321 replies to this topic

[White Bear 84]

Nightmare1, on 23 June 2016 - 04:31 PM, said:

ROFL, I've gone toe-to-toe with Kodiaks and won via That's more a function of concentrated group fire at that point; there's no fix for that because Teamwork is OP. The only real way to fix it is to prevent teams, which is something I don't think any of us want to see, lol.

Concentrated team fire which is more than often.. ...focused alpha strikes.

[Moldur]

Ah, so people say they don't want MWO to become call of duty because of TTK, yet many complained about the hand-holding minimap getting taken away.

Khobai, on 23 June 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

The main problem is 12v12

Quickplay needs to be 8v8, only CW should be 12v12 (because it has respawns)

Even the MWO world tournament isnt 12v12... its 8v8 for a reason... because 12v12 makes TTK suck and it makes individual player skill less meaningful and as a result its not as enjoyable to play or spectate.

Is that the given reason, or an inference?

[Koniving]

Cathy, on 23 June 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

Nah M.W.O isn't as bad as that, I saw this and jumped on the founders programme, half drunk, o.k very drunk, there and then, at 1am in the morning, amazed I could read off my credit card number to be honest.

I saw the G.I.T.S fps and though wow what a load of crap, which is rather meh, as that remains my favourite Anime of all time, and was looking forward to giving it a try.

One thing to remember, is MWO was far more dynamic back then.
The meta changed daily, then again tweaks kept happening every single week.
But more importantly, I had the thrill of being a Jenner, on an unknown map, and as I rounded about some assaults and heavies exchanging fire I saw anther Jenner who was also stock. He shot and ran. I gave chase. For the better part of 2 minutes I'm chasing him or he cuts around and gives a brief chase to me. Heat rising, things are looking bleak, I see water and remember from MW3, water accelerates cooling! I dive in, and yes water does quicken my cooling!

He's still on land, and when he can't handle the heat he runs up and rams me! O_O I'm knocked down! Omg omg omg omg, I get up and go full throttle but he turns into me from a standstill; my momentum throws him down and I jumpjet-and-spin-around and blast lasers at his leg. A short time later he manages to escape while limping after he jump-kicked me. As my mech stands back up I've completely lost him. So I wait a moment to cool down from above 90% -- which back then heatsinks melted so overheating just became easier and easier. I send out a message to my team. No answer. I send another, asking where the fight is. No one answers. (Can't answer if you're dead.) A gauss rifle shot whizzes by. BAM! instant arm destruction. Another one. BAM! Instant arm destruction. I'm also already out of missiles. FWOOSH! PPCs hit my leg breaking it. I still can't see where the heck it is coming from!!! Then I see 1...3...7 mechs coming at me. Behind the leg of an Atlas I can see a Jenner peeking out. They all wait until almost point blank and surround me.
"Guys, I'm in a really bad situation. Is there anyone alive?"
The Atlas stops dead in front of me and beside him, there's a Hunchback that waves his arms at me like a windshield wiper.
"Welcome to MWO."

They all fired and ripped my mech limb from limb.
Within minutes I bought Veterans.
The next day I went Legendary.

But this... isn't that same thrilling game with roles and such. It is but it isn't. Speed makes roles pretty irrelevant. Firepower and rapid kills makes a lot of other tactical play pretty irrelevant. It's become too fast in movement that large maps feel small, too quick in kills that tactical combat and coordination is often a pipe dream rather than an act of desperation against a truly intimidating foe...

"War... War just isn't what it used to be."

[Nightmare1]

White Bear 84, on 23 June 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

Concentrated team fire which is more than often.. ...focused alpha strikes.

Precisely. Individually, alphas really aren't that bad. TTK is often 30 seconds or so, give or take. That's fairly good. It's concentrated team fire that is truly powerful.

To be honest, I usually use group firing instead of alpha striking since I don't boat all that much. That is still very potent though in a team situation. At the end of the day, it's all about the focused damage, and the best way to focus damage is to smash things apart in unison. That's the main reason why TTK can't be increased artificially; even if alpha strikes were to be halved, you would still have enough incoming enemy fire in a concentrated volley to insta-kill single Mechs.

Nerfing alphas just makes 1v1 or 1v2 brawls needlessly long and boring.

[Red Shrike]

Moldur, on 23 June 2016 - 04:46 PM, said:

Ah, so people say they don't want MWO to become call of duty because of TTK, yet many complained about the hand-holding minimap getting taken away.

It took a few matches, but in the end I was doing just fine with the static minimap. Heck, I would settle for this.


I heard that the devs resolved an issue that prevented a heat scale with penalties, so here's to hoping they'll ditch the power draw system and go for a heat scale with exponential penalties instead.

Edited by Red Shrike, 23 June 2016 - 05:04 PM.

[White Bear 84]

Koniving, on 23 June 2016 - 04:48 PM, said:

One thing to remember, is MWO was far more dynamic But this... isn't that same thrilling game with roles and such. It is but it isn't. Speed makes roles pretty irrelevant. Firepower and rapid kills makes a lot of other tactical play pretty irrelevant. It's become too fast in movement that large maps feel small, too quick in kills that tactical combat and coordination is often a pipe dream rather than an act of desperation against a truly intimidating foe... "War... War just isn't what it used to be."

So speaketh the word of Koniving, amen.

[PhoenixFire55]

kapusta11, on 10 May 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

Now it's 30-35 FLD with crap speed vs 54+ laser alpha.

54+ at what range? 350m? Pfft ...

[PhoenixFire55]

Davegt27, on 16 May 2016 - 04:17 PM, said:

It’s hard to "get good" if you only pull the trigger 3 or 4 times each drop

No, its only hard to "git gud" if you aren't even trying and instead blaming alphas, TTK or whatever for your own failures, which are apparent if you only pull it 3 or 4 times.

[PhoenixFire55]

Kotev, on 16 May 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

It was more fun in closed beta when we had longer fights and very exciting standoffs. Today mechs with 80 dmg alpha with 2 coolshots can kill you quick. Where is fun of that?!?!?

It was fun in closed beta because NOTHING registered. SRMs didn't register at all, lasers didn't register at all, PPCs barely registered ever, the only thing that had more or less adequate hit reg was Gauss and ACs. Thus all mechs had way too much survivability simply because out of 4 shots you took, only 1 actually applied the damage.

As for your cool story about 80 damage alpha mechs ... name one for starters.

[PhoenixFire55]

Targetloc, on 16 May 2016 - 04:53 PM, said:

I always felt the game was the most fun during the beta before double heatsinks were implemented. That plus 8v8 meant you were taking less than 50% the focus fire you take on average now.

Altases seemed way, way tougher then. I almost exclusively piloted the Hunchback and I remember every time you ran into an Atlas it was a serious choice whether you would try to focus it down (which you really couldn't do quickly because the heat cap was so low) or count on the fact that he was also fairly heat capped and try to put terrain between you and focus his friends.

It was a completely different game when assaults were these massive pieces that would plunk down and you'd either need 3 or 4 mechs (half your team) to focus them down quickly, or you needed to just deal with them being there, tensely counting down the seconds before they'd have the heat capacity to lash out and smash something.

It had its own balance issues like gausskats, and most fights devolved into circle of death brawls, but there was a lot more focus on piloting and trying to force position so you'd have a good shot when the heat cleared or you'd be out of LOS or behind the target.

In a medium there were way less instances of getting smashed instantly, and being able to get up close on heavier mechs and use tighter turning to limit their shots. A calculated move to cut tight in front and take a shot so that you'd get behind and out-turn them for a couple shots was a lot better when 5 seconds meant 1 or 2 shots for 20-40 damage versus 3 alphas for 70-100 damage.

Fights in CB were MUCH more static and with far less focus on piloting / repositioning. Your typical assault moved at 48kph and it was fine, mediums that moved 75kph were fine. There were no clans, so a weapon with 500m range was a long range weapon.

Atlases seemed tougher because they were the only 100t mech, and the next mech in line was Awesome at 80t.

As I've already said in my previous post, only 1 out of 4 shots you took actually registered the damage, thus greater TKK. Lights were literally invulnerable due to lagshield. I can easily recall me and a buddy taking two Ravens and killing 4-5 enemy mechs fighting 2vs8 all by ourselves.

Most importantly, playerbase was different, people were true BT fans, they played to pew pew robots not to "win at all costs", thus all sorts of stupid builds and silly tactics instead of doing only what works. Out of 100 founders only 2-3 actually played well. Nowadays much more people learned to play and maximize the efficiency of their mechs and their strategies, thus lowering TTK for your average player, while their own remained the same.

I have no issues with TTK. None whatsoever. Sometimes I die in 3 seconds because I make a bad move and get evaporated by 3-4 mechs shooting me. And that is MY fault, that it how it is supposed to be. When I get to duel with players of about equal skill it NEVER finishes fast, 1v1 situation is the only way to measure TTK, and TTK in 1v1 is perfectly fine.

[PhoenixFire55]

Lykaon, on 23 June 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

KDK 3 fires you twist arm pops off it fires again you twist side torso breached fires again other arm pops off fires again and your mech is down from an XL engine kill. The entire time twisting and not having the opertunity to actually fight. Just not getting whacked in 1 second and "tripling" the survival time all the way up to three fire cycles of a clan UAC10.

A 65 ton mech can have without quirks 30 structure in a side torso. It may also have up to 60 armor on that torso so let's assume a typical 50/10 split front to rear leaving 80 armor on the side torso.

4x clan UAC10s a typical loadout on a KDK 3 does 80 damage in less than .5 seconds.
An Executioner can have 7x small pulse and a UAC20 that can also tear a heavy mech in half in under a second
6x UAC5 Direwolf can deal out 120 damage in under 2 seconds.(1.66 second cooldown on a clan UAC5)

So yeah TTK is fine if you like the nigh instant "BLAM! headshot! game play" of a typical FPS.

If you are facetanking a Clan 100t assault in your 50-60t mech at ranges where all UAC10 / UAC5 slugs become pinpoint hits you are seriously doing it wrong. Quad UAC10 Kodiak isn't all that fast, and needless to say if you can't keep yourself positioned outside of a 40 degrees sector in front of a Dire while being twice as fast, well ... guess who is to blame. Try not to stand still for pew pew and you'll be fine.

[PhoenixFire55]

White Bear 84, on 23 June 2016 - 04:14 PM, said:

In tier 1 drops, matches can turn in an instance - player aim is good and mechs go down fast..

TTK definitely needs a bit of work, which probably as per usual comes down to dealing with alpha strikes and boating..

Nothing to do with either ...

There are no real T1 matches. It is always 3-4 T1's with a bunch of 2s and 3s. And it always goes like 2-3 derps running somewhere to get themselves killed instantly then crying about TTK or smth alike (because 3v12 TTK is low, duh) and then 12v9 can be turned into a massacre fairly easy.

A mech goes down fast only when shot by multiple mechs, and that problem has nothing to do with TTK.

Red Shrike, on 23 June 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

But what makes TTK an issue is things like people boating weapons to get single click 80 point damage and the the ability to sit at 99% heat without any penalties whatsoever.

So what do you do after said boat clicked and now sits at 99%? Let me guess, you ran away from it allowing it to cool off in peace rather then keep pressing it and kill it.
So yeah, of course alphas are such a huge issue ...

Khobai, on 23 June 2016 - 04:32 PM, said:

The main problem is 12v12

Quickplay needs to be 8v8, only CW should be 12v12 (because it has respawns)

Even the MWO world tournament isnt 12v12... its 8v8 for a reason... because 12v12 makes TTK suck and it makes individual player skill less meaningful and as a result its not as enjoyable to play or spectate.

I wouldn't say its the main problem. No real objectives other than kill dem all means people always stick together in a giant ball of death, and obviously if ball of death finds a lone mech it kills it near instantly.

But yeah, there was no real reason to go to 12v12 instead of 8v8, just like there was no reason to nuke old maps that were meant to be played in 8v8 in the first place.

But then again, just like when it happened, we are all on the Island^TM.

White Bear 84, on 23 June 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

Concentrated team fire which is more than often.. ...focused alpha strikes.

How does it matter if its alpha strikes or not? You are talking about several mechs shooting one. Its going to be dead in a matter of seconds even if all they do is chain fire small lasers.

[Red Shrike]

PhoenixFire55, on 24 June 2016 - 04:57 AM, said:

So what do you do after said boat clicked and now sits at 99%? Let me guess, you ran away from it allowing it to cool off in peace rather then keep pressing it and kill it.
So yeah, of course alphas are such a huge issue ...

If he has hit me for the whole duration of his large (pulse) lasers, I'll have a cored CT. And if I decide to run after him with a cored CT (or even with just a dented CT) I will die within seconds, not because he fires again, but because he has friends, and he damn well knows it.
Similarly, when playing World of Tanks against a tank with a long reload, you don't charge around the corner after he shoots because you know that 3 of his teammates are sitting there waiting for you.

I just wish people would stop peeking and poking like they're playing World of Tanks.

Edited by Red Shrike, 24 June 2016 - 05:52 AM.

[Johnny Z]

Moldur, on 23 June 2016 - 04:46 PM, said:

Ah, so people say they don't want MWO to become call of duty because of TTK, yet many complained about the hand-holding minimap getting taken away.

Is that the given reason, or an inference?

The same players cried to the heavens when coolshot was added to I bet. Coolshot only made the entire situation worse.

I think before some of the peeps making this game thought TTK was to high so enters the OP clans and coolshot. Then they realize that the details of piloting coupled with the fact there are 100 low TTK games out there, that a higher TTK is better.

Mechs were supposed to be like knights or samurai at the height of their effectiveness, or tanks to... low TTK was never a good option really.

On the bright side balance and gameplay is really good in game, slightly hurt by the rescale and the ever present super high alphas. Cheats to of course, wanted to add that to cover everything that's really standing out.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 June 2016 - 06:11 AM.

[Commander A9]

Time to kill is fine.

Time to kill is only too fast when one idiot gets focused down by 12 guys.

So learn to play, and stop exposing yourself for 12 guys to focus you down.

This game isn't about 1-vs-1 batchalls and zellbrigen duels. This is Mechwarrior. This is brutal. This is a war game. You get shot by 12 people, you're going to die in seconds.

[Johnny Z]

Commander A9, on 24 June 2016 - 06:10 AM, said:

Time to kill is fine.

Time to kill is only too fast when one idiot gets focused down by 12 guys.

So learn to play, and stop exposing yourself for 12 guys to focus you down.

This game isn't about 1-vs-1 batchalls and zellbrigen duels. This is Mechwarrior. This is brutal. This is a war game. You get shot by 12 people, you're going to die in seconds.

Its not fine in some situations. Had the ct of my king crab 110 amor and internals burned out in under 2 seconds by one enemy mech 2 days ago. That shouldn't be possible. But its happening. Some kind of lag could have made it seem worse than it was but the fact remains super high alphas are the worste part of the game bar none at the moment.

With coolshot and the mentality to exploit/cheat this is entirely possible for a player to run around and ruin a lot of matches. Period.

Related to the COF brigade, COF like they are saying would work, wouldn't have helped my KC at all in that situation. Results being COF wouldnt help the TTK situation at all really. It would hurt legit players worse than botters/cheats to and that's the last thing legit players need.

In fact COF may even push mech load outs more towards max damage and speed and make armor even less relevant. To top it all off. This game is about armored combat not about low TTK twitch clones.

Not sure if this is related or not but I got head shot by a SRM jenner the other day. Yes all the SRM's went to the head. How is that even possible to be head shot by a SRM jenner? Near the start of the match no less.

Edited by Johnny Z, 24 June 2016 - 06:32 AM.

[Lehmund]

With the new "ghost heat" system coming up, this debate will likely change depending on how it is implemented. The current system allows for high alphas that, if pinpoint CT fielded by a heavy or Assault (laser vomit comes to mind), you'll die on the second alpha, about 3-4 seconds after the first, assuming you don't torso twist, of course (1v1).

Of course, this is noob play if that happens currently and you can't do anything if you're being shot by 5+ alpha strikes no matter how much twisting you'll do.

What was explained about "Ghost Heat 2.0" seems to indicate that PGI wants to make mech pilots spread out their weapons fire over longer periods by penalizing high alphas through extra heat scale, thus forcing mechs to stay longer face to face to deliver the same damage as the previous alpha, or do their Alpha and perhaps having to cool down way longer before being able to shoot all weapons again.

This would promote longer mech lives in general and will provide you with the sense of longer survivability you all seem to be craving. I do mean sense because logically, it only means that instead of dealing with Alpha strikes, you may deal with the same weapons "chain fired" instead.

On the other hand, pilots under such systems, to optimize DPS may just have hybrids builds and use their different systems at different ranges for different targets to maximize effectiveness... and if that is the case, TTK will increase most likely too.

I'm looking forward to seeing what PGI comes with in this regard as I do think taking 2 large alphas in the CT due to bad timing around bends and dying is a bit distressing in a MW game and would prefer getting some decent armor shot off and being able to continue fighting a bit more.

Btw, in this case, TTK while being shot by a few opponent mechs would be just as short 'cause of the dps.

We'll see.

[Mole]

I think TTK when you are 1 on 1 with another 'mech is pretty good. What makes TTK feel bad is there is very rarely an instance of 1v1 fights happening and a whole lot of several 'mechs firing on the same target at the same time.

[PhoenixFire55]

Red Shrike, on 24 June 2016 - 05:51 AM, said:

If he has hit me for the whole duration of his large (pulse) lasers, I'll have a cored CT. And if I decide to run after him with a cored CT (or even with just a dented CT) I will die within seconds, not because he fires again, but because he has friends, and he damn well knows it.

And you don't have "friends"? I think it says it all really. Everyone is playing for himself rather then for the team. THAT is the reason for peek-a-boo alpha strike meta, not the game mechanics.

[PhoenixFire55]

Johnny Z, on 24 June 2016 - 06:13 AM, said:

la la la useless trash la la la

We've heard this story of yours so very often its gotten old.
Everyone but you cheats, hacks, headshots everyone with SRMs, has 100 damage alphas that they can fire 5 times in a row and yadda yadda.

Your expert opinion on the matter of TTK is very important for us, we will send you your wagon of tinfoil shortly.