653 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Pat Kell, on 17 September 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

don't forget the part where you sand paper off all the armor on enemy mechs so you can pad your damage numbers and blame other people for coming in and stealing your kills.

I'll never forget the quote. I was dropping with 9 other people in a good premade team, one of the pugs had an LRM boat.

'You're killing them so fast most of them are dead before my LRMs even get there!'

Exactly man, exactly.

Couldn't get him to understand the irony of his own statement. He literally could have been a disco and it would have had minimal impact on the results of the match.

This is why people in LRM boats brag up their damage scores while having a bad win/loss. You're just vulturing damage that's minimally useful in actually winning the match. 1K damage in my 1C BLR was a significant boon to my team for probably 1, 1.5 waves. 1K damage in an LRM Stalker, given that 2/3rds of my damage would be splashed or wasted is like 300 damage in direct fire if even that. If I only get 300 damage out of an assault I had a meager wave.

People get attached to bad ideas. The desire to stick to bad ideas instead of adapt to what is successful and recognize that adaptation as getting better at the game instead of 'giving up' is part of what tends to split people on a self-improvement arc from people who are trying to justify a lack of success and reasons not to put forward the effort (and sense of risk of failure) of trying to improve.

LRMs are not bad because people are mean. LRMs are bad because in the mechanics of this game they are inferior to direct fire and the skills involved in LRMs are bad habits relative to the skills you develop learning to get good with direct fire. It's not a moral thing or a like/dislike thing. It's the same reason wheels are around instead of oblong. What works better is what works better and using what works better helps you get better at the exact habits that are successful.

Edited by MischiefSC, 17 September 2016 - 08:32 PM.

[MovinTarget]

Pat Kell, on 17 September 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

don't forget the part where you sand paper off all the armor on enemy mechs so you can pad your damage numbers and blame other people for coming in and stealing your kills.

B-b-b-but I did 800 dmg with that lrm80 mech... forget that I was stationary for 5 minutes while my team moved off to push the enemy and a locust took me out b/c I had no backup weapons... I still justified my existence... right?

[MovinTarget]

MischiefSC, on 17 September 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

LRMs are bad because in the mechanics of this game they are inferior to direct fire and the skills involved in LRMs are bad habits relative to the skills you develop learning to get good with direct fire. It's not a moral thing or a like/dislike thing. It's the same reason wheels are around instead of oblong. What works better is what works better and using what works better helps you get better at the exact habits that are successful.

And they have to be bad to some extent... what other weapons platform allows some mechs to do 80+ in one alpha? Without really "aiming"?

I can see the allure because you get to thinking you can do so much damage, but if you are not trying to take enemies off the field as fast as possible, you are not helping your team's/faction's cause.

Can they be used? Yes, but you need:

1) All the fixin's (TAG, Narc, Target Decay module, etc) to maximize the effectiveness
2) Have a mentality of "I will get my own GD locks" unless you're bringing friends that know to spot/tag/narc for you.
3) Back up weapons. Enough that lights won't think they can just run up and ankle-bite you to death.
4) Friends to ensure the efficacy of your loadout (see #2)

Bottom line, either bring friends or bring mechs that can take care of business, and themselves, as if you have no support on the team.

[Kael Posavatz]

They are only useful (not good, but useful) in that you can use them to affect the behavior of the enemy. A lot of PUGs when they start taking LRM fire will go to ground, or move to a different axis of attack, making it possible for someone very experienced to split up a team or herd them.

The converse of that is if you are running LRMs and run into a team (a team by definition has internal discipline), or a group of PUGs with someone who will provide discipline, or even just someone experienced and aggressive, they will NOT take cover. Instead they will go 'Oh look, a missile boat, I'm gonaa kill it', at which point you are swiftly down a mech and not particularly helpful to your team at all.

[Jumping Gigolo]

crashlogic, on 17 September 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

Look I don't give a flying **** what you think about LRMS, it has no bearing on what I do. But I do want to make sure the forum knows you were taking my quote entirely out of context to make what ever point you are trying to make. Since you are full of BS when you quote me, I am suspicious about the veracity of anything you say.

Lol you're the one who quoted on my post. If you dont give a damn on what I think about lurms then just don't quote on my post. If those quotes that I referenced here sounds really familiar and applies to you...then i apologize. I understand that truth really hurts It punches through the CT like a dual gauss.

Again, I'm not against Lurmers. I love lurmers, especially if they are my enemies.


====

Here's one more quote from yesterday (not intended to you crashlogic. but if you feel it applies to you, then its not my problem anymore):


"Guys why the f**k are we pushing out?" - says the untouched LRM maddog who clearly have no idea why you need to push out with your 1st wave damaged mechs when you got a big kill lead in Hold mode.

MischiefSC, on 17 September 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

I'll never forget the quote. I was dropping with 9 other people in a good premade team, one of the pugs had an LRM boat.

'You're killing them so fast most of them are dead before my LRMs even get there!'

hehehe some lurm aficionados here might question the veracity of that quote ;P

Edited by Jumping Gigolo, 18 September 2016 - 07:48 AM.

[Jumping Gigolo]

xX PUG Xx, on 17 September 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

(May as well stir the pot)

Pulled out 1800 damage 6 kills and 10 KMDD from a triple MDD LRM deck this morning.....









.....we lost horribly (something like 48 -23) but **I** was a shooperstar

Then two matches later pulled 3200 in a DAKKAdeck, so yeah LRM's can be useful but direct fire trumps them in capable hands. Not saying I'm capable but if I have my MDD your gonna feel the pitter patter of CLRM5's over and over and over and...well you get the point.

hahaha Puggy

you lost because there's there not enough lurms in your team.

[Jumping Gigolo]

question to the non-lurmers:

1.) How many times have you seen a lurm player (either from your team or the enemy) is the last man remaining..with 2-3 more mechs remaining when everyone is already permadead?

2.) Have you been in very close Counter-attack/Hold drops where the score is like 46-46 or 47-47. How will the match probably end if the last guy/s in your team is/are 2x lurmers when the remaining enemy/enemies are brawlers?

[MovinTarget]

Jumping,

Don't be silly, most of these games are over mid-way throught the second wave except when its attack and there are objectives that can be rushed.

Besides your question is like getting pitched a basketball in a softball game.

Again this really not about lrms, this about people dropping in a teamwork dependent game and unwilling/unable to play in a manner conducive to winning. Do it in QP thats only 10 minutes of my life lost (plus i can drop in another mech once i die)... FP is 3 times the time investment (often more) and you can't start another fp until this one's over.

Shouldn't really judge during this event. People are falling all over themselves to get 'dat kmdd!

So this is why i stopped harping on lurms. They are low hanging fruit to a larger playstyle issue.

Stand the line with me.
Share armor with me.
Bleed with me.

Do this and i won't question your weapons selections... unless its flat out redonkulous!

Edited by MovinTarget, 18 September 2016 - 09:19 AM.

[Kurni]

Jumping Gigolo, on 18 September 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

question to the non-lurmers:

1.) How many times have you seen a lurm player (either from your team or the enemy) is the last man remaining..with 2-3 more mechs remaining when everyone is already permadead?

Last one, 3rd drop, lurm Atlas.... (and last alive player)

Quote

2.) Have you been in very close Counter-attack/Hold drops where the score is like 46-46 or 47-47. How will the match probably end if the last guy/s in your team is/are 2x lurmers when the remaining enemy/enemies are brawlers?

No very close fp match with lurmers...

[SlightlyMobileTurret]

1) Not very often. Especially IS side, when people blow up to ST destruction (and lots of LRM boats carry ammo in legs/torso) I think I've seen it happen twice. It's far more common to see a light running around not knowing what to do being the last guy alive.

2) Generally, if the brawlers aren't dumb enough to walk across the open, they win. However, Boreal with LRMers being clever? I'm not so sure.
--

Not defending LRMs, I hate them. Just playing the devil's advocate.

I'm okay with LRMs as long as they're not all you've got.
THAT would be an issue. "Hold locks pl0x" or "LRM boat here, locks please" put me in a dilemma. Do I open up in VoIP calling them [insert name here], or do I appreciate them being upfront about what they brought?

Lots of pugs tell YOU off for pushing or regrouping while they stay 800 m away from you (I guess they really take "Keep your friends close and your enemies closer" to heart). Those are the worst. That's the poor attitude you want to not see in CW.

Also, people haven't pointed this out, but sometimes a medium mech is a far better LRM platform than an assault. a Treb-7M or a HBK-4J is mobile, capable of getting it's own locks, modestly high DPS (quirks, brother), backup lasers. It's also not that much of a waste of tonnage. A couple of those and a heavy laser/dakka deck could work really well.

OTOH, a Mauler (as seen in Puglandia, MAL-1R specials) with LRMs is such a waste of tonnage when it could be ripping them to shreds with Dakka. Doubled on a hot map.

(There ARE good assault LRM-boats DPS wise, but still not that CW-efficient - AWS-8R for starters)

Experienced Treb/4J pilot support? Good
Noob in MAL-1R/KGC-0000? I want to drink chlorox.

[crashlogic]

Well I like LRMS, I know their limitations, but that is why I like them. I can point and click with a 4cerll mech with the best of them. I am a decent sniper with lasers or ppcs, and I can brawl. But to me these things are fairly repetitive. Find a good spot and peek and poke, or lumber across the field and pray you don't get shot to **** before you can close with the enemy and click your alpha trigger two or three times while trying to turn your torso. Its the same. It was fun for a while in my jenner with the srms, but even the light mech circle of death is the same.
On top of this, most players in PUG games don't do any of this well, and doing any of these bad is less than useless. At least a LRM boat will only be useless. So all these get gud hypothetical examples fo how good direct fire is are fundamentally flawed and simply reinforce the stompage.
Now the truth is most players in LRM boats are really bad too. I cringe when I see someone asking for locks before the game starts. These are not players who inspire confidence in their abilities (though hey i can be wrong).
Lrms are hunters - they need to be looking for enemy players who are screwing up. They need to take advantage of terrain like any other mech, but they should be drawing enemy lrm fire and snipers. If i can get a whole lance to chase and kill me, the team can captialize on that. Lrm boats can keep snipers honest, a lot of times a incoming missile warning from 5 lrms forces a sniper behind cover, and if he doesn't flinch, then he gets punished. I also load up a couple of medium lasers so i can fight in a brawl (I like four but the heat is an issue) though my best spot in a brawl is proabbaly swatting at lights trying to kill the assaults). Lrms are area denial and decoy weapons. A buch of lrms can make opponents cautious of entere a particular corridor. Or they can draw sizable groups over to reinforce against a potential push.

The last reason I like LRMS is because of people who write how horrible they are in posts like this. Its like reverse trolling - I bring and LRM boat and everyone is frothing at the mouth. Saying they are useless, whining when they get killed, saying they are OP, and whining that my skillless lrming *** stole their kill-after I took half the enemy armour and components away.
So really I do not care what your opinion is, I will bring them any way. Thank you come again.

jumping, you misqoted me in your post. That's why I put it up. My worst game ever statement had nothing to do with LRMS.

[Drunk Canuck]

Jumping Gigolo, on 18 September 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

question to the non-lurmers:

1.) How many times have you seen a lurm player (either from your team or the enemy) is the last man remaining..with 2-3 more mechs remaining when everyone is already permadead?

2.) Have you been in very close Counter-attack/Hold drops where the score is like 46-46 or 47-47. How will the match probably end if the last guy/s in your team is/are 2x lurmers when the remaining enemy/enemies are brawlers?

A lot actually, because as many people have pointed out, myself included, that LRM's promote bad habits and they don't promote team play. LRM's are selfish, users are required to rely on other people and other equipment like UAV's, NARC and TAG in order to unleash damage on a target, not to mention you factor in travel time for the missiles (and they have had velocity buffs before and they literally ruined the game and made it infuriating to play, especially since we had a lot less ECM Mech's and almost no dual AMS Mech's or modules back then). And the counters are significantly easier because AMS, Radar Deprivation, ECM and overall just using cover makes them far less effective.

[crashlogic]

But drunk, I don't ask for locks, I get locks for other players. I dump lrms on targets picked by the caller and get in position to do so. Travel time and countermeansers creat problems, but those problems are WHY I like LRMs. Damage, all damage helps the team. I get a lot of components destroyed too, so by the time you are engaging a mech I have targeted for a while, he is already in trouble. if I am doing my job right. Do you really think If I have taken off have his armour, your hob as a brawlers is not easier? And If I am by you in a brawl, I am drawing fire too, and sharing the MDD's limited armour, and dumping LRMs over you to give the pilot shake and force him to torso twist and generally make your day better. Also when you ar brawlingin your heavy, i can swat at lights and cover your *** in a fight.
LRMS are fire support, they should be making your job easier.

Of course assault mechs turned into lrm boats make me cry....
Some mechs like the MDD and Archer are meant to be lrm carriers. A Kodiak Packing LRMS is a waste, its just not what the mech was designed to do. Sort of like the MDD-C with Dual gauss....

Edited by crashlogic, 18 September 2016 - 10:37 AM.

[MovinTarget]

So Crashlogic, i want to see if i understand your position, if i get it wrong, bear in mind i am not trying to be snarky...

It seems you are liking lrms because you like the challenge of overcoming the inherent flaws and challenges that come with them. If that is the case and you are proactively trying to do this without asking for locks and stuff, i can't really fault you for it, so long as you are trying to be a team player about it.

Not that i have the right to judge anyone, i know this... i just try to understand others' positions...

Oh and also...



RA!AAAAAAAAWR OMFG WTF I WILL BRING DUAL GUASS MDD IF WANT AND FIRE FROM MY GD KNEES WHILE TO HILL HUMP!!! WTF NOOB GTFO U DON'T KNOW ANYTHING!!!

*ahem*

Sorry, had to be done

Edited by MovinTarget, 18 September 2016 - 10:49 AM.

[crashlogic]

That's about it Movin. I find lrms to be an interesting tactical problem and I enjoy that. My argument here is that it is entirely possible that a good LRM player brings more to the team than a bad laservomit player.

[MovinTarget]

As long as he/she is trying to be a team player and understands that the rest of the team may not play in a manner conducive to the build of the one player... can't really ask for more without being in a group together and coordinating builds.

[VorpalAnvil]

Jumping Gigolo, on 16 September 2016 - 02:21 AM, said:

Some quotes I saw from last weeks FP event:

"Shoot that locust's legs" - pilot of an LRM Hunchback-2C giving pointer to a brawling ACH. The LRM Hunch2C pilot took him 10 secs to kill an already cherry red CT enemy Hunchback...with lurms.

"Why an Ice Ferret?" - anxiously asked by a pilot of an LRM Shadowcat during a scouting drop/

"This is my worst game so far" - pilot of an LRM Atlas attacking @ Hellebore vs CJF defenders pushing out Beta gate

"This team is so stupid!" - whined the LRM Orion (in All Chat) while undergoing through the ordeals of getting babyseal clubbed in Emerald Taiga.


Doesn't matter how good you "market" your so-called Combined Arms Warfare/supression mastery/AMS hunting expertise nor the claim how good you are in LRMS in a sense that you become a liability to their teammates. Good for you. Congrats. But still the reality remain that 99.5% of the lurming population will be murder deathballed in CW/FP. So to the 0.5% very good lurming pilots; please do encourage them to continue bringing LRM in CW/FP. We (direct fire players) really don't mind as long they (the lurmers) don't mind getting farmed to their dropzone.

Agreed. I whole heartedly support lurms. Providing of course they are on the enemy team.

[Pat Kell]

crashlogic, on 18 September 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

That's about it Movin. I find lrms to be an interesting tactical problem and I enjoy that. My argument here is that it is entirely possible that a good LRM player brings more to the team than a bad laservomit player.

Not sure that pointing out that a you are better for the team in an LRM boat than a bad player in a laser vomit because you would be even better for the team in a laser vomit and the other guy would be even worse for the team in a LRM boat...unless of course that person or yourself suffer from frame rate issues which is about the only legitimate and understandable reason I have seen in all the posts I have read where people are trying to justify their usage.

Your point is of course valid, it is possible that this scenario exists but I'm not sure why your making it since the post isn't trying to compare you in a LRM boat to someone else in a laser vomit. It's trying to get the point across that you in a laser vomit is better for the team than you in an LRM boat.

Edited by Pat Kell, 18 September 2016 - 11:23 AM.

[MovinTarget]

Thinking about what Crashlogic is saying and this is my thought:

LRMs = Basic operation is easy, but to make them (consistently) great is hard

Direct Fire weapons in general = Learning curve is a bit less... curved moving from mediocre to good

Guass = Basic operation is hard, but once you have timing down, learn to not twitch when releasing... its pretty awesome.

Edited by MovinTarget, 18 September 2016 - 11:26 AM.

[Jumping Gigolo]

Some people here just dont get it. I don't care if you bring LRM. I don't care how you use them. I don't care if you are a liability to the team or you an asset to the team.

Just stop whining in-game and blaming your teammates (especialy if they dont survive enough to hold locks for you). Just quitely lurm and if you get roflpugstomped just keep quiet during the feed frenzy.


oh by the way.. we just fed on a couple of these in our drops today:






So tasty.... also a couple of Lurm Awesomes, Lum Atlas, lurm catapults. We even saw a lurm Mauler (with 2x LRM15) yum yum. i forgot to take a snapchat coz he died so fast.