113 replies to this topic

[SteelBruiser]

Ghogiel, on 26 April 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:

And those bad team mates only have one job. Be meat shields.

If a light is out scouting, sniping or harrassing, you are by no means their meat shield. They generally understand that they're pretty much on their own. Besides they really get excited if they manage to get enemy mechs to chase the squirrel. It's then up to you big boys and girls to then push in and force those mechs to regret turning their backs on you. It's a tactic I've watched fellow team mates fall for way too often.

[SteelBruiser]

Rampage, on 26 April 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

I almost always walk with the fatties with my ECM equipped HBRs. I keep them under cover as much as possible as we approach the battlefield. Imagine my chagrin when the first thing they do upon getting there is to fan out, walk up and park themselves on top of a ridge for all the world to see or walk out in the middle of a wide open plain with no cover for either of us. I have even seen them try to solo flank an enemy. Do I go with them to try to cover them from LRMs or Lights thus also putting myself in jeopardy? Or do I watch them go and try to pick off or dissuade the Lights that I see closing in on them from range?


Admittedly, I play with and against Tier 3, 4 and 5 players. I sometimes make some boneheaded decisions too but REALLY? You are going to solo flank with a Dire Wolf or King Crab with 12 enemy Mechs still on the field? UGH!

I'm still Tier 5 but generally, when I'm running a light or medium, I also escort the big guys to the main line, whether I have ECM or not. Primarily to help fend off the lights that love ganging up on fatties. After that I will hang near them until I see which way the battle is rolling and make decisions from there.

[Kubernetes]

Pjwned, on 26 April 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

That would depend on the positioning of the mechs in question there. If you're implying that the streakcrow was right in front of other teammates and it was still ignored then your analogy is terrible because that would never happen and is not comparable to people crying about their ECM crutch not being right under them at all times.

It's analogous in that it's an example of teammates refusing to do simple things to help out other teammates and thereby contribute to victory.

I personally love mediums best and love to be on the leading edge of a flank, but if my assault lance is straggling and I see an Oxide wolfpack headed their way, I go back to help. It's not what I want to do, but it's the best thing to do if I want to win.

But whatever, do your own thing. Just don't cry when you get steamrolled because your assault lance got buried in the opening minutes.

[Kubernetes]

Ghogiel, on 26 April 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

I'd realise I was in a match filled with T4 scrubs. On both teams.

Yeah, sure. I see LRMs in T1 matches all the time, and Narc increasingly so. Heck, I'm starting to see Narc in FW. There are some stupidly talented light Narcers out there, and their activity can have a huge impact on a match or a wave. Sheesh, I can't believe I'm getting lectured by sub-T1s to git gud. I don't expect anyone to "be a crutch," but I would prefer my teammates to contribute to team victory. But again, whatevs, do your own thing.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Ghogiel, on 26 April 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

I'd realise I was in a match filled with T4 scrubs. On both teams.

Insulting people based on Tier: Check.
Not showing his own: Check

[Pjwned]

Kubernetes, on 26 April 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

It's analogous in that it's an example of teammates refusing to do simple things to help out other teammates and thereby contribute to victory.

Okay, but it's not analogous in that people expect you to stand next to them just because they stand out in the open, they don't bring AMS, they bring a slow mech, they don't bring their own ECM, etc etc while everybody else who isn't a scrublord baddie crutchbaby manages without ECM because they don't play like bads.

In other words, you have to babysit somebody else because they need a crutch while in your crappy analogy you apparently have people ignoring a target right in front of them for no good reason.

Quote

I personally love mediums best and love to be on the leading edge of a flank, but if my assault lance is straggling and I see an Oxide wolfpack headed their way, I go back to help. It's not what I want to do, but it's the best thing to do if I want to win.

That's different because you're actually engaging the enemy that way (in a not suicidal move), so unless you somehow see a much higher priority target then what else would you do in that situation besides go back and help? I guess if your targets that you were about to flank actually were a higher priority then yeah it would be a bad move to help your assault lance, but otherwise go back and help if you need to in that situation.

Let's think about this in another way, if that wolfpack attacking the assault lance consisted of a bunch of cheetahs with ECM, would they be doing a bad job because they weren't being an ECM crutch for their scrublord teammates?

Quote

But whatever, do your own thing. Just don't cry when you get steamrolled because your assault lance got buried in the opening minutes.

If it's because they got rained on by LRMs due to being bad then there wasn't much hope anyways.

Edited by Pjwned, 26 April 2016 - 12:46 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 26 April 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

Insulting people based on Tier: Check.
Not showing his own: Check

How can people not be max T1 lolz

[Kubernetes]

Pjwned, on 26 April 2016 - 12:35 PM, said:

In other words, you have to babysit somebody else because they need a crutch while in your crappy analogy you apparently have people ignoring a target right in front of them for no good reason.

You don't need to do anything. But you should be thinking about how to help your team win. You can scoff at the morans who brought slow assaults, but I prefer to keep them alive so that they can mow down the enemy with their firepower.

Quote

If it's because they got rained on by LRMs due to being bad then there wasn't much hope anyways.

You can't be serious. Look at things in context. Everything is situational. Even the best assault pilots get caught out on some maps. Looking down your nose at "bads who brought slow mechs" doesn't help you win matches.

[cazidin]

Yes. How dare they demand that I, a member of a lance of 12 other players, support my team with the equipment that I always choose to bring and aid them against the enemy! This isn't a team game! I shall do as I wish, even if my strategy is to boldly flank the entire enemy lance and ignore my own team!

[Pjwned]

Kubernetes, on 26 April 2016 - 02:30 PM, said:

You don't need to do anything. But you should be thinking about how to help your team win. You can scoff at the morans who brought slow assaults, but I prefer to keep them alive so that they can mow down the enemy with their firepower.

And my point is they should be thinking about how to not lose without their ECM crutch teammate babysitting them the entire time.

Quote

You can't be serious. Look at things in context. Everything is situational. Even the best assault pilots get caught out on some maps. Looking down your nose at "bads who brought slow mechs" doesn't help you win matches.

Even in the opening minutes of the game like you were saying? That is just being bad, period, and even after that point it's still the assault pilot being bad for getting rained on the vast majority of the time; note that simply taking some damage from LRMs and getting rained on until you die (or are crippled badly) are 2 different situations, the former being one where bad play is significantly less likely.

Edited by Pjwned, 26 April 2016 - 02:46 PM.

[TLBFestus]

Wow, in general the OP is getting bashed pretty good for his opinion.

I'm gonna stick up for him, a bit, and remind everyone that the game does NOT reward a player for keeping his team mates under ECM cover, not in any way significant anyhow.

It's a thankless task to act as escort for the fatties or other mechs without ECM. You stay with them, you help protect them from LRM rain, and they reap the rewards for being around to dish out damage.

If you are lucky, you get a rare, "Thanks for the ECM coverage" and you generally end up scoring very little comparatively. The game doesn't reward sacrifice like that, it rewards for damage dealt. Now if they gave unde significant ECM coverage bonuses, I'd gladly stand around helping out,......

[Void Angel]

Tarogato, on 26 April 2016 - 04:03 AM, said:

When he is the only ECM on the team, what ever would you do it he had incidentally chosen to bring, say.... a non-ECM mech instead? "Nobody has any ECM on my team, we're all doomed!"

That is exactly what they say. Almost verbatim.

What amuses me here is that some of the OP's detractors are scolding him for taking the "easy way" by using ECM behind enemy lines, and some are excoriating him for not providing "vital" ECM coverage to the team. Sometimes this is being done by the same person. Others expect the ECM 'mech to magic himself across the battlefield on a contingency basis to help with LRMs. Maybe I'm just bitter, but it seems to me that these are the same sort of people who used to tell me "Mana Tide Saves Raids."

In reality, that ECM 'mech may be the only 'mech that can scout without taking significant harassing fire. Any time he pokes his head out of cover, any enemy who happens to be glancing in his general direction will get a ping and a target icon; an ECM 'mech doesn't have that problem, and can be much more effective in scouting without being immediately suppressed. An LRM 'mech, on the other hand, needs a spotter, and is countered by cover; in most cases, even the slowest of 'mechs can choose an LRM-unfriendly route. Having a scout actually warning them of enemy movement can help immensely. Flanking maneuvers operate in a similar vein. If the enemy team doesn't get a giant sign over your head, and possibly your chassis identification, just for looking in your general direction, surprising them gets a whole lot easier.

No course of action is cookie-cutter perfect. You might run into a Skillcrow who's running counter-recon; the enemy LRM boat (or his spotter) may have TAG. If the Assaults spawn in a tough spot and have to cross open ground, it may be appropriate to delay scouting for a while - but at the end of the day, ECM 'mechs can use their ECM in more than one way. An ECM-equipped Medium or Heavy with enough movement and firepower can flank. A Light with ECM, especially, should scout - that 'mech is the only 'mech that can do the job and escape retaliation without being mercilessly whittled down as soon as he achieves line of sight.

[Astrocanis]

Void Angel, on 26 April 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

That is exactly what they say. Almost verbatim.

What amuses me here is that some of the OP's detractors are scolding him for taking the "easy way" by using ECM behind enemy lines, and some are excoriating him for not providing "vital" ECM coverage to the team. Sometimes this is being done by the same person. Others expect the ECM 'mech to magic himself across the battlefield on a contingency basis to help with LRMs. Maybe I'm just bitter, but it seems to me that these are the same sort of people who used to tell me "Mana Tide Saves Raids."

In reality, that ECM 'mech may be the only 'mech that can scout without taking significant harassing fire. Any time he pokes his head out of cover, any enemy who happens to be glancing in his general direction will get a ping and a target icon; an ECM 'mech doesn't have that problem, and can be much more effective in scouting without being immediately suppressed. An LRM 'mech, on the other hand, needs a spotter, and is countered by cover; in most cases, even the slowest of 'mechs can choose an LRM-unfriendly route. Having a scout actually warning them of enemy movement can help immensely. Flanking maneuvers operate in a similar vein. If the enemy team doesn't get a giant sign over your head, and possibly your chassis identification, just for looking in your general direction, surprising them gets a whole lot easier.

No course of action is cookie-cutter perfect. You might run into a Skillcrow who's running counter-recon; the enemy LRM boat (or his spotter) may have TAG. If the Assaults spawn in a tough spot and have to cross open ground, it may be appropriate to delay scouting for a while - but at the end of the day, ECM 'mechs can use their ECM in more than one way. An ECM-equipped Medium or Heavy with enough movement and firepower can flank. A Light with ECM, especially, should scout - that 'mech is the only 'mech that can do the job and escape retaliation without being mercilessly whittled down as soon as he achieves line of sight.

Mana Tide DID save raids. And before that, it was Innervate. (31 points - what a waste )

[Deathlike]

Void Angel, on 26 April 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

That is exactly what they say. Almost verbatim.

What amuses me here is that some of the OP's detractors are scolding him for taking the "easy way" by using ECM behind enemy lines, and some are excoriating him for not providing "vital" ECM coverage to the team. Sometimes this is being done by the same person. Others expect the ECM 'mech to magic himself across the battlefield on a contingency basis to help with LRMs. Maybe I'm just bitter, but it seems to me that these are the same sort of people who used to tell me "Mana Tide Saves Raids."

In reality, that ECM 'mech may be the only 'mech that can scout without taking significant harassing fire. Any time he pokes his head out of cover, any enemy who happens to be glancing in his general direction will get a ping and a target icon; an ECM 'mech doesn't have that problem, and can be much more effective in scouting without being immediately suppressed. An LRM 'mech, on the other hand, needs a spotter, and is countered by cover; in most cases, even the slowest of 'mechs can choose an LRM-unfriendly route. Having a scout actually warning them of enemy movement can help immensely. Flanking maneuvers operate in a similar vein. If the enemy team doesn't get a giant sign over your head, and possibly your chassis identification, just for looking in your general direction, surprising them gets a whole lot easier.

No course of action is cookie-cutter perfect. You might run into a Skillcrow who's running counter-recon; the enemy LRM boat (or his spotter) may have TAG. If the Assaults spawn in a tough spot and have to cross open ground, it may be appropriate to delay scouting for a while - but at the end of the day, ECM 'mechs can use their ECM in more than one way. An ECM-equipped Medium or Heavy with enough movement and firepower can flank. A Light with ECM, especially, should scout - that 'mech is the only 'mech that can do the job and escape retaliation without being mercilessly whittled down as soon as he achieves line of sight.

The thing about that is that people think that it's some sort of consideration to use ECM as a crutch. Players that rely more on their eyes/vision of the battlefield instead of their radar are more likely to spot and retaliate vs ECM-equipped targets. For regular play, you have a slight edge on being identified more slowly (lots of people are bad at recognizing ECM in use), but yet as soon as these people make the same mistakes that they've been used to w/o ECM (like walking in the middle of the open ground w/o cover in sight) they complain.

ECM is still useful, but some people are overly reliant on it that they don't realize what they are doing wrong. I'm not saying ECM users shouldn't be helpful, but 90m literally requires more deathballing to occur (for better or for worse) and at times it is unrealistic to get ideal coverage from an Atlas D-DC.. or a Spider-5D/Arctic Cheetah for that matter.

I just think these days people are setting some unrealistic expectations. There are too many errors people make with and w/o ECM and it would be nice if people understood the benefits and limits instead of relying on it exclusively.

However, I don't remember any level of ECM complaining outside of those that get Lurmed to death...

[Thunder Child]

At the end of the day, an ECM Light/Medium has to be the most versatile player in the match (not so much ECM Heavies and Assaults, because they usually just stick with the Blob).

The reason for this is because they need to float between Hitting the Enemy in his soft squishy bits, and covering the team when they are trying to form a push or get caught in the open (it shouldn't happen, but sometimes it does).
As a Fast ECM, it is your Job to know when to be offensive, and when to be defensive, especially if you are the only ECM on the team.

BUT, it is also the job of your team-mates to protect your ***. If you come rushing back with a gaggle of Light-Hunters, then your team should prioritise scraping them off, so that you can get back to covering/harassing.

Unless you're in something that is quirked out the wazoo for it, you should not be ECM Sniping. There are variants with MUCH better quirks suited to that role. And if you are intending to be a Distraction Flanker/Harasser, then you actually WANT the enemy to be able to see you, because then they will turn to chase the squirrel. If they CAN'T see you, they'll just assume it was friendly fire / Derp Raven, and go back to murdering your front line.

Just my humble opinion, of course.

Also, at Bishop. HBK-4G Surprise Flanker is BEST Flanker.

[Void Angel]

Of course you need to be flexible; you should strive to know what's happening on the battlefield - and to know what to do about it. Just by being a Light or fast Medium in the first place, you are hands-down the most tactically flexible unit type on the field, and if you're not using that flexibility to its fullest, you're not getting the most out of your 'mech. This is why you should be scouting with your ECM Light unless there is a critical need elsewhere or you have a surfeit of scouts: the best use of your flexibility is doing what needs to be done that no one else can do. So as a general rule, Be Their Eyes; the people who are insisting that camping in the group providing ECM should be your job don't understand the tactics. I think we generally agree here.

A few quibbles, however: a flanker does not want to be seen. He wants to murder as much of the enemy team as possible before they know he's there, weakening the enemy at medium to long distances, and killing them outright at close range. Similarly, a harassing Light or even Medium is taking advantage of the fact that players hate taking shots in the back armor, or not being damaged when they are already behind cover. That being said, I'm always sad when a player takes a perfectly good Light 'mech and uses it to poke from long range - I've seen Spiders cripple their speed and armor to put two ER Large Lasers on their arm...

Astrocanis, on 26 April 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

Mana Tide DID save raids. And before that, it was Innervate. (31 points - what a waste )

Mana Tide did not save raids, not in vanilla WoW, where that saying was in vogue - it was a level 40 Major Mana potion for one group. People thought it saved raids because it could pull out a marginal defeat, but it would have been better to have simply brought along a Priest - who would have regenerated more mana during the 5-minute cooldown than the entire benefit of Mana Tide. I used to use the talent twice in long fights by front-loading it as soon as none of the mana regen would be wasted - and aside from occasionally yelling at me because I still had 10 seconds left on the cooldown when they called for it, they never even noticed. Weakest fracking 31-point talent in the game, yet it shackled me into Resto... But I think we're hijacking the thread at this point.

Edited by Void Angel, 26 April 2016 - 04:43 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Just win or do decently on your team and no one gets mad.

You never see people angry at the Arctic Cheetah that broke off from the formation and took out 3 LRM boats behind enemy lines, but you do see people angry at the Spider that ran off on some joyride and occasionally fired a large laser in the enemy's general direction.

Better yet getting behind enemy lines with an Assault and taking out half their team gets a little praise at least, ECM or not.

[Trauglodyte]

hutzlibu, on 26 April 2016 - 02:05 AM, said:

I only pilot ECM-Builds - because I really enjoy flanking and stealth attacks behind the enemy lines ... and I am a little bit annoyed by people, who DEMAND I should stay with the flock and provide cover for them.
Sure, ECM cover for the main group is nice and usefull for the team - but so are constant attacks in the back of the enemy shattering their formation and bringing confusion to them ... and therefore opening opportunities for a crushing rush for the main group (if they pay attention to the map).
So, if you really want ECM Cover: equip your own, or ask friends to bring some, who enjoy staying with the mass. (I sometimes, do, too)
But if you demand it from people like me, with not even a ¨please¨, like you have a right to do so ... you can be sure, no one wil listen to you ... and all you will achieve is flaming.
Thank you, for your attention ...

SO, what you're saying is that you are an extremely bad player because you're using ECM as MW:O's version of the Stealth Suite, aka the Jesusbox, and refuse to do the one thing that makes one team better than the other - use team coordination? I'm sorry that you play like one of the many selfish douchebags that run around in <insert ECM Light mech> thinking that packing in a couple of ER Large Lasers while you poorly position yourself and, sometimes, put up good damage game when you could be just as successful being with your team and assisting them so that they live longer and, thusly, do more damage. You're absolutely right. Thank you for coming to the internet and correctly the follies of my game play.

[Pjwned]

Trauglodyte, on 26 April 2016 - 05:42 PM, said:

SO, what you're saying is that you are an extremely bad player because you're using ECM as MW:O's version of the Stealth Suite, aka the Jesusbox, and refuse to do the one thing that makes one team better than the other - use team coordination? I'm sorry that you play like one of the many selfish douchebags that run around in <insert ECM Light mech> thinking that packing in a couple of ER Large Lasers while you poorly position yourself and, sometimes, put up good damage game when you could be just as successful being with your team and assisting them so that they live longer and, thusly, do more damage. You're absolutely right. Thank you for coming to the internet and correctly the follies of my game play.

If the ECM pilot is bad for using ECM, then the other people who rely on ECM as a crutch are even worse.

Not that ECM crutchlords weren't already clearly established as baddie scrubs, but you need to look in the mirror if that's what you think.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

I would if it were regular equipment instead of locked to certain mech variants. Till then, get used to it