141 replies to this topic

[DerMaulwurf]

Ghogiel, on 27 April 2016 - 07:08 AM, said:

That would remove all lasers beside LPL/Med/SMPL and completely remove any viability of those weapons from the game.

600m and under laser vomit and brawling is already the dominate meta lol

I agree. And I don't understand how anybody could get the idea to nerf the PPC while keeping the LPL as it is.

[IQcreditscore]

There are great, good, mediocre,bad, and awful players in all games. Once the rating metric is known and what player metric the rating metric favors, players adapt. Great, good, and mediocre players will all favor that metric above all others. When damage is the meta it boils down to favorable trades for damage. Range becomes the flavor if ranged weaponry is effective at all. It can become a cover for good and mediocre players to make the "great' level in the metric. It confuses the playerbase and the matchmaker when it comes to defining who is good or great.

That other game I just quit became a meta of redlining sniping and using everyone else as spotters or meatshields while the endgame content became wrecked for the "everyone is special" crowd. Much higher population game but this game offers a huge endgame (with albeit no tangible reward), but is an interesting new flavor for myself.

Too many fatal funnels or game modes to make others have to engage at ranges less than gauss rifle max, but nerfing long range beyond usable parameters will make the game a close range campfest. No one will want to turn the corner into the 12 50 point alpha builds. So everyone sits. You don't want that.

It's not a bad game as it is although ghost heat is pretty silly. Also the fact that a huge advance in technology and the inability to really really zoom in on targets (but it's for balance reasons so I'll let it go). I'm pretty certain that my current builds and way I use them are not meta, but it seems to work and bars keep filling towards the next tiers. I have tried the vomit builds but go for all arounders that do their own spotting, can standoff range peck, while being brawly. Vision, speed, with a minor in alpha will almost always win against super alpha builds unless you get boxed in. Vomit builds are fun but generally too one dimensional unless you push their dimension aggressively and continuously.

The tutorials are pretty meh, tier 5 is a festival of really bad, while at least tier 4 has some ability to figure out what the game mode entails to win. Tier 3 is more standoffish and people seem to be willing to sit back in winnable games to keep their mech and inflate their damage. I can only hope tier 2 and 1 are different.........

Edited by FLINTCOIN, 27 April 2016 - 08:13 AM.

[Jazzbandit1313]

Ok, so from what I'm hearing, the opposition to my argument mostly says this:

1. You're bad get better
2. Start bringing meta builds or die
3. If you don't adapt to the higher tier style of play, it's your fault.

While these are all valid points, they mostly revolve around weapon balance being the way it is. As tiers go up, people want to get better, so they start using the weapons that are inherently better in the game, pointing out many weaknesses and strengths in weapon balance, of which there should be a low amount of if weapon balance is done right.

Take Counter Strike for example. Do you ever see a 5 man AWP team because the gun is a one hit? No, because there are very well developed weapon balances in place that usually make the AWP a glass cannon (Exceptions being a few pro AWPers that make the gun look like an admin weapon; KennyS, Guardina, JW). There are far better team comps that encourage mixed gun buys; Usually 1 AWPer, 2-3 riflemen, and 1 SMG/Pistol/scout role player.

This imbalance wouldn't be so bad in MWO if only some people used the peekaboo meta builds and playstyle. Problem is, as I've stated many times, the higher the tier, the higher concentration of peekaboo, high alpha builds and gameplay that 1. suck to play against, and 2. highlight the weapon imbalances in MWO right now. Hand in hand with map design, there is no possible way to reach the sniper/peekaboo enemy without losing some large portion of your armor on most maps. And when you do reach them, as a team push or solo, the meta builds still dominate at close range, given that there is almost no penalty for using long range weapons at incredibly short range due to the way convergence 'works' and the high alpha build style of these players. (Aside from PPC's and LRM's under 90m and 180m respectively)

Edited by Jazzbandit1313, 27 April 2016 - 08:18 AM.

[SplashDown]

this is why i do my best to stay away from the tier-1 or 2 meta dead heads as i call them cuz they have no imagination at all..and are just boring players.
So i play quick play to level new mechs and have fun...and with 12 random players....and when i need to lose i group up with me friends and we do random funny stuff in group que

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 27 April 2016 - 07:48 AM, said:

No, because its been used since before the MSI tournament, basically once EmP used it in a match, all other units followed suit in trying it out and it is just now trickling down to lower tiers, or at least that specific build. UACs really never left PUG queue and only increased in usage after the re-balance. This myth that all this game revolves around is laser vomit stopped being true after the re-balance, this forum just seems slow to catch on.

I agree. I just think its funny how if someone who never played the game tried to form a mental image of how things were like by the posts of some people on the forums, they would think that 99.9% of the builds used in game were laser vomit and everyone, everywhere in the whole wide world were drowning in laser vomit and needed to be rescued as if it were some major humanitarian crisis.

Sorry about that.

Ghogiel, on 27 April 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

if you only nerf ER/LL/PPCs, you just make the current meta even better, which is to say lpl/ med will have no long range counter.

Besides the AC5 MAL, dakka isn't on a break because people got bored.

I forgot about LPL's.

Nerfing the inner sphere LPL from 365 m to 270-300 m (ac20) range with a slower recharge might be in order.

Comparing the IS LPL to the IS AC20, the LPL might be a bit too strong -- advantages in range, no ammo requirements, high mounted hardpoints.

IS LPL weighs 7 tons. AC20 with 2 tons ammo would weigh 14 tons.

Roughly one might say the IS LPL weighs about half as much as an AC20 (with ac20 equipped) deals more than 50% damage and has a greater range. So really 2 IS LPL's (equal to a single AC20 with only 2 tons ammo) would be superior to an AC-20 in almost every way except for pinpoint damage. Given that the LPL doesn't have a projectile speed (with the ac20's projectile being ridiculously slow) the LPL is superior in practically every way imaginable.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 27 April 2016 - 08:32 AM.

[El Bandito]

Jazzbandit1313, on 27 April 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Ok, so from what I'm hearing, the opposition to my argument mostly says this:

1. You're bad get better
2. Start bringing meta builds or die
3. If you don't adapt to the higher tier style of play, it's your fault.

While these are all valid points, they mostly revolve around weapon balance being the way it is. As tiers go up, people want to get better, so they start using the weapons that are inherently better in the game, pointing out many weaknesses and strengths in weapon balance, of which there should be a low amount of if weapon balance is done right.

Take Counter Strike for example. Do you ever see a 5 man AWP team because the gun is a one hit? No, because there are very well developed weapon balances in place that usually make the AWP a glass cannon (Exceptions being a few pro AWPers that make the gun look like an admin weapon; KennyS, Guardina, JW). There are far better team comps that encourage mixed gun buys; Usually 1 AWPer, 2-3 riflemen, and 1 SMG/Pistol/scout role player.

The difference here is that you want to play with only shotgun against AWP + Rifles, in all matches. You need to get rid of the shotgun mate, or open a new account in noob bracket where shotties can carry games. Russ already mentioned that he is aware of big pin-point alphas and is working on the energy draw system.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 April 2016 - 08:28 AM.

[Jazzbandit1313]

El Bandito, on 27 April 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

The difference here is that you want to play with only shotgun against AWP + Rifles, in all matches. You need to get rid of the shotgun mate, or open a new account in noob bracket where shotties can carry games.

Funny thing is, I am actually quite good with the Nova and XM1014 shotgun in CSGO. They are some of my favorite weapons and I consistently do well with them due to the weapon balance. If I play with a fast-paced tempo, AWPers and riflemen aren't able to hit me or register that I'm approaching due to the way long range weaponry is balance in CSGO, as it should be in MWO.

No matter what distance I am away in MWO, a enemy peeks me, does a ridiculous amount of pinpoint damage , and then backs up, over and over and over again. Key point here is no matter what the range, and pinpoint at any range.

Edited by Jazzbandit1313, 27 April 2016 - 08:28 AM.

[El Bandito]

Jazzbandit1313, on 27 April 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

Funny thing is, I am actually quite good with the Nova and XM1014 shotgun in CSGO. They are some of my favorite weapons and I consistently do well with them due to the weapon balance. If I play with a fast-paced tempo, AWPers and riflemen aren't able to hit me or register that I'm approaching due to the way long range weaponry is balance in CSGO, as it should be in MWO.

No matter what distance I am away in MWO, a enemy peeks me, does a ridiculous amount of pinpoint damage , and then backs up, over and over and over again. Key point here is no matter what the range, and pinpoint at any range.

Meh, I had no-scoped plenty of people at near point blank range with my AWP back in my heyday. Long range weapons in CS is just as deadly in close range, especially big caliber guns such as AK47 and Deagle.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 April 2016 - 08:35 AM.

[Jazzbandit1313]

El Bandito, on 27 April 2016 - 08:34 AM, said:

Meh, I had no-scoped plenty of people at near point blank range with my AWP back in my heyday. Long range weapons in CS is just as deadly in close range.

Have you played CS:GO? Much better weapon balance with the AWP, making it a lot harder to use in my opinion. Much slower scope in/out time and movement speed make it more of a tradeoff to use and a lot less easy to do well with than the source or 1.6 AWP

[El Bandito]

Jazzbandit1313, on 27 April 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

Have you played CS:GO? Much better weapon balance with the AWP, making it a lot harder to use in my opinion. Much slower scope in/out time and movement speed make it more of a tradeoff to use and a lot less easy to do well with than the source or 1.6 AWP

I played 1.6, not CS:GO. The point remains though. However strong the shotgun is in CS, unless your move speed is fast, it is useless, unless when camping corners. Same deal in MWO. Piloting an Atlas with SRMs + AC20 in higher solo-q tier is at best situational. Medium SRM bomber or AC20 carrier have better luck due to speed. So play fast mechs if you want short ranged weapons.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 April 2016 - 08:45 AM.

[Ultimax]

The PSR system has a pile of flaws, however while your stats might be going up - you have indicated that you are not driving wins. (no/minimal change to W/L)

If you want to see the tier bar rise noticeably, you need wins - and unless you are playing builds that can carry the weight of a few PUG potatoes then you're going to feel stuck.

[Jazzbandit1313]

El Bandito, on 27 April 2016 - 08:44 AM, said:

I played 1.6, not CS:GO. The point remains though. However strong the shotgun is in CS, unless your move speed is fast, it is useless, unless when camping corners. Same deal in MWO. Piloting an Atlas with SRMs + AC20 in higher solo-q tier is at best situational. Medium SRM bomber or AC20 carrier have better luck due to speed. So play fast mechs if you want short ranged weapons.

Ok fine, if you'd like to reduce CSGO to that sure. The point still remains that I shouldn't have to build my mech a certain, same way every time to beat the enemy team due to the tier system/weapon balance, especially when I have no clue what the enemy team has for builds or the map choice. If there were proper weapon and weapon mechanic balance, every weapon would be just as good as the next. While this may sound boring, it would allow every player to do well with the builds they have fun in and create a very even playing field where players with more skill themselves shine and players that aren't as good don't, not good players in less-meta builds sucking and any skill level of player with meta loaded peekaboo crap does well. That's a bit exaggerated but you get my point

Edited by Jazzbandit1313, 27 April 2016 - 08:51 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I understand people's romantic fantasies with Big Stompy Robots brawling at close range. It's just that - a dreamer's playstyle that really does not belong on a battlefield.

If you want that type of playstyle, then you will have to accept the fact that other people prefer to play smart and not directly-inject themselves into enemy fire.

The Tier system puts more experienced players against more experienced players, as it is supposed to. Many experienced players play "to win" because it's fun to blow up the bad guys and also nice to be rewarded for it. You seriously cannot ask everyone to play poorly on purpose just to support your preferred playstyle.

Brawling is a good way to guarantee with 100% certainty that you will receive damage. Receiving damage makes you come closer to death. So, it's perfectly fine for players to seek the Avoidance of damage and death by striking from afar and then fading away.

Strike and fade is a very fun playstyle for many people because of the adrenaline rush and feeling g of satisfaction you get from picking your enemies apart. Brawling is just a "let's get this over-with" playstyle that leads to quick matches with little strategy.

"Low mounted weapons, Short-range guns, and slow lumbering Vehicles out in the open! Yeah!" - said no military tactician ever since WWI.

This was originally going to be a Mech Simulator, but now it's a little more shooty, but still close to a vehicle sim. Shortening the range of all weapons and forcing this to be a brawler's game would take away a huge amount of immersion for me, as you are forcing us all to play like idiot soldiers.

[Ultimax]

Jazzbandit1313, on 27 April 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

The point still remains that I shouldn't have to build my mech a certain, same way every time to beat the enemy team due to the tier system/weapon balance, especially when I have no clue what the enemy team has for builds or the map choice. If there were proper weapon and weapon mechanic balance, every weapon would be just as good as the next. While this may sound boring, it would allow every player to do well with the builds they have fun in and create a very even playing field where players with more skill themselves shine and players that aren't as good don't, not good players in less-meta builds sucking and any skill level of player with meta loaded peekaboo crap does well. That's a bit exaggerated but you get my point

You're hoping for a fantasy land.


No game company would be able to balance every weapon and mech so that 24 random team mates can bring 24 different mechs, with different load outs and different speeds - playing on about a dozen random maps and 4 different game modes - and have it be "balanced" - that's ridiculous.


Stop playing solo queue, stop playing rando-derp mode and expecting for it to be more.


If you want to play different builds, you will need a team and play team queue.


Just last night - I played these builds over a few hours with my team:

Mid-range IS Laser Vomit
2x UAC 5s + 2x PPCs
4x AC 5s

Other guys on my team played other stuff like dual CERPPC poptart Nova & PPC poptart Panther, SRM Brawler Griffins, Gauss+ER PPC Marauder/Timber Wolf, SRM Oxides/Jenner-IICs, Small Pulse Light Mechs.


You can play other things, your perspective on the game is limited because you have limited yourself.

Edited by Ultimax, 27 April 2016 - 08:59 AM.

[Jazzbandit1313]

Ultimax, on 27 April 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

Stop playing solo queue, stop playing rando-derp mode and expecting for it to be more.

If you want to play different builds, you will need a team and play team queue.

This is the problem. This is why I'm frustrated.

It has the potential to be more, it just needs more attention from PGI in terms of the weapon mechanics in use currently, convergence, balance, etc...

Edited by Jazzbandit1313, 27 April 2016 - 08:59 AM.

[Ultimax]

Jazzbandit1313, on 27 April 2016 - 08:59 AM, said:

This is the problem. This is why I'm frustrated.

It has the potential to be more, it just needs more attention from PGI in terms of the weapon mechanics in use currently, convergence, balance, etc...

No, it doesn't.

It doesn't have the potential to be more, because the players in the queues do not have potential to be more.

They are what they are.


Dude, for your own sanity's sake man, find a team to drop with - you can all load up on a brawl rush and play that way (SRM rushes are brutal when done correctly, and mid-range/long range teams will get hammered in close quarters).

Or you can all do PPCs/Poptarts, or all ERs or just bring a bunch of mid-range and skirmishers - you can do these things because its a team game and having a team work together is way more important than the specifics of every single build.

Sure, there is a point where every last percent and slot decision can matter - you're not going to see that very much if at all in the group queue. Cohesion is priority one.

[Mad Strike]

People says tier 2 pugland is hell but once you get on tier 1 everything goes back to normal.

[Jazzbandit1313]

Ultimax, on 27 April 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

No, it doesn't.

It doesn't have the potential to be more, because the players in the queues do not have potential to be more.

They are what they are.

Dude, for your own sanity's sake man, find a team to drop with - you can all load up on a brawl rush and play that way (SRM rushes are brutal when done correctly, and mid-range/long range teams will get hammered in close quarters).

Well I appreciate your pessimism here, but I do have hope for this game and the community that plays it.

Also, I have experienced a lot of team gameplay, and I just don't have as much fun as PUGing (when I actually have decent brawls). Rallying the PUG teams is so much fun, yet, due to what I've discussed in this thread, rarely ever works.

[Revis Volek]

Why does everyone want to be perpetually bad and just club seals for a living?

[El Bandito]

Revis Volek, on 27 April 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Why does everyone want to be perpetually bad and just club seals for a living?

Same reason why people try to climb Hearthstone ladder with gimmicky deck and then failing at that, stay at level 20 and farm newbies. Fun and effective are two different things.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 April 2016 - 09:26 AM.