2016 - 08:03 PM.

[Gyrok]

Davers, on 13 April 2016 - 08:01 PM, said:

TT is a game of attrition, where you seek to maximize your DPS and minimize your opponents' through superior movement and positioning. It has very little to do with MWO balance. Are you really saying that all the problems would be fixed if we just used TT values on everything?

No, but because PGI derives their values in game from relative TT values. Weapons that are closer in TT will be closer in MWO.

Savvy?

[Davers]

Gyrok, on 13 April 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

No, but because PGI derives their values in game from relative TT values. Weapons that are closer in TT will be closer in MWO.

Savvy?

But don't you see many of those weapons would be direct replacements of existing weapons? Who would equip a CUAC20 when for 2 tons less, and 2 less critical slots, you can get a HAG20 with 1750 increase in projectile speed and double the optimal range? How is this making things more balanced? How is this keeping older weapons still relevant?

[Volthorne]

Gyrok, on 13 April 2016 - 06:56 PM, said:

Actually, without heat quirks, the ER versions will now run hotter than people are currently used to. Some will do it...probably larger mechs. However, lights and mediums will enjoy the better heat efficiency. Did I mention ALL energy quirks are going away here?

Except for weapon-specific quirks, the highest energy heat generation quirks currently are 25% (only a couple chassis get this), but the majority of 'Mechs are at the 10% mark. That's 3.6 heat, which is a lot closer to 4 than 3. I'm pretty sure that an extra 0.4 heat per laser to get the ER version isn't going to stop many players from trading in immediately. The only 'Mechs that will end up benefiting are the Light 'Mechs, and only the ones that are extremely tight on weight.

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See above, no more heat quirks mean the STD lasers will run like they did, the ER versions will be quite a bit warmer.

See above. Heat difference between ML/MPL now and proposed ERML stats is negligible.

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you could drop MPLs down to 250m and problem solved there...personally...if you want to nerf them, I am ok with them being more nerfed.

Or we could just leave the ranges alone for literally the same effect.

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Except that PGI makes 90% of their money from mechs. Meaning many more options will come into the game.

Weight and crits still prevent the majority of IS 'Mechs from running more than a couple ballistics, even if they have the weapon slots to do so.

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5 AC5 MAL is a terror though...and you are still looking at a sustained 17 DPS without jams at all.

17 DPS for all of about 10 seconds, and then it gets cut down to 10 because of heat. On top of that it still has no back-up weapons and only manages to carry 5 tons of ammo (it can carry more if you want to reduce the duration of your maximum and overall sustained DPS). Also it's still ridiculously slow. There's a reason you don't see it outside of competitive matches, and only rarely within them.

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What about current IS UAC5s? They are single projectile. You seem to be fine with those.

No, those need a burst-count increase to two shots. There's really no reason to NOT run UAC/5s in place of standard AC/5s, except for tonnage. The potential DPS increase is just too good to pass up most of the time. Literally the only reason I don't personally run them is because RNGesus hates me. If that weren't the case I would probably run them in place of all my AC/5s too.

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You clearly did not read my proposal at all if you think I kept IS mostly the same. I even outright buffed the small class laser damage across the board so they could actually see some relevance again.

Talking about structure buffs now. Keep up, it doesn't look good if you lag behind. The 35-40% flat "buff" changes literally nothing for a decent portion of the IS 'Mechs. However, as I mentioned there are a good number which currently DON'T have full-body structure quirks, and it's these ones which will end up with out-of-control durability. I previously mentioned the Griffin, which is already at the very least a decent 'Mech, and it has no structure quirks on its torsos. Other examples include Roflmen (all), Lolcusts (most), Firestarters (all), Enforcers (most), and Stalkers (all).

...You DID remember to factor in the upcoming quirkening 2: electric boogaloo that's happening alongside the resizing, right?

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So...if we put a MDD up against say...any quickdraw, or...maybe a grasshopper, or a TDR...you are completely confident in that outcome?

If the MDD pilot is remotely competent, yes. Such a shame I don't see more of them using the ballistic arms.

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IS is across the board OP right now. The only set of circumstances where they are not involves combat beyond 800m

Counterpoint: Dragons. Victors. The plethora of our other 'Mechs that never or very rarely get used.

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If you want proof, look at comp decks.

Counterpoint: "Comp" builds focus on abusing statisitical outliers. BK gets abused? Nerf iLPLs and the BK. Don't buff everything else to be on-par with the BK, because that's how power-creep occurs.

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Clearly you did not read it all.

To elaborate...in place of the current system with quirks.

BEFORE ANYTHING IS CHANGED, ALL QUIRKS ARE WIPED CLEAN FROM THE START. ALL BALLISTIC QUIRKS, ALL AGILITY QUIRKS, ALL ENERGY QUIRKS, ALL STRUCTURE QUIRKS, ALL SRM QUIRKS, AND ALL LRM QUIRKS.

So, what I'm hearing is that you want to reset all 'Mechs back to their default badness, throw in a bunch of new, mostly completely balance-breaking **** and blanket changes, and then see where the dice fall? And this is supposed to be a step forwards?

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Exactly, so why not buff small lasers? I have a proposal for making SHS relevant too, but that is buried on reddit, or in the forums here or both

Then buff SLs and SHS, and don't also buff SPLs! Jesus christ, is that so hard to do? It's like you've got a small crack in your wall, and the easy fix would be to go out to the store to get some plaster and paint, but instead you want to tear the whole wall out and put up a new one with nails and glue. You're making it way harder than it needs to be, or has any right to be.

[Karl Streiger]

Gyrok, on 13 April 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

No, but because PGI derives their values in game from relative TT values. Weapons that are closer in TT will be closer in MWO.

No - the weapon values of TT have to die..... they don't work in MWO
The first thing are the numbers... 2,5,20,30,40,9,3 what ever.... no numbers anymore.

The second is the accumulation controversy (place holder for a better name) as said the LPPC is a perfect example for it. As long as you have the hardpoints the smaller weapons are the ones you need.

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So, what I'm hearing is that you want to reset all 'Mechs back to their default badness, throw in a bunch of new, mostly completely balance-breaking **** and blanket changes, and then see where the dice fall? And this is supposed to be a step forwards?

Unlucky the quirks as they are don't help much to find a balance.
Quite the opposite just take the ER-PPC quirk for the TDR-9S with the upcomming changes the ERPPC would fire every 3sec and only generate ~11 heat with 1700m/s speed. How do you want balance such madness when for example the Summoner with its single ERPPC still have to pay 14heat and 1200m/s and 4sec cooldown.

I'm not able to track all those quirks in my charts - because i would have several dozen different PPC behaviours on several mechs - and i would bet my months wage on it that neither PGI has a chart that allows them to track all those changes.

So first quirks have to go,
second if quirks they should just be used to negate stuff like hardpoint numbers, geometry and maybe loadout
if you still need quirks after that - create quirk sets - say for a dozen rolls and just give each mech a roll set. So a ERPPC on a Vindicator would behave like a ERPPC on a Panther or on a Battlemaster 3M.

---

advice when creating weapon balance post. keep in mind why you want to create this special weapon.
and stuff like its simple supperior to stuff won't work, keep in mind wich consequences you will cause. Don't do the same mistakes FASA did. (there are some well made "non cannon" ACs in the sarna wiki.... look at the AC15 - and think about the Gauss.
Or remember closed beta when the Gauss had still 10 hit points, and afaik didn't explode

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Case for a timeline skip:

https://mwomercs.com/kodiak

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• Kodiak 3 This variant created by Clan Snow Raven in the mid-3060s turns the Kodiak into an anti-aircraft platform. Removing all but four of the arm-mounted medium lasers and reducing the number of heat sinks to fourteen freed up room for a pair of LB-X Autocannon/20s, three tons of ammo each, and an advanced targeting computer.^[3][9] BV (1.0) = 2,178^[10], BV (2.0) = 2,615^[11]

Note the part that says MID THIRTY SIXTIES
so......

/thread anyone?

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 14 April 2016 - 01:55 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

May Blake steady my Hand - time to fulfill his

Edited by Karl Streiger, 14 April 2016 - 01:58 AM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

I mean obviously PGI doesnt care about the timeline as theyre making mechs over ten years ahead of it with the Kodiak 3 so what was this argument about again?

lol

[kapusta11]

My 2 cents regarding proposed weapon stats:

No GH caps specified

Medium and Large X-Pulse lasers are worthless, the former is way too hot and the latter is basically a clan LPL with worse range. X-Pulse lasers are actually an upgraded regular pulse lasers, much like artemis and SRMs only without additional weight and crit cost. The upgrade should simply provide range increase for additional heat.

Why nerf IS LPL duration in absence of weapon quirks? It will generate 7 heat instead of 6.3 with 10% heat gen quirk and have .67 sec duration instead of .57 with 15% duartion quirk.

Heavy Small lasers seems a bit OP. Heavy Medium is ok. Heavy Large is garbage.

No mention of Rotary, Hypervelocity and Light ACs

LB-X ACs should use the same projectile spread algorithm SRMs use (their spread is fixed and is not increased as they travel farther away)

Heavy Gauss is unique in that it has damage fall off even in TT. In order to simulate that you need to set its base range to 180m and give it 6x fall off. Cooldown seems to be way too long as well.

Light Gauss seems mediocre, no projectile sync with other weapons and in order to get at least 30 damage you need to spend 42 tons (weapons +6t ammo)

HAGs might use some projectile count increase, bigger variants have much higher dps (no HAG40 cooldown specified though) but also fire additional projectile and have less projectile speed so they seem to be balanced against each other. Night Gyr would be able to carry 3x HAG20s with 7t of ammo, same burst DPS as with 3 UAC10 but less exposure and worse sustained DPS unless more than 1 UAC10 jamms.

STD, HE ATM and MRM velocity is way too low. Dynamic velocity is also a no go, how are you supposed to lead? I mean it's possible but the effort required to make it work could be better spent elsewhere.

PPCs: 30 FLD damage for 30 heat is a fair trade and is actually balanced hence Heavy PPCs and cERPPCs will be quite popular though the latter might be a bit OP for a 22t+ loadout (weapons + 10 additional DHS). Slow projectile speed means that they still can't be used at their optimal range effectively. Normal PPCs will be unsued because of Ghost Heat cap and no projectile sync with other weapons - read lack of raw damage and no, U/AC5s + PPCs combo is not good, it takes way to much tonnage. IS ERPPCs need to be synced with Gauss, otherwise it's 20 damage for 28 heat and poor velocity, why would I use them over Dual Gauss? And even then 2xERPPC + 1x Gauss generate 28 more heat for only 5 more damage compared to Dual Gauss loadout.

Compact Heatsinks and LFEs would be welcome.

Holy ****, 2 cents he says.

Edited by kapusta11, 14 April 2016 - 06:12 AM.

[Triordinant]

Imperius, on 12 April 2016 - 09:42 PM, said:

Go play Battletech by HBS comes out in a year, you'll be fun at their party!

You can count on it.

[Triordinant]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 14 April 2016 - 02:02 AM, said:

I mean obviously PGI doesnt care about the timeline as theyre making mechs over ten years ahead of it with the Kodiak 3 so what was this argument about again?

They put in the Kodiak 3 only because it uses 3053 or older tech. They don't care what year a particular 'mech is released but they said they'll make sure all its weapons and other tech are 3053 or older and it has variants that are pre-3053.

Edited by Triordinant, 14 April 2016 - 06:30 AM.

[Tordin]

The assaults should get more base structure and armor buff, to 55% maybe. They need to be THOUGH.

Otherwis, nice ideas

[Volthorne]

Karl Streiger, on 13 April 2016 - 11:06 PM, said:

Unlucky the quirks as they are don't help much to find a balance.
Quite the opposite just take the ER-PPC quirk for the TDR-9S with the upcomming changes the ERPPC would fire every 3sec and only generate ~11 heat with 1700m/s speed. How do you want balance such madness when for example the Summoner with its single ERPPC still have to pay 14heat and 1200m/s and 4sec cooldown.

Bad example. The suckonner actually also gets massive ERPPC quirks in it's right arm on the Prime, and a -10% energy heat quirk in its CT, regardless of chassis. On top of that, cERPPCs are also getting a 100m/s velocity buff, which puts the suckonner's peeps at 12.7 heat, 1690m/s velocity (same as TDR-9S), and on a 3.4s cooldown (left arm from the D). It can ALSO carry a targeting computer, which further buffs the velocity, putting it way out in front of pretty much every other 'Mech - IS or clam - as the defacto PPC boat.

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So first quirks have to go,
second if quirks they should just be used to negate stuff like hardpoint numbers, geometry and maybe loadout
if you still need quirks after that - create quirk sets - say for a dozen rolls and just give each mech a roll set. So a ERPPC on a Vindicator would behave like a ERPPC on a Panther or on a Battlemaster 3M.

I'm not a fan of blanket changes. While making PPCs generic across all 'Mechs and having "quirk sets" SOUNDS like a good idea, it completely ignores the particular circumstances of any given 'Mech: Battlemasters and other heavies/assaults generally don't get high negative heat generation quirks because they can fit big engines and lots and lots of heatsinks, and they can usually mount 6 or more weapons total. Vindicators and Panthers on the other hand, namely the VND-1AA and PNT-10K have almost no weapon hardpoints and can't run more than one or two ER/PPCs due to either crits, tonnage, or needing to stuff themselves almost exclusively full of heatsinks even after their big heat generation quirks come into play. Taking away those quirks means that you're essentially making those 'Mechs unplayable.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Triordinant, on 14 April 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:

They put in the Kodiak 3 only because it uses 3053 or older tech. They don't care what year a particular 'mech is released but they said they'll make sure all its weapons and other tech are 3053 or older and it has variants that are pre-3053.

a variant make in the mid sixties is pre 5053? With a Tardis or a DeLorean Im assuming?

[Gyrok]

Davers, on 13 April 2016 - 09:02 PM, said:

But don't you see many of those weapons would be direct replacements of existing weapons? Who would equip a CUAC20 when for 2 tons less, and 2 less critical slots, you can get a HAG20 with 1750 increase in projectile speed and double the optimal range? How is this making things more balanced? How is this keeping older weapons still relevant?

1.) HAG still explodes when crit.

2.) Cooldown time

3.) Double taps

[Gyrok]

Volthorne, on 13 April 2016 - 09:34 PM, said:

Except for weapon-specific quirks, the highest energy heat generation quirks currently are 25% (only a couple chassis get this), but the majority of 'Mechs are at the 10% mark. That's 3.6 heat, which is a lot closer to 4 than 3. I'm pretty sure that an extra 0.4 heat per laser to get the ER version isn't going to stop many players from trading in immediately. The only 'Mechs that will end up benefiting are the Light 'Mechs, and only the ones that are extremely tight on weight.

Buffing light mechs is a bad thing? I am confused...

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See above. Heat difference between ML/MPL now and proposed ERML stats is negligible.

True, however...if they want to run any XPLs to pick up additional range on their other laser vomit weapons...that will more than offset the heat difference between now and after these changes.

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Or we could just leave the ranges alone for literally the same effect.

You could stop trolling this thread too, but it looks like neither is going to happen...so...

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Weight and crits still prevent the majority of IS 'Mechs from running more than a couple ballistics, even if they have the weapon slots to do so.

Really? Like the 2AC5 + AC2 Shadowhawk at 55 tons with crazy ballistic quirks? Or the plethora of mechs that can run 3 UAC5s/AC5s or even 4 AC2s?

You are being very myopic about all this.

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17 DPS for all of about 10 seconds, and then it gets cut down to 10 because of heat. On top of that it still has no back-up weapons and only manages to carry 5 tons of ammo (it can carry more if you want to reduce the duration of your maximum and overall sustained DPS). Also it's still ridiculously slow. There's a reason you don't see it outside of competitive matches, and only rarely within them.

Have you played the 5 AC5 MAL? I have, and I have never overheated...ever...

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No, those need a burst-count increase to two shots. There's really no reason to NOT run UAC/5s in place of standard AC/5s, except for tonnage. The potential DPS increase is just too good to pass up most of the time. Literally the only reason I don't personally run them is because RNGesus hates me. If that weren't the case I would probably run them in place of all my AC/5s too.

Jamming is a thing...as you point out. There are people who run STD Clan ACs, and they even cost an extra crit slot over UACs because LBX sizing.

So...?

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Talking about structure buffs now. Keep up, it doesn't look good if you lag behind. The 35-40% flat "buff" changes literally nothing for a decent portion of the IS 'Mechs. However, as I mentioned there are a good number which currently DON'T have full-body structure quirks, and it's these ones which will end up with out-of-control durability. I previously mentioned the Griffin, which is already at the very least a decent 'Mech, and it has no structure quirks on its torsos. Other examples include Roflmen (all), Lolcusts (most), Firestarters (all), Enforcers (most), and Stalkers (all).

The GRF-3M says hello. You should brush up on this stuff before you come to play...makes the game better for everyone when the knowledge is equal. You are clearly behind the curve here...

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...You DID remember to factor in the upcoming quirkening 2: electric boogaloo that's happening alongside the resizing, right?

More quirks? I want to see LESS quirks. Hence the point of this.

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If the MDD pilot is remotely competent, yes. Such a shame I don't see more of them using the ballistic arms.

You cannot be serious...a QKD would eat a MDD as a snack before breakfast and not think twice about it. What tier are you in again?

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Counterpoint: Dragons. Victors. The plethora of our other 'Mechs that never or very rarely get used.

So buffing their structure and agility is a terrible thing I suppose?

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Counterpoint: "Comp" builds focus on abusing statisitical outliers. BK gets abused? Nerf iLPLs and the BK. Don't buff everything else to be on-par with the BK, because that's how power-creep occurs.

That is not what this is doing at all. YOU REALLY SHOULD READ THE POST AND PAY ATTENTION.

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So, what I'm hearing is that you want to reset all 'Mechs back to their default badness, throw in a bunch of new, mostly completely balance-breaking **** and blanket changes, and then see where the dice fall? And this is supposed to be a step forwards?

What part of this will replace quirks with new baseline values that will be equal across the range of variants for any given mech are you not understanding?

Why should 1 QKD get different agility/structure quirks than another? Why should 1 BLR have structure buffs to torsos but no others? Why should some hunchbacks have more structure/agility quirks than others?

There is no reason. This proposal makes ALL variants of a given chassis have equally viable base numbers. How are you missing that? I really do not understand how that just flew over your head through all this so far.

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Then buff SLs and SHS, and don't also buff SPLs! Jesus christ, is that so hard to do? It's like you've got a small crack in your wall, and the easy fix would be to go out to the store to get some plaster and paint, but instead you want to tear the whole wall out and put up a new one with nails and glue. You're making it way harder than it needs to be, or has any right to be.

The ONLY person making this difficult is telling me that I am?

[Gyrok]

Volthorne, on 14 April 2016 - 10:10 AM, said:

Bad example. The suckonner actually also gets massive ERPPC quirks in it's right arm on the Prime, and a -10% energy heat quirk in its CT, regardless of chassis. On top of that, cERPPCs are also getting a 100m/s velocity buff, which puts the suckonner's peeps at 12.7 heat, 1690m/s velocity (same as TDR-9S), and on a 3.4s cooldown (left arm from the D). It can ALSO carry a targeting computer, which further buffs the velocity, putting it way out in front of pretty much every other 'Mech - IS or clam - as the defacto PPC boat.

Too bad it can only bring 2 and nothing else...especially with a TC.

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I'm not a fan of blanket changes. While making PPCs generic across all 'Mechs and having "quirk sets" SOUNDS like a good idea, it completely ignores the particular circumstances of any given 'Mech: Battlemasters and other heavies/assaults generally don't get high negative heat generation quirks because they can fit big engines and lots and lots of heatsinks, and they can usually mount 6 or more weapons total. Vindicators and Panthers on the other hand, namely the VND-1AA and PNT-10K have almost no weapon hardpoints and can't run more than one or two ER/PPCs due to either crits, tonnage, or needing to stuff themselves almost exclusively full of heatsinks even after their big heat generation quirks come into play. Taking away those quirks means that you're essentially making those 'Mechs unplayable.

There are things like the snubnose PPC and Light PPC that those mechs could take advantage of to gain better heat efficiency with weapons, or similar/greater effectiveness.

Not to mention that Compact Heatsinks under this proposal allows IS mechs to use much less space for heatsinks.

[Davers]

Gyrok, on 14 April 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

1.) HAG still explodes when crit.

2.) Cooldown time

3.) Double taps

1. And so does gauss, but it is still considered a great weapon, especially with no charge up time.

2. Do you really think the extra half second of cool down makes up for more than double the range and the incredible accuracy of 2400ms?

3. It doesn't jam either.

Seriously, you don't see this as a 'must have' weapon?

[Gyrok]

Davers, on 14 April 2016 - 05:25 PM, said:

1. And so does gauss, but it is still considered a great weapon, especially with no charge up time.

2. Do you really think the extra half second of cool down makes up for more than double the range and the incredible accuracy of 2400ms?

3. It doesn't jam either.

Seriously, you don't see this as a 'must have' weapon?

I see it as being good...but you are forgetting that it is 3 projectiles. The only reason I put the velocity where I did was so that the least potent HAG would have a fair chance of being able to land 3 hits on a target at any kind of range.

The HAG30 is 4 projectiles with 80% of the velocity, and the HAG40 is 5 projectiles with 60% of the velocity.

You certainly do not want a 40 damage weapon firing a burst that can neuter a mech at ~700m...right?

A 20 damage weapon at least gives someone a way off a chance to twist a bit and also affords the chance that some of the burst might not connect, even if part of it does.

Make more sense now?